179 réponses à ce sujet

[Zanallen]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The only thing to comprehend about the "chosen one" argument is that it is a pathetic pile of useless crap. 

As noted, your irrational beliefs about and hatred of mages, whatever's going on there with you, doesn't justify the slaughter of people who are only "guilty" of an accident of birth.  Of course, you've never contemplated the issue beyond "I just wanna kill em", have you? 

Except for all the evidence pointing toward its use and it being a very common fantasy trope, I guess it is a "pathetic pile of useless crap". Obviously you are correct and anything that doesn't flow with your interpretation is completely wrong. What a load.

There is nothing irrational about my beliefs and dislike of mages. They are an established threat to the world of Thedas and have yet to prove they can be trusted with the power they wield. There is not one instance other than under Chntry or Qunari rule where mages do not have some measure of control over the local populace. If they don't wish to be monitored and controled, then they can be wiped out. That's the nature of the beast. Without some ridiculous contrivance like magic awakening in everyone, there won't be a peace established between mages and non-mages.

Of course, we are discussing a fictional group of people in a fictional world. My dislike of mages has no bearing on my views on real life people or groups. Same with my dislike of Ewoks, Gungans, C3P0 and droids that look like him, the entire Zexen council, poison type pokemon, the Flash's entire villain line-up or kyptonite in its plethora of forms and functions.

And yes, I have considered the mage vs templar conflict from numerous angles. I have read through the countless threads on the matter to the point where each new one that pops up makes me a little ill. (Mostly because each new one is just a rehash of the same damn arguments over and over again.)

[DKJaigen]

Bayz wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Go play FATAL thats a game far more suited for you.

Ouch...I mean yeah the guy is posting like an **** but is it necessary to get that radical, mate?

Name me an RPG where you do what zandallan wishes to do and i willl direct him their.

[The Baconer]

Zanallen wrote...

There is nothing irrational about my beliefs and dislike of mages. They are an established threat to the world of Thedas

Really? Remember the part where technology and arcitecture flourished during the times of the Imperium? Or how now scientific advancement has stagnated under the rule of the Chantry and mundane despots?

and have yet to prove they can be trusted with the power they wield.

They don't have to prove anything. Especially not to the clearly inferior mundanes.

If they don't wish to be monitored and controled, then they can be wiped out. That's the nature of the beast. Without some ridiculous contrivance like magic awakening in everyone, there won't be a peace established between mages and non-mages.

On the contrary, if practices of euthanesia would be applied to non-mage younglings, as opposed to being practiced on mage children like it has been in contemporary Thedas, in conjunction with introducing magic into genetic lines where magic was previously not a trait, then it would be possible to arrive at a new, genetically pure Thedas. One no longer stained by mundane blood.

Of course, I am disregarding the dwarves in this theory, as have already found their niche, going by history.

[Zanallen]

The Baconer wrote...

Really? Remember the part where technology and arcitecture flourished during the times of the Imperium? Or how now scientific advancement has stagnated under the rule of the Chantry and mundane despots?

The same time where the magisters would routinely murdering people to use their blood to fuel magical rites? Yeah, that was good times for the world.

They don't have to prove anything. Especially not to the clearly inferior mundanes.

Oh, gotta love the master race argument.

On the contrary, if practices of euthanesia would be applied to non-mage younglings, as opposed to being practiced on mage children like it has been in contemporary Thedas, in conjunction with introducing magic into genetic lines where magic was previously not a trait, then it would be possible to arrive at a new, genetically pure Thedas. One no longer stained by mundane blood.

Except mages are the vast, vast minority. There is a good chance that if you killed all non-mage children, you would be creating a self-imposed genetic bottleneck that would spell doom for the entirety of sentient life on Thedas (Minus the dwarves, of course). I would be fine with that though. It being a fictional place with fictional people and all.

Of course, I am disregarding the dwarves in this theory, as have already found their niche, going by history.

You can't disregard the dwarves. They provide you with your precious lyrium. What happens when you run out of non-mages to sacrifice for blood magic? Are you going to start killing the weaker mages? I don't think they'll stand for that.

[DKJaigen]

Zanallan we have something called sarcasm. and you FAIL to comprehend that badly

[The Baconer]

The same time where the magisters would routinely murdering people to use their blood to fuel magical rites? Yeah, that was good times for the world.

Meh. We slaughter millions of livestock every year in real life. Same thing, only the purpose is different.

Oh, gotta love the master race argument.

Especially in a fantasy universe where it ends up being true!

Except mages are the vast, vast minority. There is a good chance that if you killed all non-mage children, you would be creating a self-imposed genetic bottleneck that would spell doom for the entirety of sentient life on Thedas (Minus the dwarves, of course).

That's where the "introducing magic into genetic lines where it previously wasn't a trait" comes in.

You can't disregard the dwarves.

I'm disregarding the dwarves because they have already been shown to
have a mutually beneficial relationship with mages in the past.

What happens when you run out of non-mages to sacrifice for blood magic?

Animals. Aside from mundanes I mean.

Modifié par The Baconer, 05 novembre 2011 - 06:01 .

[Zanallen]

DKJaigen wrote...

Zanallan we have something called sarcasm. and you FAIL to comprehend that badly

It's called playing along, DK. Not that Bacon's exact argument hasn't been used by Pro-Mage people before.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

Zanallan we have something called sarcasm. and you FAIL to comprehend that badly

It's called playing along, DK. Not that Bacon's exact argument hasn't been used by Pro-Mage people before.

Technically, the pro-templar argument has used that argument before by addressing that the ruler of Ferelden couldn't emancipate the mages in the Circle of Ferelden because they were 'property of the Chantry.'

[Zanallen]

The Baconer wrote...


Meh. We slaughter millions of livestock every year in real life. Same thing, only the purpose is different.


Especially in a fantasy universe where it ends up being true!

Well, I can't argue with that. Just make sure you keep those mundanes properly cowed. You wouldn't want a second Andraste, after all.

That's where the "introducing magic into genetic lines where it previously wasn't a trait" comes in.

I still say you would be killing off far too many people. Magic is supposed to be a very rare curse. Maybe 1/1000. You might consider setting up breeding facilities though with dedicated breeders.

I'm disregarding the dwarves because they have already been shown to
have a mutually beneficial relationship with mages in the past.

True. Though at that point, it would seem they have power over you. They have a resource that you cannot acquire naturally. Sure, you could wipe them out, but then you have no one to mine the lyrium for you. You'll have to monitor that situation closely to make sure they don't get uppity.

Animals. Aside from mundanes I mean.

Does animal blood work well for blood magic? I don't recall any specific mention of it.

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, the pro-templar argument has used that argument before by addressing that the ruler of Ferelden couldn't emancipate the mages in the Circle of Ferelden because they were 'property of the Chantry.'

I was referring to the mages as ****** superior argument. The property argument implies the mages are slaves or chattel, but doesn't imply an inherent superiority.

[LobselVith8]

Zanallen wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, the pro-templar argument has used that argument before by addressing that the ruler of Ferelden couldn't emancipate the mages in the Circle of Ferelden because they were 'property of the Chantry.'

I was referring to the mages as ****** superior argument. The property argument implies the mages are slaves or chattel, but doesn't imply an inherent superiority.

I think it does imply superiority by the idea that someone would view mages as 'property,' which dehumanizes them.

[The Baconer]

Well, I can't argue with that. Just make sure you keep those mundanes properly cowed. You wouldn't want a second Andraste, after all.

Perhaps a system of fanatical indroctrination would work. Make them believe they're pretty well off even though they're not. It worked pretty well for the Qunari.

I still say you would be killing off far too many people. Magic is supposed to be a very rare curse. Maybe 1/1000. You might consider setting up breeding facilities though with dedicated breeders.

Now you're thinking like an Übermensch™!

True. Though at that point, it would seem they have power over you. They have a resource that you cannot acquire naturally. Sure, you could wipe them out, but then you have no one to mine the lyrium for you. You'll have to monitor that situation closely to make sure they don't get uppity.

Indeed.

Does animal blood work well for blood magic? I don't recall any specific mention of it.

I haven't found a mention of it not working. So I'll just assume it can work until Bioware says otherwise. Pigs and Humans share quite a few anatomical similarities, after all.

Modifié par The Baconer, 05 novembre 2011 - 06:29 .

[Zanallen]

LobselVith8 wrote...

I think it does imply superiority by the idea that someone would view mages as 'property,' which dehumanizes them.

Oh it dehumanizes them surely, but I don't think that necessarily implies superiority. Much like demons are inhuman, but there are many ways in which demons are superior to humans. Same with dragons and several species of beast.

[Zanallen]

The Baconer wrote...

Perhaps a system of fanatical indroctrination would work. Make them believe they're pretty well off even though they're not. It worked pretty well for the Qunari.

True. The mages could probably learn a lot from the Qunari. Like, if those collars they use on Saarebas actually do control them (Wheel of Time, anyone?), then perhaps they can be made to work on mundanes as well?

Now you're thinking like an Übermensch™!

I have always enjoyed Nietzsche.

I haven't found a mentino of it not working. So I'll just assume it can work until Bioware says otherwise. Pigs and Humans share quite a few anatomical similarities, after all.

Logical way of thinking about it. We'll have to await Bioware's ruling on the subject, but I guess we can assume it works until we learn otherwise.

[Nerevar-as]

The Baconer wrote...

I haven't found a mention of it not working. So I'll just assume it can work until Bioware says otherwise. Pigs and Humans share quite a few anatomical similarities, after all.

I think it either doesn´t or is far less effective. Breeding animals for BM is faster and less dangerous than slaves.

[tmp7704]

DKJaigen wrote...

TJPags wrote...

There should absolutely be an option to side with the Templars, even if it means setting up a world in which every mage is killed.

We call that option chaotic stupid and is totally a realism killer for me. In KOTOR i despised how the ls/ds was handeld . We deal in shades of grey and i dont need snuff in my games.

I'd consider it more of a "lawful evil", myself -- it's a way to establish firm order and remove the whole conundrum, if at the expense of these unlucky enough not to fit the grand picture.

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

They don't have to prove anything. Especially not to the clearly inferior mundanes.

As things are currently in Thedas, it's the mages who have demonstrated to be inferior, so far -- their empire was reduced to a country on brink of collapse by the mundanes, and many of them have been put into submission. And that's despite having theoretical power advantage. How incompetent does that make them?

That's a worse track record than the elves can boast, given the elves lack the advantages the mages enjoy.

Modifié par tmp7704, 05 novembre 2011 - 06:51 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, the pro-templar argument has used that argument before by addressing that the ruler of Ferelden couldn't emancipate the mages in the Circle of Ferelden because they were 'property of the Chantry.'

Technically the argument was the ruler of Ferelden can't dictate how the Circle operates, because the circles are under jurisdiction of the Chantry rather than individual countries. Similar to an embassy.

[AlexXIV]

The Baconer wrote...

I haven't found a mention of it not working. So I'll just assume it can work until Bioware says otherwise. Pigs and Humans share quite a few anatomical similarities, after all.

Pigs are holy animals to the Tevinters. That's why they take humans ...

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Technically, the pro-templar argument has used that argument before by addressing that the ruler of Ferelden couldn't emancipate the mages in the Circle of Ferelden because they were 'property of the Chantry.'

Technically the argument was the ruler of Ferelden can't dictate how the Circle operates, because the circles are under jurisdiction of the Chantry rather than individual countries. Similar to an embassy.

Actually, I was talking about an argument that had been made by a pro-templar poster (that was supported by other pro-templar posters) in favor of the Chantry controlled Circles. My point was that there are people who will take either side to an extreme.

Modifié par LobselVith8, 05 novembre 2011 - 07:12 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, I was talking about an argument that had been made by a pro-templar poster (that was supported by other pro-templar posters) in favor of the Chantry controlled Circles. My point was that there are people who will take either side to an extreme.

I may be reading it wrong, but do you mean that some pro-templar people have used this as argument to support the idea the mages in the Circles are "property of the Chantry"? If that's the case then yes, you certainly have the point about the extremes thing.

[LobselVith8]

tmp7704 wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Actually, I was talking about an argument that had been made by a pro-templar poster (that was supported by other pro-templar posters) in favor of the Chantry controlled Circles. My point was that there are people who will take either side to an extreme.

I may be reading it wrong, but do you mean that some pro-templar people have used this as argument to support the idea the mages in the Circles are "property of the Chantry"? If that's the case then yes, you certainly have the point about the extremes thing.

Yes. It was the crux of an argument made in explaining why an Exalted March might be launched against Ferelden, since it would be "theft of Chantry property" and "borderline heretical."

[The Baconer]

tmp7704 wrote...
As things are currently in Thedas, it's the mages who have demonstrated to be inferior, so far -- their empire was reduced to a country on brink of collapse by the mundanes,

By the mundanes? Hardly. You're forgetting that Tevinter had already weathered a Blight, and was also enduring a famine. And even after all that the rebellion still failed, and Andraste burned at the stake. Tevinter yielded to the Chantry on its own terms.

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

By the mundanes? Hardly. You're forgetting that Tevinter had already weathered a Blight, and was also enduring a famine.

So did the mundanes. Bad workers always blame their tools.

And even after all that the rebellion still failed, and Andraste burned at the stake. Tevinter yielded to the Chantry on its own terms.

Yielded on its own terms is an oxymoron. You either lose and yield, or you win and don't.

You really believe the "fine, you get half of our country and we change our political system by 90 degrees at least" was something Tevinter wanted?

[AlexXIV]

tmp7704 wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

By the mundanes? Hardly. You're forgetting that Tevinter had already weathered a Blight, and was also enduring a famine.

So did the mundanes. Bad workers always blame their tools.

And even after all that the rebellion still failed, and Andraste burned at the stake. Tevinter yielded to the Chantry on its own terms.

Yielded on its own terms is an oxymoron. You either lose and yield, or you win and don't.

You really believe the "fine, you get half of our country and we change our political system by 90 degrees at least" was something Tevinter wanted?

Well to be fair they were facing rebellion/civil war. The Andrastean cult spoke to many of the Tevinter citizens since they also had enough of the mages lording over them. But still, the mages yielded and submitted. They would have lost more if they kept fighting. There is nothing superior about the Tevinter Empire, but still about mages as such. I mean they are dangerous for a reason. So the average mage is superior to the average non mage in power. By magic. But still the best mage can be killed by a non mage. For example by a non mage Hero of Ferelden or non mage Hawke. Or Fenris, Leliana, Zevran, Alistair, etc. etc. There are enough non mages who could end the most powerful mage.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 novembre 2011 - 07:40 .