1467 réponses à ce sujet

[Darji]

dreman9999 wrote...

Darji wrote...

xentar wrote...

Darji wrote...

2. Elder scrolls game are about the exploration and huge world if you want to skip that you probably should skip the whole game. And yes the game was beaten in 2 hours by people who know where to go and what to do. a normal player can beat ME2 easily in 8 hours even without knowing what to do. 

3. These changes were made becasue it was the new direction shooter games went. It was not to please the casual crowed like Bioware tries to do. All the mechanics Deus EX had would never work 10 years later. They were jsut outdated, The philosophy behind this game however never really changed.

2. 8 hours is a bit of a stretch. I tooke me almost 6 times as much, although I am indeed a slow player.

3. I'd disagree with that. Why wouldn't old mechanics work now? I see no reason not to.

The Main story in ME2 takes roughly 8-10 on a first playthrough. If you do all the other stuff which are not required to beat the game (including Character missions) then its more like 20-30 hours yes.

As for Deus Ex: Just play it again. Back tehn these controls were good or een great but today they are just outdated and terrible to use. the response for example is very bad in this game for today standards.  Its the same with the thief series. Back then the controls were great but today they are just a pain.

And I am here becasue I love RPGs and I want to play more thn 1 good RPG each year or even every 2 years.. This genre was already enough dumbed down and not only from Bioware. And now it really should be enough with this.

No, It take that long if your rush it.Any game is short if you rush it. My question is why anyone would want to rush through a rpg?

Its not rushing at all.  Its just the thing that there are not many missions to begin with. Again that does not include all the companion mission but only the ones you need to do.  Also thats without skipping any dialogue sequence at all.

[dreman9999]

Darji wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Darji wrote...

xentar wrote...

Darji wrote...

2. Elder scrolls game are about the exploration and huge world if you want to skip that you probably should skip the whole game. And yes the game was beaten in 2 hours by people who know where to go and what to do. a normal player can beat ME2 easily in 8 hours even without knowing what to do. 

3. These changes were made becasue it was the new direction shooter games went. It was not to please the casual crowed like Bioware tries to do. All the mechanics Deus EX had would never work 10 years later. They were jsut outdated, The philosophy behind this game however never really changed.

2. 8 hours is a bit of a stretch. I tooke me almost 6 times as much, although I am indeed a slow player.

3. I'd disagree with that. Why wouldn't old mechanics work now? I see no reason not to.

The Main story in ME2 takes roughly 8-10 on a first playthrough. If you do all the other stuff which are not required to beat the game (including Character missions) then its more like 20-30 hours yes.

As for Deus Ex: Just play it again. Back tehn these controls were good or een great but today they are just outdated and terrible to use. the response for example is very bad in this game for today standards.  Its the same with the thief series. Back then the controls were great but today they are just a pain.

And I am here becasue I love RPGs and I want to play more thn 1 good RPG each year or even every 2 years.. This genre was already enough dumbed down and not only from Bioware. And now it really should be enough with this.

No, It take that long if your rush it.Any game is short if you rush it. My question is why anyone would want to rush through a rpg?

Its not rushing at all.  Its just the thing that there are not many missions to begin with. Again that does not include all the companion mission but only the ones you need to do.  Also thats without skipping any dialogue sequence at all.

If you don't do the optional missions, your rushing. ME1 has even less manditiory missions then ME2 amd it takes even less time tobeat the game. All wrpgs are like that. That's why side quest exsist, they give the game meat.

[Balek-Vriege]

dreman9999 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Darji wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

The purpose is to allow people to play the way they want to play.

If you believe that and never read any interviews...

There aim is "to go blockbuster" with sales reaches 10 million like cod and gears do. Thats the only reason to include such nonens like the "Action Mode".

Question:  If it works, wouldn't it be worth it?

And if the time was minimal to implement more complicated dialogue scripts to govern auto-convo option, then is it a big loss if they don't bring in a gazillion sales?

Based on the demo, and the fact that the script is larger than ME1 and ME2., it's clear dialogue is not cut at all. 

like the script was large in ME and ME2 to begin with....

Just to clarify just incase people are taking "Script" to mean movie script.

They're basically simplistic (I say that lightly) prefabricated command lines with conditions and actions which govern most things ingame based off the engine.  They control dialogue, quest markers, whether pushing a button causes ingame causes lights to come one or a door to open, cinematics etc.

Usually when you encounter a bug in a game, a script wasn't written correctly.  My argument is that scripting dialogue is usually the easiest thing to do in games which allow you to make your own mods (Fallout 3/NV, NWN series etc.)  If it's the easiest thing for noob modders like myself in those games, then how hard can it be to implement an auto-choice option via scripting for pro scripters/programmers?

Your confusing Diologe with script. I wasreferring tothe action and statements ofthe character scene to scene. Their isa script for that you know. With games and animated movies, the consepts of a scriptis split to actor and animator. The Actor doesthe vocal emotion and the animator does the phyical acting ang body language. Scripts like that are big. Of cours that's due to having story borads used with it as well.

Ok I thought you me pegged there when it came to game scripting rather than a script for story.  Just wanted to make sure.  I wasn't sure we were talking about the same thing.


Evidence that Bioware is spending too much time on adding additional "streamlined" script for Auto-Choices should translate into more simplistic dialogue scenes.  If they have more action and detail than ever during dialogue (like Escape from Earth part of demo), than the focus on RP dialogue scenes wasn't diverted too much or at all by Auto-Choices being implemented.

Really all the hard scripting is done for the scenes themselves I would think.  All they need to do is disable appearance of a dialogue tree and make the script choose an option instead.  Probably the easiest way to do that would be to use "If autochoice is On, choose option A, Else show dialogue tree" like functions. 

Modifié par Balek-Vriege, 05 novembre 2011 - 06:26 .

[tonnactus]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Lets be realistic here too.  If Action Mode basically means auto-choice dialogue, then it essentially plays like a JRPG.  Are JRPGs not RPGs?

According to the bioware founders,they arent...
http://www.destructo...n--155782.phtml

Real life satire is this called i guess.

Remember, we still have RPG Mode and Story Mode which plays exactly like ME1/ME2.  Even if Action Mode disabled leveling etc.,

Or it will be autoleveling.

[Nohvarr]

Oh don’t get me wrong, I like the direction they are going in for the most part. As with any evolving system there will be some bumps along the way but the end result is worth it in my opinion. In fact I’ve noticed that streamlining and rpg system fitting into the game world are becoming more common. DE: HR technically has you gaining new augs as your mind adjust to your changes, The Witcher 2 is more about Geralt remembering what he has forgotten, Skyrim has your stats written in the stars (a nice touch), Mass Effect allows you to change the stats and visuals of your gear at workbenches, and Kingdoms of Amular has you being the Fateless, the one being in the world that can create their own destiny (character class).

So overall I’m good with where things are going in general.

The only thing this devised setting system offers is some automated responses to the Action mode... which is beyond me in why anyone would want to let a choice-driven game -- and RPG at that -- play (most of?) itself...

Well, there is a market, considering that Final Fantasy 11 allowed players to set-up a gambit system that automated the game, while ff13’s combat system involved the player as little as possible.

The Main story in ME2 takes roughly 8-10 on a first playthrough. If you do all the other stuff which are not required to beat the game (including Character missions) then its more like 20-30 hours yes.

Oh, so you mean activating the game at the halfway point without building up your squad and equipment. Yes you have that option, just like you now have the option to speed through the story or avoid as much of the combat as you like.

As for Deus Ex: Just play it again. Back tehn these controls were good or een great but today they are just outdated and terrible to use. the response for example is very bad in this game for today standards. Its the same with the thief series. Back then the controls were great but today they are just a pain.

So it’s like with ME 1 to ME 2 where the controls and combat were not precise in the first game, and vastly improved in the second. Then they went on to rework the vehicle because the Mako’s control were universally panned, improved the pace of combat by making shooting precise, add back in the interrupts that fans wanted (since they saw them in the demo for ME 1), and even gave players the cance to romance Tali and Garrus.

Sounds like Bioware was listening to me

And I am here becasue I love RPGs and I want to play more thn 1 good RPG each year or even every 2 years.. This genre was already enough dumbed down and not only from Bioware. And now it really should be enough with this.

Mass Effect was always supposed to be part third person shooter part RPG. I don’t know if you’ve bothered to look at what’s been confirmed on the RPG side, or if you have looked and decided to ignore it. So far we’ve seen that (from ME 2) the character and weapons customization has been improved and that decisions we’ve made will be represented in ME 3.

So yeah, you’re still taking out your rage on ME 3, and if that’s your goal then it still puts your comments in perspective.

[Darji]

dreman9999 wrote...

Darji wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Darji wrote...

xentar wrote...

Darji wrote...

2. Elder scrolls game are about the exploration and huge world if you want to skip that you probably should skip the whole game. And yes the game was beaten in 2 hours by people who know where to go and what to do. a normal player can beat ME2 easily in 8 hours even without knowing what to do. 

3. These changes were made becasue it was the new direction shooter games went. It was not to please the casual crowed like Bioware tries to do. All the mechanics Deus EX had would never work 10 years later. They were jsut outdated, The philosophy behind this game however never really changed.

2. 8 hours is a bit of a stretch. I tooke me almost 6 times as much, although I am indeed a slow player.

3. I'd disagree with that. Why wouldn't old mechanics work now? I see no reason not to.

The Main story in ME2 takes roughly 8-10 on a first playthrough. If you do all the other stuff which are not required to beat the game (including Character missions) then its more like 20-30 hours yes.

As for Deus Ex: Just play it again. Back tehn these controls were good or een great but today they are just outdated and terrible to use. the response for example is very bad in this game for today standards.  Its the same with the thief series. Back then the controls were great but today they are just a pain.

And I am here becasue I love RPGs and I want to play more thn 1 good RPG each year or even every 2 years.. This genre was already enough dumbed down and not only from Bioware. And now it really should be enough with this.

No, It take that long if your rush it.Any game is short if you rush it. My question is why anyone would want to rush through a rpg?

Its not rushing at all.  Its just the thing that there are not many missions to begin with. Again that does not include all the companion mission but only the ones you need to do.  Also thats without skipping any dialogue sequence at all.

If you don't do the optional missions, your rushing. ME1 has even less manditiory missions then ME2 amd it takes even less time tobeat the game. All wrpgs are like that. That's why side quest exsist, they give the game meat.

Games like the Witcher  or even Origins are evidence enough that  this is not the case. As for other Bioware games since Kotor. Yes its the truth. These games were always rewally short if you just do the main stuff.

[dreman9999]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Darji wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

tonnactus wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

The purpose is to allow people to play the way they want to play.

If you believe that and never read any interviews...

There aim is "to go blockbuster" with sales reaches 10 million like cod and gears do. Thats the only reason to include such nonens like the "Action Mode".

Question:  If it works, wouldn't it be worth it?

And if the time was minimal to implement more complicated dialogue scripts to govern auto-convo option, then is it a big loss if they don't bring in a gazillion sales?

Based on the demo, and the fact that the script is larger than ME1 and ME2., it's clear dialogue is not cut at all. 

like the script was large in ME and ME2 to begin with....

Just to clarify just incase people are taking "Script" to mean movie script.

They're basically simplistic (I say that lightly) prefabricated command lines with conditions and actions which govern most things ingame based off the engine.  They control dialogue, quest markers, whether pushing a button causes ingame causes lights to come one or a door to open, cinematics etc.

Usually when you encounter a bug in a game, a script wasn't written correctly.  My argument is that scripting dialogue is usually the easiest thing to do in games which allow you to make your own mods (Fallout 3/NV, NWN series etc.)  If it's the easiest thing for noob modders like myself in those games, then how hard can it be to implement an auto-choice option via scripting for pro scripters/programmers?

Your confusing Diologe with script. I wasreferring tothe action and statements ofthe character scene to scene. Their isa script for that you know. With games and animated movies, the consepts of a scriptis split to actor and animator. The Actor doesthe vocal emotion and the animator does the phyical acting ang body language. Scripts like that are big. Of cours that's due to having story borads used with it as well.

Ok I thought you me pegged there when it came to game scripting rather than a script for story.  Just wanted to make sure.  I wasn't sure we were talking about the same thing.


Evidence that Bioware is spending too much time on adding additional "streamlined" script for Auto-Choices should translate into more simplistic dialogue scenes.  If they have more action and detail than ever during dialogue (like Escape from Earth part of demo), than the focus on RP dialogue scenes wasn't diverted too much or at all by Auto-Choices being implemented.

Really all the hard scripting is done for the scenes themselves I would think.  All they need to do is disable appearance of a dialogue tree and make the script choose an option instead.  Probably the easiest way to do that would be to use "If autochoice is On, choose option A, Else show dialogue tree" like functions. 

Exactly, make an auto choice system is easy. They just have to pick one of the setsof lines as the main. No reason to think they are losing resourcestomake this mode.:innocent:

[Vegos]

Can I have "Silly mode" in which all characters wear silly hats then?

And maybe give us "Thespian mode" as well, where everyone speaks ye olde englishe?

[dreman9999]

Darji wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Darji wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Darji wrote...

xentar wrote...

Darji wrote...

2. Elder scrolls game are about the exploration and huge world if you want to skip that you probably should skip the whole game. And yes the game was beaten in 2 hours by people who know where to go and what to do. a normal player can beat ME2 easily in 8 hours even without knowing what to do. 

3. These changes were made becasue it was the new direction shooter games went. It was not to please the casual crowed like Bioware tries to do. All the mechanics Deus EX had would never work 10 years later. They were jsut outdated, The philosophy behind this game however never really changed.

2. 8 hours is a bit of a stretch. I tooke me almost 6 times as much, although I am indeed a slow player.

3. I'd disagree with that. Why wouldn't old mechanics work now? I see no reason not to.

The Main story in ME2 takes roughly 8-10 on a first playthrough. If you do all the other stuff which are not required to beat the game (including Character missions) then its more like 20-30 hours yes.

As for Deus Ex: Just play it again. Back tehn these controls were good or een great but today they are just outdated and terrible to use. the response for example is very bad in this game for today standards.  Its the same with the thief series. Back then the controls were great but today they are just a pain.

And I am here becasue I love RPGs and I want to play more thn 1 good RPG each year or even every 2 years.. This genre was already enough dumbed down and not only from Bioware. And now it really should be enough with this.

No, It take that long if your rush it.Any game is short if you rush it. My question is why anyone would want to rush through a rpg?

Its not rushing at all.  Its just the thing that there are not many missions to begin with. Again that does not include all the companion mission but only the ones you need to do.  Also thats without skipping any dialogue sequence at all.

If you don't do the optional missions, your rushing. ME1 has even less manditiory missions then ME2 amd it takes even less time tobeat the game. All wrpgs are like that. That's why side quest exsist, they give the game meat.

Games like the Witcher  or even Origins are evidence enough that  this is not the case. As for other Bioware games since Kotor. Yes its the truth. These games were always rewally short if you just do the main stuff.

Origins has padded dungeons that are made to be longer thenit should.(Like that fade jump you do in the mage tower.) And let's not start about the back traking. And Witcher is mostly side quest. Also, BG2 is mostly side quest, the start of the game is side quest. What makes the game long is getting the 10,000 gold.

Modifié par dreman9999, 05 novembre 2011 - 06:35 .

[dreman9999]

Vegos wrote...

Can I have "Silly mode" in which all characters wear silly hats then?

And maybe give us "Thespian mode" as well, where everyone speaks ye olde englishe?

Also, a DR. WHO mode and a where's waldo mode.

[Balek-Vriege]

tonnactus wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

Lets be realistic here too.  If Action Mode basically means auto-choice dialogue, then it essentially plays like a JRPG.  Are JRPGs not RPGs?

According to the bioware founders,they arent...
http://www.destructo...n--155782.phtml

Real life satire is this called i guess.

I asked you whether you think JRPGs are RPGs, not Bioware.  No where in that article does he say JRPGs are not RPGs, just that they haven't evolved and given people RPG proper experiences (which is correct, they're actually devolving).  From the mid to late 90s JRPGs were the only big time RPGs out there until Fallout, Baldur's Gate etc. came out.  Alot of people think RPG elements have nothing to do with dialogue choices and instead are mostly character, level and item progression.

Remember, we still have RPG Mode and Story Mode which plays exactly like ME1/ME2.  Even if Action Mode disabled leveling etc.,

Or it will be autoleveling.

Most likely will be autoleveling.  That's nothing new since it's been around as an option since ME1.  Again a choice which you can turn off.

[Vegos]

Exactly, if more modes means more customer satisfaction and more hordes of people buying the game,why stop at only three different modes.

[Nohvarr]

Vegos wrote...

Exactly, if more modes means more customer satisfaction and more hordes of people buying the game,why stop at only three different modes.

Only so much you can do with the resources at hand, and the direction you wish to go. Providing and action and story mode is a concession that won't cost much to implemnt. Putting in 'Blitz Ball' or victorian dialogue would cost more resources than they're likey to make back.

[Eternal Phoenix]

I like these ideas! So now, there's even more replayability with Mass Effect as each playthrough will truly be different. I wonder how story mode will be different from combat mode though. Will combat be shown in cut scenes? Why will there be a lack of story in combat mode? Is Shepard quick tempered in this mode? (Edit: I've read that there are auto-choices made in this mode)  Nevertheless, it sounds very interesting and I'll be playing through all of the three modes just to see how different they all are. Combine that with the choices and I can see it being as replyable as Dragon Age: Origins for me.

Modifié par Elton John is dead, 05 novembre 2011 - 06:49 .

[slimgrin]

I want A.D.D mode cause I have a hard time reading long sentences.

[tonnactus]

Balek-Vriege wrote...

I asked you whether you think JRPGs are RPGs, not Bioware.

Well,not my kind of rpg and not distinct enough from games like Batman or Star Wars Unleashed.(who also had some kind of progress)

[xentar]

Darji wrote...

xentar wrote...

Darji wrote...

2. Elder scrolls game are about the exploration and huge world if you want to skip that you probably should skip the whole game. And yes the game was beaten in 2 hours by people who know where to go and what to do. a normal player can beat ME2 easily in 8 hours even without knowing what to do. 

3. These changes were made becasue it was the new direction shooter games went. It was not to please the casual crowed like Bioware tries to do. All the mechanics Deus EX had would never work 10 years later. They were jsut outdated, The philosophy behind this game however never really changed.

2. 8 hours is a bit of a stretch. I tooke me almost 6 times as much, although I am indeed a slow player.

3. I'd disagree with that. Why wouldn't old mechanics work now? I see no reason not to.

The Main story in ME2 takes roughly 8-10 on a first playthrough. If you do all the other stuff which are not required to beat the game (including Character missions) then its more like 20-30 hours yes.

As for Deus Ex: Just play it again. Back tehn these controls were good or een great but today they are just outdated and terrible to use. the response for example is very bad in this game for today standards.  Its the same with the thief series. Back then the controls were great but today they are just a pain.

And I am here becasue I love RPGs and I want to play more thn 1 good RPG each year or even every 2 years.. This genre was already enough dumbed down and not only from Bioware. And now it really should be enough with this.

I played it something like a few months ago last time, I think. Haven't noticed anything strange, although I am a bit of a retrogamer.

[Nerevar-as]

I started playing the first Deus Ex short ago. I´m having no problems with combat. What do you mean?

[Balek-Vriege]

tonnactus wrote...

Balek-Vriege wrote...

I asked you whether you think JRPGs are RPGs, not Bioware.

Well,not my kind of rpg and not distinct enough from games like Batman or Star Wars Unleashed.(who also had some kind of progress)

I agree, even though I used to love old school JRPGs.

[Sir Caradoc]

My reaction to this news piece is in short: "facepalm"

This is the new  low for trying to make a game with  absolute universal appeal. That simply doesn't work because it is impossible to please everyone.

What will likely end up happening  is that ME3 will be a game that ultimately doesn't
completely appeal to anyone because it's not sure what it wants to be,
and the developers won't commit to a firm, cohesive, and decisive  direction.

Modifié par Sir Caradoc, 05 novembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[dreman9999]

Sir Caradoc wrote...

My reaction to this news piece is in short: "facepalm"

I usually don't like to join in on the Bioware-rants, but this is the new  low for trying to make a game with
absolute universal appeal. That simply doesn't work because it is impossible to please everyone.

What will likely end up happening  is that ME3 will be a game that ultimately doesn't
completely appeal to anyone because it's not sure what it wants to be,
and the developers won't commit to a firm, cohesive, and decisive  direction.

So your saying that cutting features to make games easier so more people can play it is better than just making game modes for every type of playerso any type of play can playthe game and still like it.

You reather BW cut the rpg features out instead of making a rpg mode and a action/story mode.

[Balek-Vriege]

Sir Caradoc wrote...

My reaction to this news piece is in short: "facepalm"

I usually don't like to join in on the Bioware-rants, but this is the new  low for trying to make a game with
absolute universal appeal. That simply doesn't work because it is impossible to please everyone.

What will likely end up happening  is that ME3 will be a game that ultimately doesn't
completely appeal to anyone because it's not sure what it wants to be,
and the developers won't commit to a firm, cohesive, and decisive  direction.

By that reasoning Mass Effect 1 shouldn't have been successful, but the direction has always been an Action RPG.  It doesn't have to be one thing or another, it just has to be Mass Effect.

[Kingthlayer]

Obviously RPG mode would be the one that gets the most use. But on a third or fourth or twentieth play of Mass Effect 3 you might not want to deal with that much dialogue so you chose the action mode.

And of course story mode is for the extremely casual gamer, someone who just wants to sit back and enjoy a good story and not have to deal with a lot of shooting.

[Someone With Mass]

They're trying to appeal to everyone within the genres. RPG, story and action. Not that different from what they've done before.

[Shepard the Leper]

Someone With Mass wrote...

They're trying to appeal to everyone within the genres. RPG, story and action. Not that different from what they've done before.

I've yet to meet the first gamedeveloper, designer, artist etc who tries to appeal to nobody, or as few people possible - that's silly.