113 réponses à ce sujet

[Inprea]

If I'm not mistaken a Grand Cleric has a great deal of authority and that includes authority over the templars. Whether they choose to exercise it or not or if the knight commander follows those instructions is a bit up in the air I suppose. Yet I believe if the knight commander refused to follow their guidlines they could request a new commander or ask for a seeker to be sent so I believe it's safe to say Elthina had a good deal of authority that she didn't use.

Now here is my main point.  Whenever you're the head an organization you're responsible for the actions of the members of that organization. If there is some kind of abuse going on it is your duty to correct whatever failure in the system allowed those absuses. So if you're a general and you find out a small group of soldiers decided to rape some young girl then I consider you at least in part responsible for that rape.

So now let's look at Elthina's track record. The first one that comes to mind is Alrik. Alrik suggest that they make all mages in the circle and in the free marches tranquil and pushes for it to be done quite hard. He even sends a letter to the divine herself. Clearly he's dangerous to the mages and while they reject his idea they leave him in charge of the mages. She leaves this man who would like to make every mage tranquil and clearly views them as sub human in a position of power over them. That right there strikes me as a tremendous failing on Elthina's part as he's clearly shown his character. While her responsibility for his actions before recieving that letter might be arguable the burden she bares after learning his intent is far heavier.

Another event I can think of is the conversation in the square when Meredith and the first enchanter was fighting. "Orsino is not an unreasonable man." Now she said Orsino was but made no mention of Meredith. To me this reads she expects the mages to make all the compromisses. That or she recognizes that Meredith has become unreasonable yet she does nothing to bring Meredith in line despite her position.

There is of course the line, "I would not wish to be locked in the gallows but I can't take sides." From this conversation it seems to me she realized the mages were being abused in the gallows and yet she did nothing but wait. She didn't write to the divine asking for Meredith to be removed or a seeker to be sent she simply decided to wait. I would have loved it if Hawke could have asked, "So how many people have to die while you wait for the maker to resolve this problem for you? Hey how well did waiting for the qunari situation to be resolved work out for you?"

I could probably come up with a few more things but I believe this is enough to show that Elthina knew of the abuse the mages were suffering or should have known. Despite this though she chose to do nothing and just wait to see if things worked out. As a person with authority however and a close connection to the templars I believe this makes her responsible for what happened to the mages at least in part. I would also say that she is responsible for the actions Patrice took at least in part as it was her failure as a leader that allowed Patrice to take such steps.

Due to this I don't believe her death was entirely undeserved. That's my opinion though. So I want to ask.

How much responsibility for what happened do you think Elthina carries based on her position and knowledge? Do you believe that her neglegence was great enough to be considered a crime? Finally if you believe she did commit a crime through her failings what punishment do you believe it deserved?

[Vit246]

Elthina is the Grand Cleric of Kirkwall, therefore she holds supreme power / authority / responsibility over the Templars in Kirkwall. She is Meredith's superior and Meredith and the Templars ultimately answer to her as subordinates. Elthina is also responsible for the Kirkwall Circle since the Chantry controls it with its Templar military branch.

Over the years, many of the Templars have been practically abusing, raping, and torturing (physically and psychologically) mages. Harrowed mages are Tranquiled even though the act violates Chantry law which specifically forbids that. If Elthina honestly knew nothing about them then that makes her incompetent as Grand Cleric. If she does know (and she does) then that makes her an accomplice to those crimes since she chooses to do nothing, not reprimand or punish, but pray that the Maker sorts it out, even though her own religion states that the Maker is gone from the world.

Look at Alrik. Elthina already knew that this Templar was calling for all Circle mages to be tranquiled . She rejects it, but she does absolutely nothing else about the man. She allows this dangerous man to keep his position and continue doing whatever he does, like Tranquiling young mages and raping them, like with Ella and that Tranquiled female walking back and forth in the Gallows. Elthina keeps claiming to care about the mages but when Hawke presents Alrik's papers, she is more concerned about how Alrik is killed rather than his proposal.

Elthina's failing is her passivity, indecisiveness and incompetence. She is Grand Cleric and yet she does not want to do anything with the position at all. She knows of Meredith's methods and how the Circle mages are faring under them, but she chooses to do nothing. She does not order Meredith to change, relocate her or appoint a new Knight-Commander. She just prays for the Maker to do her job. We know Elthina has authority over Meredith since she appointed Meredith in the first place and can order her to return to the Gallows "like a good girl". If Elthina actually used her authority to seriously affect Meredith, than Meredith would be bound to obey as her subordinate.

Yes, it is possible that Meredith may refuse to obey, but seriously, that would be a political suicide. She alone may disobey, but how many other lower templars would actually support and follow her in that decision? I seriously that the lower ranking templars would also disobey the Grand Cleric.

The least Elthina deserves is to be fired from the powerful position of Grand Cleric. Her death is honestly not surprising. After all, she is not "neutral" or "innocent" in the matter. She is a Grand Cleric of the Chantry and the Chantry possesses and controls a military arm in the form of the Templars. The very nature of her position does not allow her to be "neutral".

[Snarkoleptic]

Vit246 wrote...


The least Elthina deserves is to be fired from the powerful position of Grand Cleric. Her death is honestly not surprising. After all, she is not "neutral" or "innocent" in the matter. She is a Grand Cleric of the Chantry and the Chantry possesses and controls a military arm in the form of the Templars. The very nature of her position does not allow her to be "neutral".

Agreed.  If I'd had the patience to read through dozens of pages on the last "zomg why the chantry and not the home of the templars" post, this is pretty much word for word what I would have said.  Meredith may be off her nut, but a) the ultimate authority over the templars and Circle mandates is the Grand Cleric, and  why blow up the Gallows and take out all the mages you're trying to free when the point is their freedom?

On the original topic, I agree that responsibility for abuses within the templar ranks goes all the way to the top.  Nothing in the game ever indicates that any corrective action is taken for beatings and rapes and other abuses, which really does paint Elthina as a hand-wringer who hopes it'll all blow over if she pretends hard enough that there isn't a problem.

[esper]

I personally believe that elthina was criminal neglect.
And op forgot to add allowing Meridith to size the vicount throne to which she had no right.

[Wulfram]

Vit246 wrote...

Yes, it is possible that Meredith may refuse to obey, but seriously, that would be a political suicide. She alone may disobey, but how many other lower templars would actually support and follow her in that decision? I seriously that the lower ranking templars would also disobey the Grand Cleric.

3 years later we know that the Templars rebelled against the Chantry.

[AlexXIV]

It may be a structural weakness of the Chantry-templar institution that the templars could disobey or maybe ignore Chantry orders. My problem is that the chantry sisters etc. always use big words to scold and warn everyone from breaking chantry law etc. if they don't have the power to back it up. Honestly, without any real power they only have an absent god to back them. Not much if you asked me.

Not sure how powerful Elthina was exactly or if she was just an old woman who could speak words of wisdom without real ability to force or convince anyone. However, whether she was just not acting or unable to act isn't a difference because in either case she is a fake. Because people look up to the position of Grand Cleric as one of authority. And if this authority doesn't really exist then it is basically a ruse.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 novembre 2011 - 02:43 .

[Inprea]

From the start it seems many believe Elthina has a lot of responsibility for what happened due to her position. I remember first being outraged with what Anders had done but the more I thought about it the more my mind slipped in the direction that Elthina really didn't deserve any sympathy. Did anyone else want to tell her that if she wants to really show that she cares for the mages how about she goes and lives with them in the gallows. It's one thing to talk to the talk after all but I never saw her walk the walk.

[ReallyRue]

Inprea wrote...
Due to this I don't believe her death was entirely undeserved. That's my opinion though. So I want to ask.

Though there's a huge difference between assassinating Elthina and blowing up a Chantry with a bunch of people inside/sparking a war/getting the Circle annulled, etc etc. And why kill Elthina but not Meredith?

Otherwise, I agree with your post. Elthina had a lot of authority that she could have used to stop Meredith or remove her from power. The whole thing with Sister Nightingale - surely she should have come with Hawke and Sebastian (the hand of the Divine is surely going to listen more to the words of a Grand Cleric than the Champion - who is unrelated to the Chantry and may be actively supporting mages/one themself - and a random Chantry brother/ex-prince). She could have explained to Leliana that Meredith was unstable and needed to be replaced, even if she couldn't directly affect Meredith's position of de-facto Viscount.

And she surely could have had Alrik removed from the templar order, or at least reassigned or something. When Cullen is traumatised in DAO, he's reassigned away from the Circle and to a peaceful Chantry, so I don't get why she'd leave Alrik as he is. She says over and over that she wants to be there for Kirkwall, yet she doesn't seem to do anything other than just be there. And surely she should know more about what goes on in the Circle, and the abuses that happen. If she does know, she doesn't do anything about it. And if she doesn't know, it means she doesn't do her job very thoroughly.

Modifié par ReallyRue, 05 novembre 2011 - 04:08 .

[Heimdall]

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

I personally believe that elthina was criminal neglect.
And op forgot to add allowing Meridith to size the vicount throne to which she had no right.

Considering that Hawke can bring to Elthina's attention that members of her organization are using her name to incite violence against the Qunari, and she decides to do nothing about it, I feel the same way.

[Inprea]

Lord Aesir wrote...

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

I can't agree with not blaiming her. She's in a position of authority and authority comes with responsibility or you end up with very poor leaders. If she couldn't come to a decision on how to handle the situation in three years then she should have been wise enough to step aside and let someone who's competent take up the position.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

I can't agree with not blaiming her. She's in a position of authority and authority comes with responsibility or you end up with very poor leaders. If she couldn't come to a decision on how to handle the situation in three years then she should have been wise enough to step aside and let someone who's competent take up the position.

The problem with Alrik wasn't just in the extremeness of his proposal. It's that, given how Templars have near-limitless power over mages, the proposal, rejected or not, is definitely something Alrik could drum up support for, and implement at a local level. I think it's because we, the players, have a lesser trust of authority figures than the characters in the game do. I don't think Elthina, upon rejecting the proposal, considered that a Templar, a holy knight of the faith, would disobey orders like Alrik had, to the detriment of the innocent mages tranquiled by him.

[AlexXIV]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

I can't agree with not blaiming her. She's in a position of authority and authority comes with responsibility or you end up with very poor leaders. If she couldn't come to a decision on how to handle the situation in three years then she should have been wise enough to step aside and let someone who's competent take up the position.

The problem with Alrik wasn't just in the extremeness of his proposal. It's that, given how Templars have near-limitless power over mages, the proposal, rejected or not, is definitely something Alrik could drum up support for, and implement at a local level. I think it's because we, the players, have a lesser trust of authority figures than the characters in the game do. I don't think Elthina, upon rejecting the proposal, considered that a Templar, a holy knight of the faith, would disobey orders like Alrik had, to the detriment of the innocent mages tranquiled by him.

You know, most people don't have anything against old senile nice ladies. The point is simply she had responsiblitly. If she wasn't up to the task she should have stepped down. As there is nothing wrong with being old or senile, still clinging to a position of power and dooming hundrets if not thousands of people to death or 'a fate worse than death', is still as bad as it could be. For that she deserved what was comming to her.

Modifié par AlexXIV, 05 novembre 2011 - 07:31 .

[Heimdall]

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

I can't agree with not blaiming her. She's in a position of authority and authority comes with responsibility or you end up with very poor leaders. If she couldn't come to a decision on how to handle the situation in three years then she should have been wise enough to step aside and let someone who's competent take up the position.

I Thing is, it always seemed to me that primary duty of the Grand cleric was to be the spiritual guide of the people rather than an administrator.  She fulfills that responsability and is well liked in Kirkwall.  It is not so simple to replace such a well liked Grand Cleric.  Elthina does try to keep Meredith and Orsino away from each other's throats.  One must also consider what her responsibilities are.  The Grand Cleric's mission is not to fight for mage rights.  At most, it is her mission to keep Meredith from going too far.  And she did that at least in part in keeping the rite of annulment from her.  As far as I saw, nobody knew how to handle the situation.  As for Alrik, I still don't see how she can be blamed unless you believe people should be demoted for their political stances.

Should she have done more?  Perhaps, but it is still not her responsibility to protect mages from Templar abuses.  She could have ordered the rite at any time if she thought Meredith was right.  She clearly didn't, neither did she think harsh measures were entirely unmeritted given the increase in blood mage activity.  She just wanted to keep the two from tearing each other apart.  If it means anything, I think that without Ander's interference the compromises would have gone on and eventually even Elthina would have been forced to dismiss Meredith.  Ending the compromises was part of Ander's whole rational for blowing up the Chantry.  He wanted everyone to take a side, and she refused to.

[Urzon]

I have nothing against nice senile old ladies. They give you milk and cookies (and nice hard candies, like peppermints!), and a pat you the head and tell you, "what a good boy/girl you are."

I just don't like it when there are backhandedly in control of the government in the area...

[Estelindis]

Personally, I found Elthina saintly - not perfect, certainly, but not deserving her fate in any way. The level of negative feeling against her here on the boards astonishes me.

[General User]

ReallyRue wrote...
Though there's a huge difference between assassinating Elthina and blowing up a Chantry with a bunch of people inside/sparking a war/getting the Circle annulled, etc etc. And why kill Elthina but not Meredith?

Meredith has better security.

Modifié par General User, 05 novembre 2011 - 08:45 .

[Inprea]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

I can't agree with not blaiming her. She's in a position of authority and authority comes with responsibility or you end up with very poor leaders. If she couldn't come to a decision on how to handle the situation in three years then she should have been wise enough to step aside and let someone who's competent take up the position.

I Thing is, it always seemed to me that primary duty of the Grand cleric was to be the spiritual guide of the people rather than an administrator.  She fulfills that responsability and is well liked in Kirkwall.  It is not so simple to replace such a well liked Grand Cleric.  Elthina does try to keep Meredith and Orsino away from each other's throats.  One must also consider what her responsibilities are.  The Grand Cleric's mission is not to fight for mage rights.  At most, it is her mission to keep Meredith from going too far.  And she did that at least in part in keeping the rite of annulment from her.  As far as I saw, nobody knew how to handle the situation.  As for Alrik, I still don't see how she can be blamed unless you believe people should be demoted for their political stances.

Should she have done more?  Perhaps, but it is still not her responsibility to protect mages from Templar abuses.  She could have ordered the rite at any time if she thought Meredith was right.  She clearly didn't, neither did she think harsh measures were entirely unmeritted given the increase in blood mage activity.  She just wanted to keep the two from tearing each other apart.  If it means anything, I think that without Ander's interference the compromises would have gone on and eventually even Elthina would have been forced to dismiss Meredith.  Ending the compromises was part of Ander's whole rational for blowing up the Chantry.  He wanted everyone to take a side, and she refused to.

The Grand Cleric has authority over the templars. As the templars are a military arm of the chantry and you don't get much higher in the chantery then grand cleric. So it is far more then just an advisor. I strongly disagree with the notion that she stopped Meredith from going too far especially whenever she let her take over the viscounts position whenever templars aren't suppose to command worldly power.

I also disagree with the notion that she wasn't suppose to protect the mages from templar abuse. She most assuredly was. As the head of an organization or a person in a position of authority you are responsible for everything your subordinates do. That's one of the prices of authority. She didn't take that responsibility though and chose to wait around and trust that the maker would fix all the problems for her.

As for Alrik. Alrik revealed his true nature with the tranquil solution and the letters he sent to the divine and grand cleric. So she knew that he was a danger to the mages and she also knew that he was in a position of power over the mages yet she did nothing to remove him from that position even through as grand cleric she most assuredly has the authority. The fact that she didn't means that yes she is responsible for his actions as she is his superior and she knew of his mentality.

You don't leave a dangerous person in a position of power or would you leave a pedofile in charge of a kindergarden? As that's pretty much what was done with Alrik.

Modifié par Inprea, 05 novembre 2011 - 08:39 .

[Inprea]

Estelindis wrote...

Personally, I found Elthina saintly - not perfect, certainly, but not deserving her fate in any way. The level of negative feeling against her here on the boards astonishes me.

Power comes with responsibility and it seems many feels she failed in her duties as grand cleric. You don't get to be a major player in a powerful organization and avoid the responsibility for that organization. At least you're not suppose to.

Modifié par Inprea, 05 novembre 2011 - 08:38 .

[Gervaise]

Okay I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

First and foremost if the intention is to remove the Grand Cleric because she is incompentent, then you assassinate her, not blow her up and everyone else in the building with her, innocent and guilty, clergy and lay people, widows and orphans.  

Anders did not blow up Elthina because she was incompetent (even though he does call her a doddering old biddy), he blows her up because he wanted to remove the possibility for compromise.  This suggests that Elthina was all that was holding back all hell breaking loose and that the Chantry as an institution is also the compromise between total mage freedom and templars eradicating them on sight.

The Gallows is removed from the main city and is under the control of the Templars.  Whilst Elthina may nominally have control, in reality she relies upon the information supplied to her by the Knight Commander and her immediate subordinates, like Cullen.   If I was Elthina I would naturally assume that these two individuals had control over their troops and would deal with any illegalities that occurred.   I would also assume that Orsino would also make me aware of anything disturbing that was occurring.   Strangely enough, when Orsino is making his case to the populace and when he talks to Hawke, he makes no mention of the rape, forcible tranquility and other abuses.  Nor for that matter does Thrask do anything.   If Hawke had been asked to take the issue of abuses to Elthina or the writers had allowed Hawke to raise the matter of illegal rites of tranquility, and Elthina had ignored this and done nothing, then you could acuse her of failing in her responsibilities.  However, you cannot assume that she is fully aware of everything that goes on in the Gallows.  (Bear in mind the President of the United States is head of the armed forces and responsible for their actions but prisoners in Iraq were abused - by your reasoning the President should be blown up)
.
During Act 3, Sebastian asks Averline how she views the situation, since Elthina is worried that Meredith is no longer taking her advice.  Averline's response, as Captain of the Guard, is that they should continue to support Meredith.  Thus Elthina will not have the support of the civil authorities if she tries to remove Meredith from power.

If you talk to Cullen and ask who he thinks Elthina will support, his response is that she has no choice but to support the Templars because they hold their position of the mages by "Divine Right".  He also says at the end to Meredith, that when people started to whisper against her, he defended her.  It is therefore patently obvious that if Elthina had gone to Cullen, as Meredith's second in command, and asked him to remove her from office, he would like as not have refused.
It is also obvious that he does not support her view that "both sides have valid arguments."

According the Ser Keras (if still alive) Meredith has applied to the Divine for permission to enact the Right of Anulment in Kirkwall, effectively going behind Elthina's back.  That the Divine is taking the situation seriously may be determined from the fact that she considers making an Exalted March on the City and warns Elthina to get out.  Elthina refuses to do so and asks Hawke to try and persaude Sister Nightingale to tell the Divine to back off because she is trying to save innocent lives.  Clearly her word alone is not considered sufficient by the Divine otherwise she would not ask Hawke to intervene.  One might also ask why Hawke doesn't point out to Sister Nightingale all the abuses that have occurred in the Circle when they have the opportunity.

If, after distracting Elthina, you go back a last time before going to the Gallows, she says "I hope you haven't come to try and get me to leave again.  I will not leave my people to bear the price of war beween the Templars and Malificarum."   She has recognised that it has moved beyond simply Meredith against Orsino.   She knows her life is in danger, whether from the Resolutionists or her own "side" but she stays put to prevent the possibility of an Exalted March by the Divine and also I would think to try and protect the Circle mages.   Orsino would not have been trying to approach Elthina if he thought she would not help.   Neither would Meredith try and prevent him.

Elthina was as much a victim of the system as the Circle mages were.  Her only "crime" was that she was trying to follow a pattern of behaviour that had allegedly served well enough for the previous 1,000 years and was not politically savvy enough to keep pace with events.   Bear in mind, the codex said that the was probably the most popular Grand Cleric ever in the Freemarches and this was probably due to the fact that, as Sebastian claimed, she tried to be a mother to those in her care, which was not just the people in the Chantry but the wider population.

Anders did not blow Elthina up because of anything she had or had not done - he blew her up because he did not see her as an individual, a person, just a symbol.   He blew her up because he didn't care who he killed so long as he achieved his aims and that included the Circle Mages and for that matter Hawke.

Bombing a civilian target is never justified, it is not Justice.  

[dragonflight288]

One thing about Elthina I think needs mentioning was that she was brought into the Chantry as a young girl. She grew up in the priesthood knowing nothing else. When she was made Grand Cleric, she was (and still is) the most popular clergy in the Free Marches.

And there were many people who felt Meredith had the moral high ground, remember her as the one who removed the tyrant before Dumar...they could have shown that better instead of just Meredith's codex entry, but that was a factor.

Because Elthina was in the Chantry her whole life, serving as a spiritual servant and not an administrator or dictator commanding the army, I felt she was ill equipped to to handle the mage and templar tension. Was she evil? I don't think so. Was she incompetent? Certainly on that aspect of the job description, not necessarily the rest of her job. She is still incredibly popular among the people.

[Lazy Jer]

Well, first I wouldn't really blame Elthina for Alric.  Alric was a templar, and thus more directly Knight-Commander Meredeth's responsibility.  Meredeth, even in her loopy state of mind, is the one who should have done something about Alric first off all because she was her direct supervisor, secondly because she was in more a possition to see Alric's actual personality and how corrupt he was.  Elthina just read a letter from him and it's a slippery slope when you fire someone for speaking their opinions.  Acting on those opinions without authority is another thing.

I do agree, though, that Elthina holds a lot of responsibility for the problems in Kirkwall.  She was the only one who Knight-Commander Meredeth would conceiveably have listened to, and if she defied her orders to step down and/or back off the mages a bit, then there would have been earlier justification for removing her from office and appointing someone more reasonable.  But she didn't.  She held true to her philosophy that the Chantry was a kind and gentle mother, rather then a disciplinarian father.  Not realizing that even a kind and gentle mother must take her children firmly in hand when they're doing something wrong.

Really, when you think about it, taking ANY side in the Orsino/Meredeth conflict could have prevented a lot of violence and heart-break later on.

[General User]

I'm not really sure the Grand Cleric has any direct authority over the Templars or the Knight Commander. Just being the senior member of the Chantry hierarchy in Kirkwall doesn't mean she can command every branch or arm of the Chantry as she sees fit.

So if the Grand Cleric can't personally command the Templars, then her only recourse for getting rid of Meredith would be to accuse her of some sort of misconduct, an allegation she would have to prove or it may well have been Elthina getting replaced.

Modifié par General User, 05 novembre 2011 - 08:52 .

[Inprea]

Gervaise wrote...

Okay I'm going to play devil's advocate here.

First and foremost if the intention is to remove the Grand Cleric because she is incompentent, then you assassinate her, not blow her up and everyone else in the building with her, innocent and guilty, clergy and lay people, widows and orphans.  

Anders did not blow up Elthina because she was incompetent (even though he does call her a doddering old biddy), he blows her up because he wanted to remove the possibility for compromise.  This suggests that Elthina was all that was holding back all hell breaking loose and that the Chantry as an institution is also the compromise between total mage freedom and templars eradicating them on sight.

The Gallows is removed from the main city and is under the control of the Templars.  Whilst Elthina may nominally have control, in reality she relies upon the information supplied to her by the Knight Commander and her immediate subordinates, like Cullen.   If I was Elthina I would naturally assume that these two individuals had control over their troops and would deal with any illegalities that occurred.   I would also assume that Orsino would also make me aware of anything disturbing that was occurring.   Strangely enough, when Orsino is making his case to the populace and when he talks to Hawke, he makes no mention of the rape, forcible tranquility and other abuses.  Nor for that matter does Thrask do anything.   If Hawke had been asked to take the issue of abuses to Elthina or the writers had allowed Hawke to raise the matter of illegal rites of tranquility, and Elthina had ignored this and done nothing, then you could acuse her of failing in her responsibilities.  However, you cannot assume that she is fully aware of everything that goes on in the Gallows.  (Bear in mind the President of the United States is head of the armed forces and responsible for their actions but prisoners in Iraq were abused - by your reasoning the President should be blown up)
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During Act 3, Sebastian asks Averline how she views the situation, since Elthina is worried that Meredith is no longer taking her advice.  Averline's response, as Captain of the Guard, is that they should continue to support Meredith.  Thus Elthina will not have the support of the civil authorities if she tries to remove Meredith from power.

If you talk to Cullen and ask who he thinks Elthina will support, his response is that she has no choice but to support the Templars because they hold their position of the mages by "Divine Right".  He also says at the end to Meredith, that when people started to whisper against her, he defended her.  It is therefore patently obvious that if Elthina had gone to Cullen, as Meredith's second in command, and asked him to remove her from office, he would like as not have refused.
It is also obvious that he does not support her view that "both sides have valid arguments."

According the Ser Keras (if still alive) Meredith has applied to the Divine for permission to enact the Right of Anulment in Kirkwall, effectively going behind Elthina's back.  That the Divine is taking the situation seriously may be determined from the fact that she considers making an Exalted March on the City and warns Elthina to get out.  Elthina refuses to do so and asks Hawke to try and persaude Sister Nightingale to tell the Divine to back off because she is trying to save innocent lives.  Clearly her word alone is not considered sufficient by the Divine otherwise she would not ask Hawke to intervene.  One might also ask why Hawke doesn't point out to Sister Nightingale all the abuses that have occurred in the Circle when they have the opportunity.

If, after distracting Elthina, you go back a last time before going to the Gallows, she says "I hope you haven't come to try and get me to leave again.  I will not leave my people to bear the price of war beween the Templars and Malificarum."   She has recognised that it has moved beyond simply Meredith against Orsino.   She knows her life is in danger, whether from the Resolutionists or her own "side" but she stays put to prevent the possibility of an Exalted March by the Divine and also I would think to try and protect the Circle mages.   Orsino would not have been trying to approach Elthina if he thought she would not help.   Neither would Meredith try and prevent him.

Elthina was as much a victim of the system as the Circle mages were.  Her only "crime" was that she was trying to follow a pattern of behaviour that had allegedly served well enough for the previous 1,000 years and was not politically savvy enough to keep pace with events.   Bear in mind, the codex said that the was probably the most popular Grand Cleric ever in the Freemarches and this was probably due to the fact that, as Sebastian claimed, she tried to be a mother to those in her care, which was not just the people in the Chantry but the wider population.

Anders did not blow Elthina up because of anything she had or had not done - he blew her up because he did not see her as an individual, a person, just a symbol.   He blew her up because he didn't care who he killed so long as he achieved his aims and that included the Circle Mages and for that matter Hawke.

Bombing a civilian target is never justified, it is not Justice.  

I can't agree with your assessment on what Elthina would have known. Elthina saw sir Alrik's request for one thing so she had to know what type of person he was. The fact that Meredith does nothing to such an individual and leaves him in a position of absolute authority over the mages also shows her character. There is also the fact that Elthina herself says, "I would not wish to be locked in the gallows." She knew what kind of place the gallows had been turned into and still chose to do nothing about Meredith.

Further more Elthina wouldn't have needed public support to remove Meredith she is after all the grand cleric. She could have removed her with an order and sent for a new knight commander. That or if Meredith had refused to leave she could have sent to the divine asking for a seeker to come and investigate the situation.

She should have also known better then to rely on information about the templar abuses from the templars themselves or the mages they hold in conefinement. As was pointed out. The number of tranquil allone inside the gallows serves as evidence that something is going on. Especially as chantry law itself makes it illegal to make a mage that passed their harrowing tranquil.

I should also mention I never asked if Anders took the correct path. I stated that I believed Elthena deserved to die for her failures as a person in a position of authority as I believe that authority comes with a great deal of responsibility. The more power you have the greater the responsibility.

What I did ask was whether or not people believe Elthena had performed a criminal acts due to her failings as grand cleric and to what degree they'd gone. You apparently believe that despite her position of authority Elthina had no responsibility for what happened which is fine that's your view.

[Lazy Jer]

Inprea wrote...

...What I did ask was whether or not people believe Elthena had performed a criminal acts due to her failings as grand cleric and to what degree they'd gone. ...

Well if that's your question, then my opinion is no.  She didn't perform criminal acts.  I believe she should have done more to mitigate the disaster, but I don't believe her acts were criminal.  Negligenct perhaps, but not criminal negligence.