1467 réponses à ce sujet

[BatmanPWNS]

Gosh, RPG fans are the craziest (and most whiny) type of gamers I've seen in the last 10 years.

[Terror_K]

Nohvarr wrote...

Case in point.

You admit that the FIRST THING they talked about was stuff you liked. However once they showed off some new things to attract people not like you, the rage began. Since you are the one that is on record on these forums as disliking and deriding mainstream fans, who are people paying customers just like you, it makes you seem less than fair.

What's not fair is that a series once designed for sci-fi fans has to be watered down and "herp derped" to appeal to a group of people who are already well catered for as it is. This isn't just stuff that isn't aimed at me that I'm angry about: it's stuff I don't want to see in a game series that was originally aimed at me. Mass Effect appealed to me just as much because it wasn't this pandering mainstream bullcrap as it did because of what it was. I immersed myself and fell in love with the Mass Effect series not just because it was a fantastic, deep sci-fi experience that reminded me of the science fiction I loved and grew up with, but because it wasn't the same mainstream drivel as so much other stuff out there. Now it seems as if it's setting out to try and be more like the very stuff I hate in modern entertainment and less of the stuff I love. It's been retooled for their new target audience, and I detest that. It's gone from "Finally! A game series that fits my dreams and hopes!" to "No! It's become like all the other crap for all the mainstream idiots like everything else!"

Simply put: these factors aren't just ones I'm not interested in, their ones that I don't want at all, will detract from the experience for me and make me constantly wonder what could have been improved or given more depth had BioWare not squandered their efforts, time and resources on this garbage.

[ElitePinecone]

Terror_K wrote...

their efforts, time and resources on this garbage.

This would take an afternoon of programming at most - it's just altering existing systems. Please don't be so dramatic. 

[Nohvarr]

Terror_K wrote...

What's not fair is that a series once designed for sci-fi fans has to be watered down and "herp derped" to appeal to a group of people who are already well catered for as it is.

Wait, didn't you just say:

Things actually looked pretty damn good at the start with the Game Informer article and news of the RPG coming back, with the weapon-modding and skill branching. The Earth/Anderson demo was amazing and seemed to bring back that sense of epic scale ME2 almost entirely lost. We got to see Kaidan and Ashley again, found out Garrus and Liara were returning as squaddies and that both Mordin and Wrex had decent roles to play

So all of that is still there yet becaue they add in some other features, some of which are optional and will haveno impact on the above mentioned portions of the game, it waters your expierenc down.

This isn't just stuff that isn't aimed at me that I'm angry about: it's stuff I don't want to see in a game series that was originally aimed at me.

No, it wasn't aimed only at you, it first came out on the 360, and was designed to appeal to anyone who likes Action RPG games. Now they are making sure to reach out to a wider segment of the group. Like say people who enjoy the story but aren't good at the shooter aspect. So yeah you've never been Bioware's only focus, and that's why your voice dosen't carry the weight you think it should.

Simply put: these factors aren't just ones I'm not interested in, their ones that I don't want at all, will detract from the experience for me and make me constantly wonder what could have been improved or given more depth had BioWare not squandered their efforts, time and resources on this garbage.

Yup, you still hate the mainstream crowd because in your mind they've ruined your favorite past time. I was right during ME 2 when I called you out on this, and it's stll true today. It dosen't matter to you that most of these features are things you can ignore, and will have little to no impact on your game expierence. Their very existnce is proof that Bioware is not beholden to you alone, or the group of gamers you've approved. No company is really. That's why CD project Red has been working on an X-box release for the Witcher 2, which is not something their core PC audience care about. It's why Bioware ported ME 1 to PC and ME 2 to PS3.

So yeah, Bioware has given you much of what you want, but because they've provided for gamers you don't approve of, you're angry. I'd say that's not being fair or reasonable.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:41 .

[Darji]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Bluko wrote...
snip

So... you're complaining about an optional game mode available to other players which you'll never use?

That seems entirely sensible. 

Bioware clearly sees a point to it, or they wouldn't be doing it. 

If you don't like it, forget it exists. 

Pick the RPG mode and enjoy ME3 for what it is. 

Again the problem is that its clear that the team is focusing on the combat and its features rather than the story or the RPG stuff. Have you heard much aboiut this so far? I certainly havent. All I hear them talk about is the combat system over and over again.

@Video: Damn I totally forgot how bad the voiceacting in this game is... Especially if you just have played Uncharted 3

[Nohvarr]

Darji wrote...

Again the problem is that its clear that the team is focusing on the combat and its features rather than the story or the RPG stuff.

Bull, TK just admitted this game focuses more on RPG than th previous and the recent videos show more character interaction, and the consequence of past decisions (Wrex and Kirrahes presence).

[A Crusty Knight Of Colour]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Terror_K wrote...

their efforts, time and resources on this garbage.

This would take an afternoon of programming at most - it's just altering existing systems. Please don't be so dramatic.

Yeah, I'm not a huge fan of the concept but it's not like it's a significant drain on resources, it's changing global HP values and automatically choosing dialog choices. Basically, switches, triggers but nothing substantial. The majority of time BioWare would spend on it is testing to see whether it works as intended.

I am worried about what it means for branching storylines and the possibility for non-linear levels with varied approaches (Deus Ex games). It also suggests something about how BioWare looks at it's audience when it wants setting presets like this - one to make gameplay irrelevant and another to make dialog irrelevant.

But meh, Mass Effect 3 and the series as a whole are not really something I hold as dear as others. I'll probably play through it once or twice then play MP.

Modifié par mrcrusty, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:44 .

[Terror_K]

Nohvarr wrote...

So all of that is still there yet becaue they add in some other features, some of which are optional and will haveno impact on the above mentioned portions of the game, it waters your expierenc down.

All the stuff from the original Star Wars Trilogy that's still in the DVD and Blu-Ray editions is still there too, but that doesn't avoid the fact that they're contimanated with the retooled prequel crap and are almost impossible to enjoy because of it. It's the same thing. ME2 was riddled with constant issues and mechanics that made it impossible to immerse myself for much more than a few minutes, most of which were related to their "branching out" and "mainstreamlining" and "making more accessible" etc.

No, it wasn't aimed only at you, it first came out on the 360, and was designed to appeal to anyone who likes Action RPG games. Now they are making sure to reach out to a wider segment of the group. Like say people who enjoy the story but aren't good at the shooter aspect. So yeah you've never been Bioware's only focus, and that's why your voice dosen't carry the weight you think it should.

And yet the original game didn't feel like it. It never felt mainstreamed or dumbed-down to me. It felt like it was aimed at a child of the 80's who grew up loving Alien, Blade Runner, the early Star Trek movies, Babylon 5 etc. Now it feels more like it's aimed at a fanbase who weren't even alive in the 80's and prefer Michael Bay'sploshuns and think Cliffy B is God's gift to gaming.

Yup, you still hate the mainstream crowd because in your mind they've ruined your favorite past time. I was right during ME 2 when I called you out on this, and it's stll true today. It dosen't matter to you that most of these features are things you can ignore, and will have little to no impact on your game expierence. Their very existnce is proof that Bioware is not beholden to you alone, or the group of gamers you've approved. No company is really. That's why CD project Red has been working on an X-box release for the Witcher 2, which is not something their core PC audience care about. It's why Bioware ported ME 1 to PC and ME 2 to PS3.

So yeah, Bioware has given you much of what you want, but because they've provided for gamers you don't approve of, you're angry. I'd say that's not being fair or reasonable.

Again, the issues I had with ME2 did have an impact on my game experience... that's WHY I had issues with them! Why is ME3 going to be so different? And how do I really know it's not going to have an impact on my game? If ME3 comes out without a vehicle and decent exploration and bombards me with emails again, while all my choices from the previous two games feel cosmetic at best as they're either weak substitutions, glossed over or treated as if they are nowhere near as impactful as one would be led to believe, should I honestly just shrug at the crap they've added I neither wanted nor cared about? Especially when I feel it doesn't suit the game?

[whywhywhywhy]

javierabegazo wrote...

The hard thing in life is to accept that something that is wonderful and worth the time for you, isn't the same thing for someone else.

I disagree.  It's only hard for some.

[ElitePinecone]

Darji wrote...
Have you heard much aboiut this so far? I certainly havent. All I hear them talk about is the combat system over and over again.

That's marketing. It's a completely separate issue. 

Since I assume you haven't played the demo...

The intro is a ten minute cutscene and conversation with Anderson, the VS, James Vega and the Alliance Defence Board. 

The intro to Sur'Kesh features a mini-hub where you can talk to Wrex about the krogan prospects of alliance with the turians, you can talk to Major Kirrahe about Virmire and his role in the salarian STG, and you can talk to a salarian scientist about Sur'Kesh, the krogan female and the war with the Reapers. 

Ambient dialogue on Sur'Kesh features updates about the war in other places, including the turian homeworld. 

A dynamic conversation on the shuttle while traveling to Sur'Kesh features a four-way dialogue with Wrex, Liara, Garrus and Shepard. Wrex has unique dialogue for both those squadmates, and there's banter between all three characters. 

That's in probably an hour of beta footage, that isn't even complete. 

I'm as annoyed as you are that the marketing is focusing only on combat. But that's business. 

By the looks of things ME3 has just as much story, dialogue, characterisation and decision-making as its predecessor. Probably even more. 

[Nohvarr]

Terror_K wrote...

All the stuff from the original Star Wars Trilogy that's still in the DVD and Blu-Ray editions is still there too, but that doesn't avoid the fact that they're contimanated with the retooled prequel crap and are almost impossible to enjoy because of it.

That sounds like a personal problem to me. I for one have no problem enjoying the original trilogy just because of something made later.

And yet the original game didn't feel like it. It never felt mainstreamed or dumbed-down to me. It felt like it was aimed at a child of the 80's who grew up loving Alien, Blade Runner, the early Star Trek movies, Babylon 5 etc. Now it feels more like it's aimed at a fanbase who weren't even alive in the 80's and prefer Michael Bay'sploshuns and think Cliffy B is God's gift to gaming.

Then you got lucky it fit your desire. However pleasing your tastes alone was never the goal.

Again, the issues I had with ME2 did have an impact on my game experience... that's WHY I had issues with them! Why is ME3 going to be so different? And how do I really know it's not going to have an impact on my game? If ME3 comes out without a vehicle and decent exploration and bombards me with emails again, while all my choices from the previous two games feel cosmetic at best as they're either weak substitutions, glossed over or treated as if they are nowhere near as impactful as one would be led to believe, should I honestly just shrug at the crap they've added I neither wanted nor cared about? Especially when I feel it doesn't suit the game?

Ah but we've already seen that ME 1 decisions affect the game since Wrex and te good Captain Kirrahe have show up. Yo've also admitted you like the RPG features they've brought back. Your bone of contention has to do with features you are likely never to use and will have little to no impact on the game.

I'm not surprised, as I said before you had the same attitude during ME 2 run up, deriding anything that felt mainstream to you. Now Bioware has pu in a lot of stuff you want, but because some of the optional content feels mainstream to you, you get angry and post about how they're trying to get rid of you.

Not reasonable at all.

[Darji]

ElitePinecone wrote...

Darji wrote...
Have you heard much aboiut this so far? I certainly havent. All I hear them talk about is the combat system over and over again.

That's marketing. It's a completely separate issue. 

Since I assume you haven't played the demo...

The intro is a ten minute cutscene and conversation with Anderson, the VS, James Vega and the Alliance Defence Board. 

The intro to Sur'Kesh features a mini-hub where you can talk to Wrex about the krogan prospects of alliance with the turians, you can talk to Major Kirrahe about Virmire and his role in the salarian STG, and you can talk to a salarian scientist about Sur'Kesh, the krogan female and the war with the Reapers. 

Ambient dialogue on Sur'Kesh features updates about the war in other places, including the turian homeworld. 

A dynamic conversation on the shuttle while traveling to Sur'Kesh features a four-way dialogue with Wrex, Liara, Garrus and Shepard. Wrex has unique dialogue for both those squadmates, and there's banter between all three characters. 

That's in probably an hour of beta footage, that isn't even complete. 

I'm as annoyed as you are that the marketing is focusing only on combat. But that's business. 

By the looks of things ME3 has just as much story, dialogue, characterisation and decision-making as its predecessor. Probably even more. 

No I havent played the leaked demo because I have no 360. But I have seen the youtube footage and I know what the demo is all about.  I am also aware that you cant show this stuff in a e3 demo. I am just stating the thing how I see them considering the leak, the interviews and the reccent history of Bioware and EA.

And honestly the amount of story, dialogue and decision makin in ME2 was very weak und almost unimportant for the game.. They also need to get rid of this Good answer, bad answer and sarcastic answer system.

I dont even want to start with the lame characters like Vega or the new miranda like look from Ashely.

@the Wrex Thing. I  am pretty sure I remmeber some from bioware saying that Wrex will be in the gamer even if he dies in Mass effect. So your choices didnt really matter in the end at all.

Modifié par Darji, 06 novembre 2011 - 12:27 .

[ElitePinecone]

... okay, you'll clearly never be satisfied with ME3.

Bioware don't have the resources to make *every* decision hugely impactful. Nobody does. It's not possible, not with budgets of games as they are. They have to make decisions somewhere.

*Within* a game, sure, but not between them. Not when there are dozens if not hundreds of import flags and variations on decisions. Catering to every variation in a meaningful way is literally impossible. The budget and time spent would be crazy.

You must be reasonable about what Bioware can actually accomplish, and hold them to that instead of an impossible standard.

If you seriously feel the need to complain about every single change in ME3 that you don't like, you'll never be happy with the game.

Hate it or admire it for what it is, play it or don't play it come March - I don't really mind either way. But until then, filling up this thread with pages of every single complaint you have about it seems like an extraordinary waste of time and effort.

[Darji]

ElitePinecone wrote...

... okay, you'll clearly never be satisfied with ME3.

Bioware don't have the resources to make *every* decision hugely impactful. Nobody does. It's not possible, not with budgets of games as they are. They have to make decisions somewhere.

*Within* a game, sure, but not between them. Not when there are dozens if not hundreds of import flags and variations on decisions. Catering to every variation in a meaningful way is literally impossible. The budget and time spent would be crazy.

You must be reasonable about what Bioware can actually accomplish, and hold them to that instead of an impossible standard.

If you seriously feel the need to complain about every single change in ME3 that you don't like, you'll never be happy with the game.

Hate it or admire it for what it is, play it or don't play it come March - I don't really mind either way. But until then, filling up this thread with pages of every single complaint you have about it seems like an extraordinary waste of time and effort.

The problem with the descisions in ME2 especially is that they did not even matter in ME2. There was no decision you made in ME2 that later had an impact of the outcome or the story. All you had to do was to complete all companion quests and then upgrade your ship if you have done that and chosed the right members for each task which wasnt  difficult at all if you at least played one class based RPG than no one will die.

And no I dont even expect that all the stuff you descided in 1 and 2 will have an impact in 3. But at least have the major descions have some sort of impact and not like they did with 1 and 2 where it only resulted in a camea apperance.

[Il Divo]

Vegos wrote...

Burgers and fries in a gorument resuarant don't make them suddenly stop serving the other stuff either.

Oh wait....

It's you.

Forget I said anything.

That's exactly what I would argue. They don't make them stop serving other stuff. And in the case of the action mode, the analogy  works even less since this feature is alot less intrusive than watching someone eat a hamburger in a gourmet restaurant. Your association with action mode begins and ends with turning it on or off in the options menu. Is that really so bad that it's going to impact the rest of your gaming experience?

[Il Divo]

Gatt9 wrote...

Alot of people live alternative lifestyles,  by virtue of your arguement,  Peter Jackson should have had an alternate cut of Lord of the Rings where Aragorn was madly in love with Frodo and not Arwen right?  Harry Potter should have had alternate books and movies where he went to a Catholic school and not a Wizardry school,  because there's alot of Catholics who think witches are evil,  right? 

Probably one of the worse analogies I've seen made on these forum. Regardless, it's still a valid argument. Even if you think the alternative cut is completely stupid, you don't have to watch it and your own version remains. Of course, in that case where the premise of the alternative cut is notoriously bad, but there is nothing to stop a gamer from wanting to experience the Mass Effect gameplay more than other aspects, including the story.

[mishaxhi]

Undoubtedly the worst idea I've ever heard for a video game ever. Words cannot describe how much this has totally thrown me off buying the game.

[ElitePinecone]

mishaxhi wrote...

Undoubtedly the worst idea I've ever heard for a video game ever. Words cannot describe how much this has totally thrown me off buying the game.

Your remarkably understated reaction is noted. Care to elaborate on why optional modes for other people that you'll never use affect your experience? 

[Xeranx]

I'm going to make my observation again (and apparently Slimgrin said the same earlier) and add a point for people to actually voice what they don't wish to see.

These "modes", if left in, look like something that will be tracked by metrics. I personally hate the idea of metrics driving development, but then again it's roughly similar to having people fill out a survey and sending it in. However, the difference between the two is that the survey gives development companies ideas on what to do for their next title. They put in what they think people want and because they'd largely be in the dark (not that many people turn in surveys), they'd have to put in the stuff THEY feel is good for the game.

The metrics, though, give them feedback from millions of people on what they should do next. People are fickle creatures despite how many dislike change. What they may like this second, they may abhor the next. Using metrics you'll be behind the wants and wishes of consumers more often than not. So what happens is you tend to show up late to the party and then it becomes a method of chasing after money...whatever nickels, dimes, and pennies are left for you to gather before you ask yourself what to do next because your last project didn't do what you thought it would. What leads me to believe this is people voicing how inundated with shooters the market is.

Then again, that's my opinion. cue poster commending me for stating that it's my opinion on a message board without sources

So people should play their modes, but tell Bioware (or companies that are changing direction) that regardless of what the metrics tell them, their consumers don't want them going down a path of automated responses. Or that companies don't forget their bread and butter in their pursuit of making games that go down new paths for their companies.

I think DA2, while I didn't mind the story, taught Bioware a lesson: there's still a market for RPGs like DA:O or Baldur's Gate (I never played the earlier stuff) and they shouldn't abandon it.

For me, if you start out something (this in regards to the Mass Effect series), don't change how things work in the middle of a series. It creates a kind of culture shock as it did for some. Tweak what you have because you had a vision for the series before and people who took up your project based on that vision would like to see it go to its conclusion. It'd be like tuning in to watch Firefly and end up with Star Trek. Both are good, but there's no peanut butter in chocolate here.

[ElitePinecone]

^ You're absolutely right about the metrics - and I'd be the first to freak out if Bioware ever wanted to water down their commitment to dialogue choices in games. I think Bioware knows the depth of feeling among their fans. If nothing else DA2 showed that they the fanbase reacts angrily when change goes too far.

But don't forget that these modes just set initial options that can be changed by the player - and frankly, I can't think of many people who would willingly forgo the sort of dialogue branches Mass Effect has, just for linear gameplay.

Far more useful telemetry data than "who picked Action" is "who picked Action then changed the conversation mode to manual".

Maybe I'm just not jaded or bitter enough, but I can't envisage anybody who knows about Mass Effect's branching dialogue and ability to make decisions willingly choosing to have this stripped away.

So while Action might be a nice option, as long as Bioware advertises the other two modes appropriately and reminds all players of the branching dialogue, I don't think the metrics will be a problem. I'd suggest that when people find out about branching decisions and the story - if they didn't know already - they'll change the dialogue option and having picked 'Action' won't have meant a thing.

Regardless, I don't think it's wise to be freaking out over a mode we don't know anything about. For all we know, the automatic dialogue has Paragon and Renegade options, or only automates non-essential dialogue like in the middle of cutscenes.

[Alex_SM]

I don't think Bioware nowadays has much to say about their own games. It's all EA.

And It's most likely that everything has been linearized, so the guys who play in Action Mode (mostly newcomers) get the FULL experience no matter what. 

Modifié par Alex_SM, 06 novembre 2011 - 02:36 .

[DragonRageGT]

Darji wrote...
I dont even want to start with the lame characters like Vega or the new miranda like look from Ashely.

@the Wrex Thing. I  am pretty sure I remmeber some from bioware saying that Wrex will be in the gamer even if he dies in Mass effect. So your choices didnt really matter in the end at all.

I must say that if that is the Ashley Williams we'll be seeing in the game, I'm damn glad I let her die in Virmire most every time! Those retards who think it is a good idea to change the faces of characters, like they did in DA2, should be thrown in the Pit with my Urz!

Every time I watch Dark Knight after watching Batman Begins, I wonder who the heck is that girl, when Maggie Gyllenhaal first appears, because it should be Katie Holmes. But that happens in movies sometimes. Now, in a video game? What? Did the virtual actress refuse to play the role in ME3? That's so stupid!


And I hope you're wrong about Wrex. If he died, he must stay dead!

[didymos1120]

Ashley's face hasn't changed. Unless you consider a new haircut the equivalent to drastic facial reconstructive surgery.

[didymos1120]

Alex_SM wrote...

And It's most likely that everything has been linearized, so the guys who play in Action Mode (mostly newcomers) get the FULL experience no matter what. 

If that were true, then there'd be no point in making the distinction in the first place.