179 réponses à ce sujet

[Chun Hei]

What we need to do is steal gun powder from the Qunari and then give everyone in Thedas cheep and easy access to firearms. Any unskilled moron who can point a gun can kill a mage, a Reverend Mother or a noble. Make DA a true Western RPG.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Not sure I'd use early blackpowder firearms against people who can conjure up fire at will...

[Ryzaki]

Chun Hei wrote...

What we need to do is steal gun powder from the Qunari and then give everyone in Thedas cheep and easy access to firearms. Any unskilled moron who can point a gun can kill a mage, a Reverend Mother or a noble. Make DA a true Western RPG.

Hellz yes. 

Shooting mages in the face? 

YES

[Bigdoser]

The Baconer wrote...

Like i said, bad workers always blame their tools. If it's not the blight or bad crops, then it's the stress of administrative work.

Oh, so we've already entered the strawman phase.

But in the end the fact remains the "superior mages" simply aren't good enough to establish a country bigger than their mundane neighbours, despite having the advantage of alleged superiority.

You appear to be talking about a different franchise's lore. We should probably be on the same page here if we're gonna debate.

(not to mention the reverse of this coin is, this means the "superior beings" lost to a rag-tag bunch of mundanes who weren't even organized into a country. Talk about egg on the face)

If they didn't lose, they wouldn't give away half of their empire just to buy themselves a truce. And they did it because they were afraid they'd otherwise lose it all.

"Maferath traveled to the Imperial capital of Minrathous to speak with the Archon Hessarian. There he offered up his wife to the Imperium in return for a truce that would end hostilities once and for all. The archon,
eager to put down the voice of the prophet that stirred his own people
against him, agreed. Maferath led Andraste into an ambush where she was
captured by Imperial agents, putting an end to her Exalted March."
    -Codex entry: The History of the Chantry: Part 3

You can drop that issue now.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are surgeons and physicians in Thedas who aren't mages.

"Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection...."

"Indeed, the Chantry seems almost irrational in its fear of blood magic;
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and ignoring more immediate
or severe threats..."

Oh ok.

lol soo its the chantry that is preventing medical science going foward. 

Modifié par Bigdoser, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:57 .

[Zanallen]

Well, technically it is the fear of what blood mages could do with knowledge of the human body that is holding back advancements in medicine. If we killed all mages, the Chantry would no longer have a reason to deny that field of study.

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

Oh, so we've already entered the strawman phase.

Did we? You didn't bother to specify how exactly having empire to manage had affected the big picture. If my interpretation was inaccurate, feel free to elaborate on what you actually meant.

You appear to be talking about a different franchise's lore. We should probably be on the same page here if we're gonna debate.

No, i'm talking about present Tevinter as it is presented in DA games. The "little more than a dilapidated old slattern, crouching in the far north of Thedas, drunkenly cursing at passersby to recall her faded beauty", as the first game puts it.

"Maferath traveled to the Imperial capital of Minrathous to speak with the Archon Hessarian. There he offered up his wife to the Imperium in return for a truce that would end hostilities once and for all. The archon,
eager to put down the voice of the prophet that stirred his own people against him, agreed."

You can drop that issue now.

Yes, it makes it quite clear -- noticed it wasn't the Tevinter archon who dictated the terms? "Surrender on own terms" indeed.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Zanallen wrote...

Well, technically it is the fear of what blood mages could do with knowledge of the human body that is holding back advancements in medicine. If we killed all mages, the Chantry would no longer have a reason to deny that field of study.

You can't kill all the mages... there will always be more mages born.  And as long as someone could secretly be a mage, their fear will drive them to forbid that research.  Plus, it's the Chantry, they'll come up with another reason to restrict medical research... prohibitions against defiling bodies, reliance of medicine supposedly showing a lack of faith in the Maker, etc. 

[The Baconer]

tmp7704 wrote...

Did we? You didn't bother to specify how exactly having empire to manage had affected the big picture. If my interpretation was inaccurate, feel free to elaborate on what you actually meant.

That factors that affect the infastructure of an empire are, surprise, relevant to managing the infastructure of an empire?

No, i'm talking about present Tevinter as it is presented in DA games. The "little more than a dilapidated old slattern, crouching in the far north of Thedas, drunkenly cursing at passersby to recall her faded beauty", as the first game puts it.

Their track record has already been established. At it's peak, the Imperium controlled almost the entirety of Thedas for 1000 years. The next powerful empire, Orlais, controlled half of that at their peak. They managed to hold it for a respectable 40 years before declining. Their next resurgence, with the conquering of Ferelden, lasts 60 years.

Yes, it makes it quite clear -- noticed it wasn't the Tevinter archon who dictated the terms? "Surrender on own terms" indeed.

Maferath called a truce in the first place to avoid pursuing a war in northern Tevinter. If the Archon had found the terms disagreeable then he could have simply continued hostilities.

[Inprea]

tmp7704 wrote...

Yes, it makes it quite clear -- noticed it wasn't the Tevinter archon who dictated the terms? "Surrender on own terms" indeed.

You seem to think that surrendering and surrendering on ones own terms are the same thing. They are most assuredly not. Let's take a real life example in Pablo Escobar. When he surrendered to authorities in I think around 1991 it was on his own terms. He was confined in La Catedral a private luxery prison that well most people would have loved to be imprisoned in I imagine. He retained his fortune and all of his power or pretty much all of his power. He surrendered to the authorities and they could say he was imprisoned but it was on his terms.

So, "Yes you can imprison me but it has to be in a luxery estate built like a fortress to insure my safety and I can only be required to spend five years within it at most."

Now a complete surrender is another story. In a complete surrender the one surrendering doesn't get to dictate any terms. So you can strip them of their wealth, land, cloths, force them to do heavy labor etc etc.

The Tavinter imperium surrendered on their terms. So while according to the Chantry mages can't wield political power in Tavinter even in the early days it was, "Yes you can have the templars watch me for weakness but I still retain my status, my slaves, my wealth, my land and don't you even think about trying that tranquility crap on me."

In truth the Tavinter mages lost land but they gained a powerful tool. Religion is very good at controlling people but the Tavinter's had lost that tool with the corruption of the old gods. They needed a new one and the chantry provided a wonderful tool. The peasants thought they were getting a benevolent force to watch over them and keep them safe and the Tavinter magisters had time to establish their control anew.

Besides, the Tavinters were recovering from a blight as well as a faminine and the loss of their old gods. If they had a few years to recover their strength the barbarians would have been put down fast. Given that the cult of Adraste let the mages set the terms of their surrender I'm not even sure if they had the power to conquer the north. 

[Herr Uhl]

Inprea wrote...

In truth the Tavinter mages lost land but they gained a powerful tool. Religion is very good at controlling people but the Tavinter's had lost that tool with the corruption of the old gods. They needed a new one and the chantry provided a wonderful tool. The peasants thought they were getting a benevolent force to watch over them and keep them safe and the Tavinter magisters had time to establish their control anew.

Odd that it took the Tevinter magisters the odd 500 years to use said tool if that was their intent. After the surrender their imperium crumbled as well (see Rivain).

And, it is Tevinter, not Tavinter.

[Inprea]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Inprea wrote...

In truth the Tavinter mages lost land but they gained a powerful tool. Religion is very good at controlling people but the Tavinter's had lost that tool with the corruption of the old gods. They needed a new one and the chantry provided a wonderful tool. The peasants thought they were getting a benevolent force to watch over them and keep them safe and the Tavinter magisters had time to establish their control anew.

Odd that it took the Tevinter magisters the odd 500 years to use said tool if that was their intent. After the surrender their imperium crumbled as well (see Rivain).

And, it is Tevinter, not Tavinter.

How did it take them 500 years for them to make use of the tool? By "surrendering" to the chantry they put down the peasant revolt and put themselves in a position to reclaim the power they had lost. Yes it took time for them to begin to rule openly again but they do rule again. The chantry's use as a political stabilizer to pacify the peasants began probably the moment they surrendered.

Just because they wielded power discretely doesn't mean they weren't wielding it. They just worked quietly to regain their influence and while Tevinter isn't as grand as it once was it's still one of the most powerful nations to be found. Powerful enough that the divine hasn't risked an exalted march on them despite their separation from the chantry and mages clearly violating chantry law.

Thank you for correcting my spelling of a fictional nation.

Modifié par Inprea, 07 novembre 2011 - 05:07 .

[tmp7704]

The Baconer wrote...

That factors that affect the infastructure of an empire are, surprise, relevant to managing the infastructure of an empire?

But what impact is "managing the infrastructure of an empire" supposed to have? I'm likely completely misreading your argument, because you appear to argue a really silly point that an operating empire is at combat disadvantage against unorganized bunch of supposed inferior primitives merely and by the very fact it is an organized empire.

Their track record has already been established. At it's peak, the Imperium controlled almost the entirety of Thedas for 1000 years.

So what is preventing the superior mages from maintaning their superior track record? I guess we have to conclude they've become less superior since the old times, seeing how now they can't even do any better than the mundanes around them?

Or maybe their great, powerful empire lasted for so long only because no one tried to actually get together and punch the mages in their noses to discover they bleed like the mundanes? Because see what happened to the great empire as soon as someone did. Or how even the elf slaves could kick their asses out of Kirkwall once they got pissed off enough. And how oddly enough the superior mages failed to pick themselves up after that...

Maferath called a truce in the first place to avoid pursuing a war in northern Tevinter.

Yes, and it was made on his terms. That's called "winning".

If the Archon had found the terms disagreeable then he could have simply continued hostilities.

I'm sure the Archon was delighted to lose half of his empire. A truly bargain deal that was, after all.

You know who else could've simply continued hostilities if they found the terms disagreable? Every single country that surrendered, ever.

[IanPolaris]

tmp7704 wrote...

Yes, and it was made on his terms. That's called "winning".

Actually it wasn't.  Malferate (sp?) despaired at the idea of winning in fact and was worried that the war had taken it's course and that Tevinter was starting to recover.  It was time to cut a deal.

If the Archon had found the terms disagreeable then he could have simply continued hostilities.

I'm sure the Archon was delighted to lose half of his empire. A truly bargain deal that was, after all.

You know who else could've simply continued hostilities if they found the terms disagreable? Every single country that surrendered, ever.

The Archon by this point was facing internal revolt and had the uneviable task of reconquering land already lost.  It was very much a negotiated peace and very much on Tevinter's terms.

-Polaris

[EmperorSahlertz]

Losing 50% of what you own is never "on your terms", unless you would have lost much more had you not negotiated...

[CrimsonZephyr]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Losing 50% of what you own is never "on your terms", unless you would have lost much more had you not negotiated...

It depends on what the objectives of the belligerents are. I mean, Tevinter at that point, after a Blight, a famine, and a huge rebellion, was probably gunning for survival. In which case, the agreement satisfied their ultimate aims. If it was on the Andrastians' terms, there would not have been a Tevinter afterward.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Baconer wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

There are surgeons and physicians in Thedas who aren't mages.

"Fear of blood magic has stigmatized academic dissection...."

"Indeed, the Chantry seems almost irrational in its fear of blood magic;
going so far as to suppress anatomical study and ignoring more immediate
or severe threats..."

Oh ok.

"In my Travels as chronicler and... "

Yes, indeed.

The Chantry is probably only supressing all mages' academic research of corpses, which is understandable, given the nature of magic. The only danger a non-mage shows, if researching corpses, is if he does so in a place with a thin veil.

And I must stress, that magic CANNOT solve problems even modern day medicne can't. There are wounds which are beyond the skill of any healer, which several sources in-game confirms, and even Wynne uses conventional methods of treatment after her magic has closed the wound, as seen in banter with Alistair, so healing magic obviously got limits.

[EmperorSahlertz]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Losing 50% of what you own is never "on your terms", unless you would have lost much more had you not negotiated...

It depends on what the objectives of the belligerents are. I mean, Tevinter at that point, after a Blight, a famine, and a huge rebellion, was probably gunning for survival. In which case, the agreement satisfied their ultimate aims. If it was on the Andrastians' terms, there would not have been a Tevinter afterward.

It wasn't on the Andrastian's terms either. It was entirely on Maferath's terms. He got what he wanted, not Andraste nor Tevinter. Tevinter only partially got what they wanted, in Andraste, but that later backfired, and they had to surrender to the authority of the Chantry, which it took them centuries to overthrow.

[DKJaigen]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Losing 50% of what you own is never "on your terms", unless you would have lost much more had you not negotiated...

It depends on what the objectives of the belligerents are. I mean, Tevinter at that point, after a Blight, a famine, and a huge rebellion, was probably gunning for survival. In which case, the agreement satisfied their ultimate aims. If it was on the Andrastians' terms, there would not have been a Tevinter afterward.

It wasn't on the Andrastian's terms either. It was entirely on Maferath's terms. He got what he wanted, not Andraste nor Tevinter. Tevinter only partially got what they wanted, in Andraste, but that later backfired, and they had to surrender to the authority of the Chantry, which it took them centuries to overthrow.

To be honest this entire part of history is to incomplete to give an accurate answer. apparently after the death of Andraste and Mafereth the tevinter imperium hunted down the followers of andraste. And then suddenly Drakon appears. We are missing a piece of history here

[The Baconer]

[quote]tmp7704 wrote...
But what impact is "managing the infrastructure of an empire" supposed to have? I'm likely completely misreading your argument, because you appear to argue a really silly point that an operating empire is at combat disadvantage against unorganized bunch of supposed inferior primitives merely and by the very fact it is an organized empire.[/quote]

Ah, I misunderstood you. When you said, "So did the mundanes", I thought you were referring to Tevinter's subjects. In either case, it was a disadvantage for Tevinter. The barbarian hordes, after all, didn't have hordes of slaves at risk of rebelling. Nor did they endure the famine, as they had appeared from beyond the southern reaches of the Empire.

[quote]
So what is preventing the superior mages from maintaning their superior track record? I guess we have to conclude they've become less superior since the old times, seeing how now they can't even do any better than the mundanes around them?[/quote]

Well, at the moment I would say Tevinter is too busy soloing the Qunari.

Or maybe their great, powerful empire lasted for so long only because no one tried to actually get together and punch the mages in their noses to discover they bleed like the mundanes? Because see what happened to the great empire as soon as someone did.[/quote]

They were not the first. The Anderfels had previously rebelled, and was summarily reconquered.

[quote]Or how even the elf slaves could kick their asses out of Kirkwall once they got pissed off enough. And how oddly enough the superior mages failed to pick themselves up after that...[/quote]

See above. Qunari.

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...
And I must stress, that magic CANNOT solve problems even modern day
medicne can't. There are wounds which are beyond the skill of any
healer, which several sources in-game confirms, and even Wynne uses
conventional methods of treatment after her magic has closed the wound,
as seen in banter with Alistair, so healing magic obviously got limits.[/quote]

Yes, but without magic, most of your serious wounds are going to be a death sentence by infection or bleeding.

Modifié par The Baconer, 07 novembre 2011 - 02:09 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

Just like in the real world... Oh wait... The only reason that a small scar could cause death in Thedas, is because magic has held back actual tangible scientific discoveries. The people of Thedas has grown to rely on magic to solve too many of their problems, instead of themselves. Furthermore the reputation of mages has further hampered research, since it is apparently hard to be allowed to research the field (though evidently not impossible). Magic does indeed spoil everything it touches.

[The Baconer]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just like in the real world... Oh wait... The only reason that a small scar could cause death in Thedas, is because magic has held back actual tangible scientific discoveries.

1. Magic hasn't held anything back. From what we see from the lore and ingame, the Chantry isn't even interested in scientific discovery.

2. Magical study is synonymous with academic study in the Dragon Age world. Magic is just as much a science as medicine or biology.

3. Do you know how long it took for an effective antibacterial compound to be developed in real life? Thedas isn't even close to something like that. But maybe in another, uh, 1000 or so years at this rate.

The people of Thedas has grown to rely on magic to solve too many of their problems, instead of themselves. Furthermore the reputation of mages has further hampered research, since it is apparently hard to be allowed to research the field (though evidently not impossible). Magic does indeed spoil everything it touches.

>Stigmitize the practice of magic, but only when it's not convenient.

>Do nothing to contribute to academic advancement anyway

>GODAM MAGES Y THEY HAS TO RUIN EVERYTHING

[AlexXIV]

Even if it was true that the use of magic somehow hinders the progress of medical advancement, it's not like the mages or Circles forbid people to research it. Unlike the Chantry who actually forbids stuff just because they feel like it. Mostly because they maybe feel that people could discover things that don't match with the Chant or Chantry philosophy. The mages don't have this sort of religious base they need to protect or whatever.

Just take the Urn of Sacred Ashes. How long must it have existed yet the Chantry never botherd to put effort to find it. I guess at elast, since how else do you explain that the Warden and company found it rather quickly while before it was undicovered for centuries? Looks to me that the Chantry is very reluctant to unearth any sort of historical evidence in general. I mean they don't need it because all the 'truths' are written in the Chant and they are absolute. The only ones who have an advantage of evidence are those opposing the Chantry.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 07 novembre 2011 - 03:27 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Just like in the real world... Oh wait... The only reason that a small scar could cause death in Thedas, is because magic has held back actual tangible scientific discoveries. The people of Thedas has grown to rely on magic to solve too many of their problems, instead of themselves. Furthermore the reputation of mages has further hampered research, since it is apparently hard to be allowed to research the field (though evidently not impossible). Magic does indeed spoil everything it touches.

LoL, you're like Fenris and Meredith had a love child...

Based on the information from the game, it's the Chantry, and not "reliance on magic", that holds back non-magical research on the subject of medicine.  Or do you have a reference from in the game that states that it's reliance on magic, that we haven't seen? 

Never mind that in a world where magic exists, magic is just as valid a topic of academic, logical, methodical research as any other force of nature.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 07 novembre 2011 - 03:31 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The mages ARE the ones conducting science, hence why all science in Thedas is connected to magic. Only recently in Orlais has a university been created, which will no doubt usher in an era of actual science.
And you don't need antibiotics to be effective within the medical. Hell, herbs and leeches was where it all begun, and it was effective enough to save countless lives. And most importantly it lead to greater medical discoveries. Which magic certainly wont, or they already would've in the odd 1000 years they've had to study it. No matter how you twist and squirm, magic is the number one reason for why actual medical advancements haven't been done in Thedas for millenia.

The reason for anatomical research to be banned is for obvious reasons, probably foremost of those would be the undead, secondly would be the chance of blood magic. However, only one of those risks are present with a non-mage, and the Chantry is losing power, so actual research will be done in the years to come, which will be independant of any magical involvement.

There had been many expeditions previously which attempted to find the Urn, of the ones who were heard of again found nothing. The ones which were never heard of again probably met a grizzly end at the hands of the Dragon Cult guarding the mountain.

The Chantry has absolutely no reason to hold back medical research, they do however have many reasons to be reluctant to allow research on corpses, mainly because they have to worry about a little thing called undead. Nor are they interrested in letting mages access to research would would give them plenty of blood to play with.

I will still place my faith in the University of Orlais, and hope that the discoveries made there, will be of actual benefit to the populace, instead of the wasted resources in the Circles.

[Herr Uhl]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The reason for anatomical research to be banned is for obvious reasons, probably foremost of those would be the undead, secondly would be the chance of blood magic. However, only one of those risks are present with a non-mage, and the Chantry is losing power, so actual research will be done in the years to come, which will be independant of any magical involvement.

Does blood magic work on blood from a dead body?