179 réponses à ce sujet

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

There is nothing superior about the Tevinter Empire, but still about mages as such. I mean they are dangerous for a reason. So the average mage is superior to the average non mage in power. By magic.

I'm simply arguing that having higher potential doesn't make the owner superior by itself. It's what they actually achieve that determines it.

And if mages achieve less than mundanes despite having theoretically higher potential, then it only shows they're just one of these evolutionary branches that ultimately ended in a failure. Like dinosaurs. No matter how impressive a t-rex skeleton may look nowadays.

[The Baconer]

So did the mundanes. Bad workers always blame their tools.

The mundanes didn't have an empire to manage.

Yielded on its own terms is an oxymoron. You either lose and yield, or you win and don't.

No, they surrendered on terms they found grudgingly agreeable, with northern Tevinter remaining. If they were to truly lose the war, there wouldn't be a Tevinter, and Minrathous would have been taken.

Modifié par The Baconer, 05 novembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[dragonflight288]

The mundanes didn't have an empire to manage.

Orlais at its height was an empire, and still is one if the title Empress and Emperor are still used.

[The Baconer]

dragonflight288 wrote...
Orlais at its height was an empire, and still is one if the title Empress and Emperor are still used.

Orlais was founded about 100 years after the end of the first Blight, and after southern Tevinter had already fragmented.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Calling the mages a "master race" isn't any less rediculous than arguing for all mages to be murdered as children to "protect the decent people of the world". It's just two moronic sides arguing over scraps of the legacy of the guy with the funny little mustache... pathetic either way.

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...
The mundanes didn't have an empire to manage.

Like i said, bad workers always blame their tools. If it's not the blight or bad crops, then it's the stress of administrative work.

But in the end the fact remains the "superior mages" simply aren't good enough to establish a country bigger than their mundane neighbours, despite having the advantage of alleged superiority.

(not to mention the reverse of this coin is, this means the "superior beings" lost to a rag-tag bunch of mundanes who weren't even organized into a country. Talk about egg on the face)

No, they surrendered on terms they found grudgingly agreeable, with northern Tevinter remaining. If they were to truly lose the war, there wouldn't be a Tevinter, and Minrathous would have been taken.

If they didn't lose, they wouldn't give away half of their empire just to buy themselves a truce. And they did it because they were afraid they'd otherwise lose it all.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 novembre 2011 - 02:44 .

[dragonflight288]

Tevinter didn't get conquered, but they did surrender on their terms. And since Tevinter had, for centuries, considered magic a great gift and that the most powerful noble houses were mages-

Well, they would obviously want that power back, and they won back those rights by inches. So now it's just the same as it was.

There's a big difference between being defeated and surrendering on your own terms.

[tmp7704]

dragonflight288 wrote...

There's a big difference between being defeated and surrendering on your own terms.

http://social.biowar...29650/5#8641917

[Melca36]

Zanallen wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The only thing to comprehend about the "chosen one" argument is that it is a pathetic pile of useless crap. 

As noted, your irrational beliefs about and hatred of mages, whatever's going on there with you, doesn't justify the slaughter of people who are only "guilty" of an accident of birth.  Of course, you've never contemplated the issue beyond "I just wanna kill em", have you? 

Except for all the evidence pointing toward its use and it being a very common fantasy trope, I guess it is a "pathetic pile of useless crap". Obviously you are correct and anything that doesn't flow with your interpretation is completely wrong. What a load.

There is nothing irrational about my beliefs and dislike of mages. They are an established threat to the world of Thedas and have yet to prove they can be trusted with the power they wield. There is not one instance other than under Chntry or Qunari rule where mages do not have some measure of control over the local populace. If they don't wish to be monitored and controled, then they can be wiped out. That's the nature of the beast. Without some ridiculous contrivance like magic awakening in everyone, there won't be a peace established between mages and non-mages.

Of course, we are discussing a fictional group of people in a fictional world. My dislike of mages has no bearing on my views on real life people or groups. Same with my dislike of Ewoks, Gungans, C3P0 and droids that look like him, the entire Zexen council, poison type pokemon, the Flash's entire villain line-up or kyptonite in its plethora of forms and functions.

And yes, I have considered the mage vs templar conflict from numerous angles. I have read through the countless threads on the matter to the point where each new one that pops up makes me a little ill. (Mostly because each new one is just a rehash of the same damn arguments over and over again.)

How many physicians are in Thedas and how many lives will be lost by the lack of healers.?

Your plan to kill all mages fails by that one thought alone.

Its also ignorant to assume all mages are evil. Even the developers have admitted to the mistakes of making the game this way.

[Dave of Canada]

Melca36 wrote...

How many physicians are in Thedas and how many lives will be lost by the lack of healers.?

A handful of nobles who are pretty much the only ones capable of affording the capabilities of a mage to heal them through access by the Circle.

[EmperorSahlertz]

There are surgeons and physicians in Thedas who aren't mages. The surgeons and physicians will be what enables Thedosian society to develop beyond a dependency on magic, so if all mages were eliminated, then perhaps tangible scientific discoveries could be made, instead of all of it having roots in magic, and thus being useless to the general populace.

[AlexXIV]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are surgeons and physicians in Thedas who aren't mages. The surgeons and physicians will be what enables Thedosian society to develop beyond a dependency on magic, so if all mages were eliminated, then perhaps tangible scientific discoveries could be made, instead of all of it having roots in magic, and thus being useless to the general populace.

Even in modern times magic would be superior to some scientific methods. Not all maybe. But if for example you could avoid a difficult and dangerous surgery with a healing spell, that would be something. And magic is actually available for everyone. Not everyone is a mage, but not everyone is a MD either. So even in our society you have to rely on other people and can't do everything on your own. The only problem I really see between mages and non mages is mistrust and prejudice. And maybe envy.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 06 novembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[hoorayforicecream]

AlexXIV wrote...

The only problem I really see between mages and non mages is mistrust and prejudice. And maybe envy.

There is that whole 'possessed by demons' thing, too.

[tmp7704]

AlexXIV wrote...

And magic is actually available for everyone.

The big reason for Anders' popularity between Kirkwall have-nots is, he's allegedly the only mage that lives amongst them and provides them with a service they can afford.

Modifié par tmp7704, 06 novembre 2011 - 05:31 .

[The Baconer]

Like i said, bad workers always blame their tools. If it's not the blight or bad crops, then it's the stress of administrative work.

Oh, so we've already entered the strawman phase.

But in the end the fact remains the "superior mages" simply aren't good enough to establish a country bigger than their mundane neighbours, despite having the advantage of alleged superiority.

You appear to be talking about a different franchise's lore. We should probably be on the same page here if we're gonna debate.

(not to mention the reverse of this coin is, this means the "superior beings" lost to a rag-tag bunch of mundanes who weren't even organized into a country. Talk about egg on the face)

If they didn't lose, they wouldn't give away half of their empire just to buy themselves a truce. And they did it because they were afraid they'd otherwise lose it all.

"Maferath traveled to the Imperial capital of Minrathous to speak with the Archon Hessarian. There he offered up his wife to the Imperium in return for a truce that would end hostilities once and for all. The archon,
eager to put down the voice of the prophet that stirred his own people
against him, agreed. Maferath led Andraste into an ambush where she was
captured by Imperial agents, putting an end to her Exalted March."
    -Codex entry: The History of the Chantry: Part 3

You can drop that issue now.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are surgeons and physicians in Thedas who aren't mages.

"Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection...."

"Indeed, the Chantry seems almost irrational in its fear of blood magic;
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and ignoring more immediate
or severe threats..."

Oh ok.

[Killjoy Cutter]

So Chantry fear of blood magic is so irrational that there's severe limitation on the academic study of medicine... looks like it's not magic holding back the people of Thedas after all...

[Ryzaki]

Okay that's facepalm worthy.

They stop academic work that don't even need a mage within a mile radius due to fear of bloodmagic? WTF?

[Xilizhra]

No one ever said the Chantry was smart.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Anyone paying attention would note that the Chantry is an amalgamation of many of the bad aspects of various religions over the ages. They don't even do a good job of handling the good things that religions have done, such as caring for the sick and the poor. The only things they're good at are spreading their Chant, wiping out other cultures, and fearmongering about magic.

[labargegrrrl]

to our pathetically fearful mage-genocide friends:

in the DA universe, there is one threat greater than magic. the entire point of the first game? think we'd forgotten? you wish. as you're all fond of pointing out, we created blight.

also, in the DA universe, there is only one way to end blight. grey wardens. again, the entire point of the first game. only a grey warden can face the remaining old gods and freaking END them.

i also seem to recall a couple of covo from the first game re: the Joining, the ritual we all know creates Grey Wardens.

Duncan: I have had the mages preparing. (presumably the other elements in the joining other than the freaking blood.)
Alistar: I know it involves lyrium and some other magic. (regarding putting other Wardens through the joining.)

so kill us all off if you'd like. you do so at your own demise.

[Ryzaki]

I love how some people take this game far far too seriously.

Because we all know there's no such thing as a "kill em all" option for the lulz right?

[Xilizhra]

If all you want to do is go for the lulz all the time, why are you discussing this?

[Demx]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Anyone paying attention would note that the Chantry is an amalgamation of many of the bad aspects of various religions over the ages. They don't even do a good job of handling the good things that religions have done, such as caring for the sick and the poor. The only things they're good at are spreading their Chant, wiping out other cultures, and fearmongering about magic.

It's also easier to show one's flaws than one's good traits. Not to mention a person's flaws weighs heavier than their good traits. Now replace said person with an organization, and now everyone related to the group is at fault for what someone else within the group has done. This can be said for the mages, templars, and the chantry.

[Ryzaki]

Xilizhra wrote...

If all you want to do is go for the lulz all the time, why are you discussing this?

Where in that do you see for the lulz all the time? 

There are plenty of "kill him for the lulz" choices in DA2. Hi there Javaris. 

[Xilizhra]

Ryzaki wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If all you want to do is go for the lulz all the time, why are you discussing this?

Where in that do you see for the lulz all the time? 

There are plenty of "kill him for the lulz" choices in DA2. Hi there Javaris. 

I think we may be talking about different things now.