1467 réponses à ce sujet

[Doctoglethorpe]

Sepewrath wrote...

Haven't been to BSN in awhile, happy to see the place hasn't changed. People still overreacting the smallest, most insignificant things, making Texas sized asteroids out of mole hills and such. Its blonde Shep all over again lol.

Yuuup.  Spot on. 

I ask myself why I keep coming back here but I never have a good answer. 

[Gatt9]

ARTHURIUSS wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...


Alot of people live alternative lifestyles,  by virtue of your arguement,  Peter Jackson should have had an alternate cut of Lord of the Rings where Aragorn was madly in love with Frodo and not Arwen right?  Harry Potter should have had alternate books and movies where he went to a Catholic school and not a Wizardry school,  because there's alot of Catholics who think witches are evil,  right?

The simple reason why I'm certain this is a DA2 train-wreck now is because of this,  and Kinect,  and Multiplayer.  When you make a game,  you come up with a concept,  and you implement it.  You don't comprimise it,  or waste time implementing useless features and money-making impediments.  When you do that,  you lose the vision of the game,  and the cohesion of the game.  You end up with a disaster,  because instead of trying to do what it was meant to do really well,  it just ends up a mish-mash of features haphazardly thrown together.

That's where ME3 looks to be at.

ME series is a single player narrative driven game.  It's not a multiplayer game.  It's not a good shooter.  It's not a toy-game to show off a fairly useless peripheral.  So what is the point of trying to shoehorn those features into it?

EA doesn't do games that won't appeal to the biggest demographic they can find.  Expect long series of forced shooting sequences,  with likely the same 1990's era AI from ME2,  so that the Action-gamers are happy.

Because that's what this means.  No more focusing on story and conversation,  forced extended sequences of shooting to satisfy the Gears of War crowd,  with heavily downplayed dialogue and story,  and virtually no choice or consequence since that won't mesh well with their new focus.

Time for me to seriously consider cancelling my preorder,  it's really looking like they're releasing another Awesome Button game.

Of course,  in retrospect,  Christina Norman's slideshow where she tried to get street cred by inserting an image of old (And wrong) D&D books is hands-down hysterical now since at the same time she was apparently implementing a way to completely avoid playing an RPG in an RPG. 

Your argument is so so damned illogical that it actually had me in splits.Your obviously impassioned rage is commendable but grossly misdirected.I'd suggest hanging onto that pre-order before you somehow contrive to make a bigger fool of yourself!

You might want to start reading Gamasutra,  one of us is a fool,  but it isn't me.  I'd recommend you start by reading post-mortems,  to find out exactly why I'm right.

You don't have to take it from me,  you can take it from the words of dozens of developers.

Funny enough, in another thread I said something along the lines of: "it's liike people wanted BioWare to settle for mediocrity when it came to one of their most important gameplay elements, shooting." Post like Gatt's prove my point.

Your point was that Bioware should quit making RPGs and start focusing on making good Shooters?  Because E3 being almost completely shooters wasn't enough?

I'll check in with you next year and see if you still think making yet another shooter was such a great idea.

(Btw,  you might want to start doing some research on the NPD numbers for 2010,  and 2011.  I'd also recommend reading EA's quarterlies,  and Gamespots commentary on EA games this year.  Turns out,  the market's showing negative growth almost every month,  and EA's games aren't selling.  So posts like yours show why,  "Let's make another pure-shooter,  because the last 4 have done so well!",  except,  they haven't.  They've all underperformed,  Two (Maybe 3 of them) severely underperformed.  It's just math.  If the last 4 shooters didn't sell,  turning an RPG into another shooter is going to do what?)

It's pretty damn clear BioWare simply doesn't want its old, RPG fans any more. They just want the $$$ and the audience that brings them it.

This has already been happening over the past couple of years, but stuff like that basically cements it. BioWare branches out, gradually weeds out its old fans by bringing in the "herp derp" group, then in a few years time BioWare washes itself of its old fans almost entirely and just starts making action games for its new audience like every other big developer.

This isn't branching out and growing the audience, it's merely a transition to a more profitable one.

Actually Terror,  I'd argue it's not a more profitable audience.  Bulletstorm underperformed,  Dead Space 2 underperfomed so badly EA resorted to reporting units shipped instead of sold in their quarterly,  and Shadows of the Damned did amazingly bad.  Further,  Dragon Age 2 bombed,  and NFL 2011 is selling worse than last year the last time I looked. 

I'd argue that EA's just in desperation mode at this point,  trying to find some way to sell it's games,  because it's year has been really bad.  Which is a serious problem considering they're in what?  100 million on Star Wars,  and nearly 1 billion on buying Popcap? 

Further,  if you look at the news on EA since BF3's release,  the started out announcing "We shipped 10 million units!!!",  then a couple days later they announced "We sold 5 million units!!!".  Which first tells us they sold only half of their initial shipment,  which was what they expected to sell,  and second tells us there's something seriously wrong at EA when they're releasing contradictory press releases within days of each other.

Then look at Bioware,  who can't even get an answer on Origin's inclusion.

I'd say there's alot of indications EA's distressed at this point.  So I'd venture this is just another symptom,  where features were shoehorned in with the hopes that it'd increase sales because of the consistent underperformance of their titles this year,  and their excessive expenses.

Modifié par Gatt9, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:00 .

[Terror_K]

dreman9999 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

It's pretty damn clear BioWare simply doesn't want its old, RPG fans any more. They just want the $$$ and the audience that brings them it.

This has already been happening over the past couple of years, but stuff like that basically cements it. BioWare branches out, gradually weeds out its old fans by bringing in the "herp derp" group, then in a few years time BioWare washes itself of its old fans almost entirely and just starts making action games for its new audience like every other big developer.

This isn't branching out and growing the audience, it's merely a transition to a more profitable one.

Sure, because making a mode for us first than making differentmodes for diffent  players based off are mode is a clear sign they don't care for us.

Oh, they want to have their cake at eat it too at the moment, so they want to see if they can bring in a new audience and keep the old one too. But if they don't, we're acceptable losses, despite getting them where they are and more than a decade of loyalty, because the Modern Warfare set are far bigger and will result in more profits as far as they're concerned. It's okay stabbing somebody once loyal if another five new loyal people take his/her place.

[ElitePinecone]

Terror_K wrote...
Oh, they want to have their cake at eat it too at the moment, so they want to see if they can bring in a new audience and keep the old one too. But if they don't, we're acceptable losses, despite getting them where they are and more than a decade of loyalty, because the Modern Warfare set are far bigger and will result in more profits as far as they're concerned. It's okay stabbing somebody once loyal if another five new loyal people take his/her place.

Question: have you seen the demo footage?

Thoughts? 

[Trinity66]

RPG mode and the highest difficulty. I want to see, explore, kill, talk to ... everything! And I want to be a challenge and to take as much time as possible.

EDIT: I feel sorry for folks who can't enjoy the game the way I do. But whatever, they might enjoy other games instead, if thats not their type.

Modifié par Trinity66, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:29 .

[Doctoglethorpe]

Terror_K wrote...

Oh, they want to have their cake at eat it too at the moment, so they want to see if they can bring in a new audience and keep the old one too. But if they don't, we're acceptable losses, despite getting them where they are and more than a decade of loyalty, because the Modern Warfare set are far bigger and will result in more profits as far as they're concerned. It's okay stabbing somebody once loyal if another five new loyal people take his/her place.

Your point would be valid if the "RPG Mode" didn't still exist. 

But... it does. 

[darknoon5]

Terror_K wrote...

dreman9999 wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

It's pretty damn clear BioWare simply doesn't want its old, RPG fans any more. They just want the $$$ and the audience that brings them it.

This has already been happening over the past couple of years, but stuff like that basically cements it. BioWare branches out, gradually weeds out its old fans by bringing in the "herp derp" group, then in a few years time BioWare washes itself of its old fans almost entirely and just starts making action games for its new audience like every other big developer.

This isn't branching out and growing the audience, it's merely a transition to a more profitable one.

Sure, because making a mode for us first than making differentmodes for diffent  players based off are mode is a clear sign they don't care for us.

Oh, they want to have their cake at eat it too at the moment, so they want to see if they can bring in a new audience and keep the old one too. But if they don't, we're acceptable losses, despite getting them where they are and more than a decade of loyalty, because the Modern Warfare set are far bigger and will result in more profits as far as they're concerned. It's okay stabbing somebody once loyal if another five new loyal people take his/her place.

Hey terror, I just have to say, you're making an even bigger fool of yourself then usual this thread.

Adding in a feature any programmer could develop in minimal time isn't "stabbing the old fanbase in the back." I suppose for you that's ME2?

[TobyHasEyes]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Oh, they want to have their cake at eat it too at the moment, so they want to see if they can bring in a new audience and keep the old one too. But if they don't, we're acceptable losses, despite getting them where they are and more than a decade of loyalty, because the Modern Warfare set are far bigger and will result in more profits as far as they're concerned. It's okay stabbing somebody once loyal if another five new loyal people take his/her place.

Your point would be valid if the "RPG Mode" didn't still exist. 

But... it does. 

 This.

 And people put way too much by loyalty in this thing.. you are not showing some moral virtue, you keep buying some games you like.. you paid the money and you got the product and requisite hours of fun
 

[Vegos]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Oh, they want to have their cake at eat it too at the moment, so they want to see if they can bring in a new audience and keep the old one too. But if they don't, we're acceptable losses, despite getting them where they are and more than a decade of loyalty, because the Modern Warfare set are far bigger and will result in more profits as far as they're concerned. It's okay stabbing somebody once loyal if another five new loyal people take his/her place.

Your point would be valid if the "RPG Mode" didn't still exist. 

But... it does. 

There's something inherently funny with talking about a "RPG mode" in a game that was supposed to be a RPG without any mode toggling in the first place, however...

It also seems I have exhausted my cranky bag, and am going to go on with being mildly amused at the sheer absurdity of the situation instead.

Modifié par Vegos, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:47 .

[Inquisitor Recon]

I'm going to give my 2 cents and say I think these different modes are pointless. Unless you're playing the standard RPG mode you're pretty much losing out on half the game. So pointless.

[Zatwu]

Its no big deal, nothing is taken out and everything added is otional.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

I'm extremely pleased that BioWare is moving ever closer to a "cinematic" game mode - one where I create a character, create a personality from 3-4 archetypes and then let the entire game play itself: combat, exploration, dialog and all.

While this is far from ideal, I'm glad that BioWare is mindful of my tastes and wants to add choice in how people can play their games.













On a practical level, this means **** all. It doesn't change anything, really.
The problem is that the implications of the modes is that the consumer base is becoming either too impatient or too unwilling to engage in the game's content as intended. This "choice in how to play" is marketing BS, that only works when you add new features that are optional, not take away features (choosing dialog options).

Modifié par mrcrusty, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:57 .

[panamakira]

I also agree with OP that is a great idea. Why people want to shove their preference in game style down other players throats it's beyond me ("It should just be RPG mode!1!!1!!)....Seriously. If they're willing to offer many options for players to enjoy the game however they wish then I think it's a brilliant idea. We've yet to see if it is indeed executed well.

[Terror_K]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

Oh, they want to have their cake at eat it too at the moment, so they want to see if they can bring in a new audience and keep the old one too. But if they don't, we're acceptable losses, despite getting them where they are and more than a decade of loyalty, because the Modern Warfare set are far bigger and will result in more profits as far as they're concerned. It's okay stabbing somebody once loyal if another five new loyal people take his/her place.

Your point would be valid if the "RPG Mode" didn't still exist. 

But... it does. 

It's too early to "abandon" their old fanbase yet though. Like I said, they want to have their cake and eat it too. They're still essentially in the early stages of transitioning from the old to the new. If they just leapt straight from RPG Maker to Action Game Maker what they're doing would be too obvious to everybody. They have to gradually dilute their current RPGs first. They already got busted for moving too quickly with Dragon Age 2 after all. Once they've definitely raked in enough of the Modern Warfare audience for it to pay off, then we'll see the RPG going entirely. They don't want to drive away all their old fans in massive and obvious droves, they want them to gradually walk away over time.

Modifié par Terror_K, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:01 .

[Seboist]

Vegos wrote...

There's something inherently funny with talking about a "RPG mode" in a game that was supposed to be a RPG without any mode toggling in the first place, however...

It also seems I have exhausted my cranky bag, and am going to go on with being mildly amused at the sheer absurdity of the situation instead.

Indeed, this further illustrates that ME is little more than Gears of War with a conversation simulator and "choices" that are more fake than silicone. This pretty much guarantees that there isn't a lick of difference between the "paths" (as if it wasn't obvious enough with the previous games).

[D.Kain]

Gatt9 wrote...


Alot of people live alternative lifestyles,  by virtue of your arguement,  Peter Jackson should have had an alternate cut of Lord of the Rings where Aragorn was madly in love with Frodo and not Arwen right?  Harry Potter should have had alternate books and movies where he went to a Catholic school and not a Wizardry school,  because there's alot of Catholics who think witches are evil,  right?

If I would play Lord of the rings game I would want to play MY character, that I would name, and that would fit in the story where I want that character to fit.

If I played a wizard game, I wouldn't want to play Harry Potter, but a new student at Hogwarts and choose a faculty and shape personality from scratch.

Indeed in ME Shepard is not MY character, sadly.

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

Seboist wrote...

Vegos wrote...

There's something inherently funny with talking about a "RPG mode" in a game that was supposed to be a RPG without any mode toggling in the first place, however...

It also seems I have exhausted my cranky bag, and am going to go on with being mildly amused at the sheer absurdity of the situation instead.

Indeed, this further illustrates that ME is little more than Gears of War with a conversation simulator and "choices" that are more fake than silicone. This pretty much guarantees that there isn't a lick of difference between the "paths" (as if it wasn't obvious enough with the previous games).

That is one thing I hadn't considered but it also a very valid point. If dialog (and presumably plot) choices were automated, that would probably mean that either that there will be little (if any) branching storylines that you can play out (something like Alpha Protocol or New Vegas, let alone Witcher 2), or that all the people playing Action mode would have to miss out on a significant amount of content, which I doubt.

That would be unfortunate.

Oh well.

At least Multiplayer's looking pretty good.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[ElitePinecone]

But we don't know how the automatic conversations work.

Can the player specify paragon or renegade paths, for instance?

Given that practically every decision is binary, how would this differ from normal gameplay and just picking all paragon or renegade options?

Point is: we don't know how it'll work.

[Nohvarr]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

Sepewrath wrote...

Haven't been to BSN in awhile, happy to see the place hasn't changed. People still overreacting the smallest, most insignificant things, making Texas sized asteroids out of mole hills and such. Its blonde Shep all over again lol.

Yuuup.  Spot on. 

I ask myself why I keep coming back here but I never have a good answer. 

I generally swing by to see if thre's any new Mass Effect informaion. Every now and again I'll comment but there's really no point since it's always the same argument. Terror K complains about how Bioware is ignoring their old school fans which is funnny as I am one and have been happy with the ME series and i'm not alone. Seboist or someone lke that poster says ME is now just a Gears of War clone with fake choices. Again bull, since the decision to keep Wrex alive alters the feel of an entire world, and other such decisions were sprinkled throughout ME 2, and the unpolished ME 3 demo already has Wrex, Garrus and Captain Kirrahe show up (with kirrahe helping out in a figh) all of whom can die in past games. Darj's harping on DA 2 is a slightly more new occurance but really has no place on this section of BSN since DA has it's own section.

The Witcher 2 comparisons are interesting to me, but only because the Witcher 2 is a self contained game that ignores a lot of what happened in Witcher 1, and gives you a main character who is far more predefined than Commander Shepard. It's a perfectly good game, but I've enjoyed Bioware's ME series much more, if nothing else Biowares characters are significantly more likeable to me than the ones in TW2. Also the controls need some tightening in TW2 as I've too often run into noticable delay between giving a command and seeing it executed. Then there's the potion system where you must drink everything before a fight, which is fine when you know one is going to happen but get's annoying during battles that are sprung on your or that occur after lengthy cutscenes. Had they simply halved the effectivness of a potion taken during battle as opposed to one taken out of combat I'd be more tolerant but the system they used (especially considering how it worked in TW 1) had a needlessly long animation that felt like my character was tasting wine before a fight.

Honestly though this is about how bad things were before the release of ME 2, which culminated in some people leaving the forums over the LI's and lack of Wrex. So perhaps another mass voluntary purge is on the way and I really can't say I'll be upset if some people decide to cancel their pre-orders and leave. Perhaps BSN will become more reasonable and civil when we don't have as many people looking for a reason to be upset.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:32 .

[Vegos]

Perhaps BSN will become more reasonable and civil when we don't have as many people looking for a reaso to be upset.

Why did I suddenly think of Blackadder's description of heaven (Season 1, episode 3)?

Though, honestly, I don't get this "I'm upset so I'm leaving and slamming the door on the way out" attitude, true. Doesn't accomplish anything.

Modifié par Vegos, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:33 .

[Terror_K]

Nohvarr wrote...

Perhaps BSN will become more reasonable and civil when we don't have as many people looking for a reason to be upset.

Yeah... like it's a big coincidence that this place started going downhill about the time ME2 started all that "it's as much a shooter as an RPG now" nonsense around E3.

Perhaps I wouldn't be getting upset all the time if BioWare actually released something good about Mass Effect 3, but it seems every new announcement is pandering, mainstream crap aimed at reeling in the mainstream shooter player. Kinect, wanking on the stupid omni-blade, Multiplayer, Cliffy B's endorsement, and how this crap... it's all pandering to the same audience and the type of stuff I'm sick of seeing BioWare do lately. It exemplifies completely what's wrong with the company at the moment, the marketing at the moment and the slippery slope they've been riding since about the time EA took over.

Things actually looked pretty damn good at the start with the Game Informer article and news of the RPG coming back, with the weapon-modding and skill branching. The Earth/Anderson demo was amazing and seemed to bring back that sense of epic scale ME2 almost entirely lost. We got to see Kaidan and Ashley again, found out Garrus and Liara were returning as squaddies and that both Mordin and Wrex had decent roles to play, etc. But honestly... almost everything from the last few months has been utter garbage that just seems to confirm the pandering and that BioWare care more about branching out and bringing in new players than they do about satisfying those who came in on the ground floor.

[Vegos]

jreezy wrote...

Gatt9 wrote...
Funny enough, in another thread I said something along the lines of: "it's like people wanted BioWare to settle for mediocrity when it came to one of their most important gameplay elements, shooting." Post like Gatt's prove my point.


Your point was that Bioware should quit making RPGs and start focusing on making good Shooters?  Because E3 being almost completely shooters wasn't enough?

I'll check in with you next year and see if you still think making yet another shooter was such a great idea.

And of course, you miss my point. My point was exactly just that, "It's like people wanted BioWare to settle for mediocrity when it came to one of their most important elements, shooting". Regardless of what you want Mass Effect to be it obviously has elements of a third-person shooter. These elements were not all that good in the first Mass Effect and needed to be improved for the sequel. The sequel comes around and people throw hissy fits because now their precious Mass Effect has become a "Gears of War clone".

And what's so odd about that? It only means that there are people who are not happy with the direction the game is going now. Nothing says they are the same people who were complaining about the shooting aspect being bad in the first Mass Effect.

[Nohvarr]

Terror_K wrote...

Nohvarr wrote...

Perhaps BSN will become more reasonable and civil when we don't have as many people looking for a reason to be upset.

Yeah... like it's a big coincidence that this place started going downhill about the time ME2 started all that "it's as much a shooter as an RPG now" nonsense around E3.

Perhaps I wouldn't be getting upset all the time if BioWare actually released something good about Mass Effect 3, but it seems every new announcement is pandering, mainstream crap aimed at reeling in the mainstream shooter player. Kinect, wanking on the stupid omni-blade, Multiplayer, Cliffy B's endorsement, and how this crap... it's all pandering to the same audience and the type of stuff I'm sick of seeing BioWare do lately. It exemplifies completely what's wrong with the company at the moment, the marketing at the moment and the slippery slope they've been riding since about the time EA took over.

Things actually looked pretty damn good at the start with the Game Informer article and news of the RPG coming back, with the weapon-modding and skill branching. The Earth/Anderson demo was amazing and seemed to bring back that sense of epic scale ME2 almost entirely lost. We got to see Kaidan and Ashley again, found out Garrus and Liara were returning as squaddies and that both Mordin and Wrex had decent roles to play, etc. But honestly... almost everything from the last few months has been utter garbage that just seems to confirm the pandering and that BioWare care more about branching out and bringing in new players than they do about satisfying those who came in on the ground floor.

Case in point.

You admit that the FIRST THING they talked about was stuff you liked. However once they showed off some new things to attract people not like you, the rage began. Since you are the one that is on record on these forums as disliking and deriding mainstream fans, who are people paying customers just like you, it makes you seem less than fair.

[Vegos]

It's always amusing when people call each other out on deriding and disliking in a derisive and dislike-able way. It's almost as if there was a mirror between the two sides.