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The Magic of the Elves


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#1
Kaldelar

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Oooh, got you all "Let's make magic rings!" there, didn't I? Well, not that far from it.


Now this theory of mine is supported by very little and open-to-interpretation evidence, and is by no means supported by anything other than my own thoughts. I do like to believe however, that the Elves of Arlathan did not use Blood magic (it just seems so out of character for them, having encountered and played them in the game) as we know it in modern-day Thedas. Worth of note: “Guess” is the predominant word here. 
 

Hypothesis: The Elves knew of two types of magic, and I’ll call them in this hypothesis “Fade magic” (which is magic granted through the Fade and is known by all save Dwarves, who cannot touch the Fade) and “Old magic” (which is one of the magics worked by the Elves of Arlathan), the former being perhaps the flashier, though ultimately the less powerful. Based on how the Elves can bend ironbark to their will and shape it (is this exclusive to ironbark only, or can they bend more types of wood?) and the magic of the Keepers being considered “different” from the Circle mages, and is more nature oriented. It should be noted however that it would seem that both types of magic stem from the Fade, but of this I cannot be sure and if my conclusion is more correct, then they are not really different but simply on different levels.


My guess is then that the ancient Elves knew how to will something other than the Fade energy to affect reality: this something is the fifth element, which permeates all things: the very energy and essence of the world itself. Originally I was thinking it was perhaps some lifeforce, seeing as they’ve only shown exampled of them bending things with, or once had life inside (roots, ironbark, trees etc) but assuming they have a power of rocks and the like, it could be theorised that the Elves knew how to alter the very essence the world. This fifth element is what I would call “Akasha”, from Sanskrit that means aether (not the vampire queen who sat on her arse for
the better part of five thousand years); the basis of all things.

Examples that, in my opinion, support this:

1.       Shaping ironbark: it seems this is perhaps the meanest of their skills in the old days but greatest today, the Dalish craftsmen seem to possess a unique way to shape it rather than carving it or fiddling with knives (Elf mage apprentice Eadric in the Mage origin mentions Elves being more magically talented: perhaps some latent magical talent resides in all the master craftsmen?)

2.       Keeper magic: the power over natural things. I’ve never heard of any human or Circle mages performing this, and it certainly doesn’t seem likely that the Tevinter would have imparted magical secrets to their slaves, so it
comes perhaps from some racial skill.

3.       The Curse of Zatharian: arguably blood magic, though what the Lady of the Forest said intrigued me most of all: "This is an old forest, mortal, and I am its spirit, its heart. I was not summoned from across the Fade, but pulled from the rocks, the trees and the very soil. I was then bound into the body of the wolf who became Witherfang: not possessing a host like a sylvan or one of the undead, but bound into a single being. But such a process could not have been accomplished without Zathrian's blood...a great deal of his blood. The curse and his life...are intertwined.” No magic I know of in Thedas can do this: hell, I doubt even the thickest volumes in the Circle Towers know anything of the natural spirits of the world, other than those of the Fade. However, I do believe that Zatharian, unknowingly, used this Old magic to pull the spirit and give her a body, but used Blood magic to enforce the spell and seal the deal, and in the process tying his own life to the curse.  

 

Now we arrive at Blood magic: the Forbidden School and founding pillar of the Tevinter Imperium. Historians in Thedas argue that blood magic was either taught by the Old God of Silence, Dumat, or by the Elves of Arlathan and it is the latter which seems more likely to me. My guess is that the Elves of Arlathan saw these humans wielding Fade magic and decided to teach them this other magic, and perhaps this exchange of knowledge is what prompted the construction of the Elven Ruins we see in the Dalish origin story and in the Brecilian Forest: places that combine human and Elven architecture. But the Humans could not fully master it: perhaps they were physically incapable. However, they did master Blood magic which uses blood, the very essence of life (the fleshy type anyway), a lesser and perhaps more primitive form of the Old magic. Still Blood magic was potent and downright devastating, both in its output and the risks for the practitioner, and the Tevinter used it against the Elves who were probably the only ones who could stand up against it, and sunk Arlathan, enslaved her people and went into the hall of their heritage with a mallet and started thumping away. 
 

As conclusion, perhaps a better way to describe this Old magic would be Advanced Blood magic: while the humans and the rest have only mastered it to the point of living, fleshy things, the Elves went further and managed to influence this something on a much deeper level (you know, this part sounds better than all the crap above): touching the base energy in material things.
 
A penny for your thoughts.

Modifié par Kaldelar, 03 novembre 2011 - 05:02 .


#2
Bayz

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I've always thought that Tevinter actually did advanced Blood Magic to a point not even the Arlathans could understand. After all, Arlathan was destroyed and the elves enslaved by Tevinter, no?

#3
Klidi

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Hm. I remember I read somewhere that when the humans first arrived to Thedas, elves taught them magic and how to use lyrium - i.e. what you call 'Fade Magic'.

#4
gandanlin

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Magic can be nothing more than a talent or skill (a science, even) that the user understands while others do not.

Elvish knowledge of nature and the ways of animals may seem like magic to a city-dweller, but it is not true magic. Elves may be very skilled at bending ironbark, but I doubt among themselves they would call that skill magic. To them it would be something they learned through instruction and practice. As with their relationship with the halla, their skills and talents reflect their oneness with nature.

But what you say about the Curse of Zathrian rings true. The magic involved there seems to be a corruption of natural elvish racial abilities by vengeance-fuelled Blood magic.

Modifié par gandanlin, 03 novembre 2011 - 09:36 .


#5
gandanlin

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How does your hypothesis explain the differences between the City Elves and the Dalish Elves?

#6
Kaldelar

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Bayz wrote...
I've always thought that Tevinter actually
did advanced Blood Magic to a point not even the Arlathans could
understand. After all, Arlathan was destroyed and the elves enslaved by
Tevinter, no?


Never heard of that, though I suppose it's possible. That could also mean that the Tevinters used Blood magic on a different scale: perhaps they overcame Arlathans with sheer numbers (slaves being controlled by Blood magic en masse)?

Klidi wrote...
Hm. I remember I read somewhere that when
the humans first arrived to Thedas, elves taught them magic and how to
use lyrium - i.e. what you call 'Fade Magic'.


I don't remember that :/ Got the codex entry?

gandanlin wrote...

Magic can be nothing more than a talent or skill (a science, even) that the user understands while others do not.

Elvish
knowledge of nature and the ways of animals may seem like magic to a
city-dweller, but it is not true magic. Elves may be very skilled at
bending ironbark, but I doubt among themselves they would call that
skill magic. To them it would be something they learned through
instruction and practice. As with their relationship with the halla,
their skills and talents reflect their oneness with nature.

But
what you say about the Curse of Zathrian rings true. The magic involved
there seems to be a corruption of natural elvish racial abilities by
vengeance-fuelled Blood magic.


Zathrian. Just noticed I kept mispelling his name -_- But yes! You make an excellent point there! I believe Merrill says that all Elves once had the gift of magic, and from that (in part) I theorised that those who excell at crafting might have some latent streak of magic (not enough to become a Keeper though). But yes, your point is good indeed... hm.
For your other post, the City Elves and Dalish? City Elves are basically funny-looking humans, their heritage all but forgotten and their magic is whatever the Circle teaches them.

#7
Klidi

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Here: DA wiki, Tevinter imperium, History

When humans first came to mainland Thedas, they coexisted peaceably with the native elves. Several human tribes formed, including the Tevinters centered on the port-city of Minrathous, ruled by a dynasty of kings. From the elves, they learned how to use lyrium ], developing magical talent that soon dominated the nation's infrastructure. Circles of Magi formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages, presumably to train and study their talents. They formed a council of their most talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in Minrathous and decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom. In -1195 Ancient, the magister Darinius took power as its first Archon and founded the Imperium, establishing the magisters as its aristocracy. Gradually, elves retreated from contact with the humans, allowing the nascent Imperium to flourish territorially. The Imperium conquered Elvehnan, the elven homeland, and enslaved its people, who claim the magisters sunk their capital of Arlathan into the earth with their magic.

Modifié par Klidi, 04 novembre 2011 - 12:46 .


#8
Corker

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It seems fairly well-established that in the Dragon Age universe, there are separate but related physical and spirit realms.  (I'd say "spiritual" but I don't mean in a religious sense.)  There's Thedas, and there's the Fade - two different but related realms.  Let me throw out some lore and see what sticks.

The Fade is a realm primarily of spirit, where intention and will are the primary forces.  Its natural inhabitants are creatures of spirit, who have difficulty "crossing over" intentionally to Thedas.

Thedas is a realm of matter, where pushes and pulls are the primary forces.  Its natural inhabitants are creatures of matter, who have difficulty "crossing over" intentionally to the Fade.  However, these matter-made creatures do seem to have a spirit component.  The Lady of the Forest says she's a spirit of the land, so this may not be restricted to the sapient beings.  (Of course, if she *is* a Fade spirit, she might *believe* that she's a forest spirit.  But let's pretend we can believe her.)

Darkspawn are the glaring, unnatural exception.  They have no spirit component to them, as evidenced by the Archdemon's ability to transmigrate its spirit component into them at will, without annihilation.

One further assumes Flemeth is able to perform *her* transmigration only through extraordinary effort, which is why there aren't dozens and dozens of immortal witches out there.  Usually, sticking a spirit into a body already inhabited by a spirit extinguishes both spirits.

On the other hand, golems are created by transferring the spirit component of a matter-being into a steel or stone shell.  (When dwarves attempt to use a Fade spirit in one of the DAO epilogues, the thing goes berserk.)  Although the dwarves refer to the Stone as if it had a spirit, apparently a single carved golem does not have one, since it does not mutually annihilate the inserted dwarven spirit. 

Also, spirits are able to possess trees without annihilation.  Dead bodies do not appear to have a spirit component anymore; or, if there is one associated with the materials that make up the body, it is much, much weaker than the one associated with life or the mind.

According to the Scrolls of Banastor, in-game, blood control specifically works by taking over the mind/body link, controlling the blood/body to control the mind.  It's not clear to me if the mind and the spirit are necessarily the same thing.  (In Western occult theory, there's often a distinction between the thinky mind/ego bits and ineffable spirit/soul/connected to the Great Monad bits.  So it could go either way.)

Obviously, we have the sapient races who dream and use magic having a natural connection to the Fade.  The Mage Origin makes it fairly clear that even mages can't control the Fade as well as its natives, and they can't go there consciously without assistance in the form of lyrium or blood. 

*** DA2 spoilers ***
I would argue that the Primeval Thaig in DA2, and some of the dialogue there, implies that dwarves also one worked magic and dreamed.  I suspect an ancient cataclysm of some kind caused, or motivated, the entire race to break that connection.  At any rate, they have a spirit component and can walk the Fade with it, if they are dragged there by an outside force.

Aaaand then there's Anders.  One might argue that your average abomination works because the Fade spirit isn't *really* in the host, it's merely puppeting the host.  Since the two spirits do not inhabit the same body, they do not annihilate.  But Justice and Anders somehow share his body, and that really shouldn't be possible, according to everything else we're told.  I suppose the workaround is that their spirits fused?  Is that what Flemeth does with her daughters?  Why wouldn't an Archdemon's ancient and powerful soul prefer to fuse with a Grey Warden rather than annihilate?  I'm not sure if there's an answer or if this is an oversight.
***********************

So while there might be a good case to be made for a "universal spirit" in the Dragon Age universe, I think it *is* tightly tied to the Fade.  The spirits of non-sapient things like rocks and trees might be "quieter" and able to be pushed aside, pushed out, or simply destroyed in a way that the spirits of sapient beings cannot be.  I don't know if elven Keeper magic necessarily *mandates* that elves are manipulating these "quiet spirits" to work their magic, but it seems like a plausible hypothesis.

#9
gandanlin

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Corker wrote...

The Fade is a realm primarily of spirit, where intention and will are the primary forces.  Its natural inhabitants are creatures of spirit, who have difficulty "crossing over" intentionally to Thedas.



Which goes, to my way of thinking,  to the question of consent. 

Uldred tortures the mages he holds captive so that they will give consent to be possessed.  Clearly, it is consent gained by coercion, but consent (however gained) appears to be necessary before possession can occur.
The same happens with Connor.  Connor makes a deal with the demon and that allows the demon to possess him.  The deal confers consent, here given willingly, though by a child unaware of the real consequences of becoming possessed.

#10
Kaldelar

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Klidi wrote...

Here: DA wiki, Tevinter imperium, History

When
humans first came to mainland Thedas, they coexisted peaceably with the
native elves. Several human tribes formed, including the Tevinters
centered on the port-city of Minrathous, ruled by a dynasty of kings.
From the elves, they learned how to use lyrium ], developing magical
talent that soon dominated the nation's infrastructure. Circles of Magi
formed in Tevinter cities as closed societies of mages, presumably to
train and study their talents. They formed a council of their most
talented mages, the Court of Magisters, which convened in Minrathous and
decided the mandate of magic in the kingdom. In -1195 Ancient, the
magister Darinius took power as its first Archon and founded the
Imperium, establishing the magisters as its aristocracy. Gradually,
elves retreated from contact with the humans, allowing the nascent
Imperium to flourish territorially. The Imperium conquered Elvehnan, the
elven homeland, and enslaved its people, who claim the magisters sunk
their capital of Arlathan into the earth with their magic.


Thanks,
though all that shows is that the Elves made some poor judgement calls -
if I made it sound like Old and Fade had different sources, I
apologise.



Corker wrote...

It seems fairly well-established that in the Dragon Age universe, there are separate but related physical and spirit realms.  (I'd say "spiritual" but I don't mean in a religious sense.)  There's Thedas, and there's the Fade - two different but related realms.  Let me throw out some lore and see what sticks.

The Fade is a realm primarily of spirit, where intention and will are the primary forces.  Its natural inhabitants are creatures of spirit, who have difficulty "crossing over" intentionally to Thedas.

Thedas is a realm of matter, where pushes and pulls are the primary forces.  Its natural inhabitants are creatures of matter, who have difficulty "crossing over" intentionally to the Fade.  However, these matter-made creatures do seem to have a spirit component.  The Lady of the Forest says she's a spirit of the land, so this may not be restricted to the sapient beings.  (Of course, if she *is* a Fade spirit, she might *believe* that she's a forest spirit.  But let's pretend we can believe her.)

Darkspawn are the glaring, unnatural exception.  They have no spirit component to them, as evidenced by the Archdemon's ability to transmigrate its spirit component into them at will, without annihilation.

One further assumes Flemeth is able to perform *her* transmigration only through extraordinary effort, which is why there aren't dozens and dozens of immortal witches out there.  Usually, sticking a spirit into a body already inhabited by a spirit extinguishes both spirits.

On the other hand, golems are created by transferring the spirit component of a matter-being into a steel or stone shell.  (When dwarves attempt to use a Fade spirit in one of the DAO epilogues, the thing goes berserk.)  Although the dwarves refer to the Stone as if it had a spirit, apparently a single carved golem does not have one, since it does not mutually annihilate the inserted dwarven spirit. 

Also, spirits are able to possess trees without annihilation.  Dead bodies do not appear to have a spirit component anymore; or, if there is one associated with the materials that make up the body, it is much, much weaker than the one associated with life or the mind.

According to the Scrolls of Banastor, in-game, blood control specifically works by taking over the mind/body link, controlling the blood/body to control the mind.  It's not clear to me if the mind and the spirit are necessarily the same thing.  (In Western occult theory, there's often a distinction between the thinky mind/ego bits and ineffable spirit/soul/connected to the Great Monad bits.  So it could go either way.)

Obviously, we have the sapient races who dream and use magic having a natural connection to the Fade.  The Mage Origin makes it fairly clear that even mages can't control the Fade as well as its natives, and they can't go there consciously without assistance in the form of lyrium or blood. 

*** DA2 spoilers ***
I would argue that the Primeval Thaig in DA2, and some of the dialogue there, implies that dwarves also one worked magic and dreamed.  I suspect an ancient cataclysm of some kind caused, or motivated, the entire race to break that connection.  At any rate, they have a spirit component and can walk the Fade with it, if they are dragged there by an outside force.

Aaaand then there's Anders.  One might argue that your average abomination works because the Fade spirit isn't *really* in the host, it's merely puppeting the host.  Since the two spirits do not inhabit the same body, they do not annihilate.  But Justice and Anders somehow share his body, and that really shouldn't be possible, according to everything else we're told.  I suppose the workaround is that their spirits fused?  Is that what Flemeth does with her daughters?  Why wouldn't an Archdemon's ancient and powerful soul prefer to fuse with a Grey Warden rather than annihilate?  I'm not sure if there's an answer or if this is an oversight.
***********************

So while there might be a good case to be made for a "universal spirit" in the Dragon Age universe, I think it *is* tightly tied to the Fade.  The spirits of non-sapient things like rocks and trees might be "quieter" and able to be pushed aside, pushed out, or simply destroyed in a way that the spirits of sapient beings cannot be.  I don't know if elven Keeper magic necessarily *mandates* that elves are manipulating these "quiet spirits" to work their magic, but it seems like a plausible hypothesis.


I think you're misunderstanding something. I didn't say that there was some universal spirit at work here: I said that the Elves bent this basic element (though if this element is some strand of the Fade, I don't know - if it is, it's very interesting) that resides in all things, this lifeforce or whatever, this Component of Creation, though that does not necessitate a spirit being there. Unless we go with the Pocahontas approach of course, and then it might be the Keeper asking the spirit to bend?
Since Dwarves can't work magic (but as some dwarf in DA2 said), they can assemble components. Perhaps the creation of golems is more akin to science than magic?

Modifié par Kaldelar, 07 novembre 2011 - 11:49 .


#11
Kaldelar

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Update: This is from the DA wiki and I can't see the source, but it's extremely interesting:

It was crafted by the elves of Arlathan to be used as portals for telecommunication and perhaps even teleportation between their cities, using a type of magic different from that of the modern Circle of Magi or even the Tevinter Imperium. After the fall of Arlathan, the Tevinter magisters attempted to unlock the secrets of the Eluvians, but all they could use them for was long-distance communication.


Now we know that Eluvians can transfer physical objects (Morrigan and the Warden, the Blight Disease...) though there is a book in the Circle of Magi that clearly states that no magic canmake you travel over either long or short distances ("the immutable nature of the physical world prevents this" - Codex Entry: The Cardinal Rules of Magic) - clearly, the Circle is wrong there.

Really has nothing to do with the discussion, just found it interesting that there are clues to the magical skill of the Elves left here and there.

#12
Sir Pounce-a-lot

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Interesting. If the ancient elves really could live forever (or a very long time), then they probably did use blood magic. Zathrian was a blood mage, and even used 'blood wound' on one of my playthroughs. The Lady of the Forest told Zathrian that his people mistakenly thought that he had rediscovered the immortality of his ancestors, but maybe that's all their "immortality" ever really was. Zathrian's apprentice (that hot mage gal - can't remember her name) tells you that the elves of Arlathan didn't put up much resistance against Tevinter, and maybe that's because most of them were slaves to blood mages to begin with, and they didn't see much of a difference between having elven masters and human masters.

I liked the Legend of Zelda's portrayal of elves better, or even Santa's Christmas elves. ;). Then again, Dragon Age's elves are way better than those grotesque elves in the Harry Potter films. My ideal elves are beautiful, semi-divine beings from another universe that have a union of both nature and other-worldly technology.