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[LadyJaneGrey]

Lord Aesir wrote...

*snip*

Thing is, it always seemed to me that primary duty of the Grand cleric was to be the spiritual guide of the people rather than an administrator.  She fulfills that responsability and is well liked in Kirkwall.

*snip*

I...don't think Elthina really does such a great job as a spiritual guide.  Don't have the dialogue handy, but she quite plainly says she doesn't tell the people of Kirkwall to knock off the "QUNARI ARE DEMONS WHO MUST BE TAKEN OUT BY ANY MEANS, INCLUDING TORTURE AND MURDER" attitude because "if they won't listen to Andraste, they won't listen to me, so why bother?"

Why bother?  Because part of your job as Grand Cleric is to instruct those who look to the Chantry for spiritual and moral guidance.  And, whether you like it or not, part of that means condemning wrong attitudes and actions.

It's like a bishop/priest/rabbi/pastor/imam saying "Oh my, some of my charges are practicing pedophilia?  Well, I'm sure they've been told it's wrong by somebody else so why should I bother condemning it?"  Because it's part of your job to tell them "THIS IS NOT OKAY".

If Elthina can't stomach confrontation, she needs to find a replacement who can.  She's not doing anyone, including the every-day people of Kirkwall, any favors.  <_<

[Leon481]

As far as Alrik, he was Meredith's responsibility and it seems natural to leave his fate up to her. As far as the evidence Hawke gives her, half of it comes after the fact and the other half predicts events that happen too fast for her to take action about.

Lastly, about mage abuses. How many of these abuses do you think she had hard evidence on and how much was just rumor? Evidence of Alrik came after his death, Templars cover for each other, Meredith seemed determined to keep her out of it, and mages besides Orsino couldn't go and complain. She may not have had the right to remove Meredith without hard evidence and nothing points to her having any. Besides, with Alrik dead the worst abuser was gone and while Meredith was over the top strict and paranoid, there was no indication that she actually went outside the rules the chantry set or committed any Alrik level abuse.

There was no direct cause for Elthina to step in. The most she could do was talk to these people and no one was willing to listen.

[General User]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...
I...don't think Elthina really does such a great job as a spiritual guide.  Don't have the dialogue handy, but she quite plainly says she doesn't tell the people of Kirkwall to knock off the "QUNARI ARE DEMONS WHO MUST BE TAKEN OUT BY ANY MEANS, INCLUDING TORTURE AND MURDER" attitude because "if they won't listen to Andraste, they won't listen to me, so why bother?"

Fanatics aren't particularly well known for listening to anyone who isn't telling them what they want to hear.

[Inprea]

Leon481 wrote...

As far as Alrik, he was Meredith's responsibility and it seems natural to leave his fate up to her. As far as the evidence Hawke gives her, half of it comes after the fact and the other half predicts events that happen too fast for her to take action about.

Lastly, about mage abuses. How many of these abuses do you think she had hard evidence on and how much was just rumor? Evidence of Alrik came after his death, Templars cover for each other, Meredith seemed determined to keep her out of it, and mages besides Orsino couldn't go and complain. She may not have had the right to remove Meredith without hard evidence and nothing points to her having any. Besides, with Alrik dead the worst abuser was gone and while Meredith was over the top strict and paranoid, there was no indication that she actually went outside the rules the chantry set or committed any Alrik level abuse.

There was no direct cause for Elthina to step in. The most she could do was talk to these people and no one was willing to listen.

So you think the fact that Meredith covered for Alrik letting him retain his position and the rumors shouldn't have set off some warning bells and called for an official investigation?

The fact that there was a templar like Alrik in the gallows to begin with should have called for an investigation into the order. This does not require an official accusation if you read your codex about the seekers of truth. The chantry has an organization set up to investigate suspected abuses of mages. Elthina would have quietly sent for a seeker.

[Estelindis]

You don't get to execute people for not taking the negotiating stance that you'd wish them to have and claim that it's justice. Last time I checked, that wasn't a crime with a death sentence.

As for saying that Elthina could have easily done everything differently and all would have gone peachily just because "she's the high cleric" (and hence she caused deaths by not doing so), the fact of the matter is that Meredith had more tangible power in Kirkwall than Elthina did. After the Viscount's death, Elthina was more of a figurehead. She exerted influence because both Meredith and Orsino respected her, not because the templars would have all done her bidding if she'd ordered them to arrest Meredith. What were her real options? Excluding taking Orsino or Meredith's side - not an action I think would have been accepted blandly by the other side, frankly - she either would have had to leave Kirkwall, essentially ceasing to act as a moderating influence between Orsino and Meredith, or she would have had to call for an Exalted March, which would have led to many deaths, including those of mages that Anders supposedly wanted to protect (but, really, Elthina seemed more objectively concerned for their lives). And, until Anders blew up the chantry, it was working. Elthina was still able to talk down Orsino and Meredith, when push came to shove. Anders didn't want that, didn't want compromise - any such attempts could only perpetuate what he sees as an unjust status quo regarding mages. He thought things had to be shaken up. And, when he did the shaking, how many mages died? How many found themselves pushed towards blood magic as a last resort? And whose actions, ultimately, caused more death - Elthina's or Anders'?

Frankly, I feel that most antipathy towards Elthina comes from the fact that people want to shift blame for Anders' atrocity onto someone, anyone else. And who better to totally take blame than the person he intentionally murdered? If it's her fault, all blame for her death passes from him to herself - he's totally absolved. A reprehensible line of thought, in my opinion.

All that being said, I'm not posting because I think you're going to change your opinion, nor am I asking you to try to change mine. I'm just sharing my perspective. I feel that, in general, thoughts on this topic are quite set in stone and most people's opinions on it are unlikely to change.

[Heimdall]

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

I can't agree with not blaiming her. She's in a position of authority and authority comes with responsibility or you end up with very poor leaders. If she couldn't come to a decision on how to handle the situation in three years then she should have been wise enough to step aside and let someone who's competent take up the position.

I Thing is, it always seemed to me that primary duty of the Grand cleric was to be the spiritual guide of the people rather than an administrator.  She fulfills that responsability and is well liked in Kirkwall.  It is not so simple to replace such a well liked Grand Cleric.  Elthina does try to keep Meredith and Orsino away from each other's throats.  One must also consider what her responsibilities are.  The Grand Cleric's mission is not to fight for mage rights.  At most, it is her mission to keep Meredith from going too far.  And she did that at least in part in keeping the rite of annulment from her.  As far as I saw, nobody knew how to handle the situation.  As for Alrik, I still don't see how she can be blamed unless you believe people should be demoted for their political stances.

Should she have done more?  Perhaps, but it is still not her responsibility to protect mages from Templar abuses.  She could have ordered the rite at any time if she thought Meredith was right.  She clearly didn't, neither did she think harsh measures were entirely unmeritted given the increase in blood mage activity.  She just wanted to keep the two from tearing each other apart.  If it means anything, I think that without Ander's interference the compromises would have gone on and eventually even Elthina would have been forced to dismiss Meredith.  Ending the compromises was part of Ander's whole rational for blowing up the Chantry.  He wanted everyone to take a side, and she refused to.

The Grand Cleric has authority over the templars. As the templars are a military arm of the chantry and you don't get much higher in the chantery then grand cleric. So it is far more then just an advisor. I strongly disagree with the notion that she stopped Meredith from going too far especially whenever she let her take over the viscounts position whenever templars aren't suppose to command worldly power.

I also disagree with the notion that she wasn't suppose to protect the mages from templar abuse. She most assuredly was. As the head of an organization or a person in a position of authority you are responsible for everything your subordinates do. That's one of the prices of authority. She didn't take that responsibility though and chose to wait around and trust that the maker would fix all the problems for her.

As for Alrik. Alrik revealed his true nature with the tranquil solution and the letters he sent to the divine and grand cleric. So she knew that he was a danger to the mages and she also knew that he was in a position of power over the mages yet she did nothing to remove him from that position even through as grand cleric she most assuredly has the authority. The fact that she didn't means that yes she is responsible for his actions as she is his superior and she knew of his mentality.

You don't leave a dangerous person in a position of power or would you leave a pedofile in charge of a kindergarden? As that's pretty much what was done with Alrik.

I know there are things Elthina should have done.  However, I still believe you are misenterpretting the role of the Grand Cleric.  The Templars are the military arm of the chantry, true, and the Knight Commander commands them.  It is the Knight Commander's duty to root out corruption in the Templars.  I also didn't say that Elthina stopped Meredith from going too far entirely, I said her denial of the rite was her step in that direction.  However, I don't think she could have stopped Meredith from taking the viscounts authority if she wanted to given her support from the largest armed force in Kirkwall.  She could deny the rite of annulment because the chantry laws dictate Meredith needed her permission.

More to the point, what you believe a person in authoity over mages is responsible for and the veiw of the organization that put mages in that position don't agree.  The chantry prizes containment and hunting of blood mages and maleficar over the comfort of the mages.  That she was looking to balance them speaks well for her even if she missed the crucial step of replacing Meredith.  I also think they consider Templar abuses as falling into the juristiction of the Knight Commander.  The parrallel and overlapping of the Templar and clergy command structures is a bit vague.  One must remember that Elthina only had power in an abstract hierarchy and as long as Meredith was willing to listen.  Meredith commanded strength of arms.  I think Elthina understood the risks of pushing her too far given her instability.  Also, considering Elthina probably gets her reports about such incidents from the Templars themselves, I'm not sure exactly how much she would know about them.  All Elthina was trying to do was keep the situation from exploding, and under the circumstances I don't think a resolution was in any near reach anyway, and she was successful until someone killed her.

What she knew, was that a Templar named Sir Alrik put forth a proposal about what was to be done with mages.  She did not know he was going to disreguard the orders of both the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and go through with this plan anyway.  You're comparison is not at all apt.  Alrik suggested an idea.  I think we can presume that he didn't go on at length about how much he enjoyed abusing mages and tranquil.  You're suggesting that Elthina knew Ser Alrik was so inclined rather than simply having radical ideas, perhaps simply believing that tranquil were much easier to contain than mages.  I haven't the faintest idea how you can make this leap in logic.  All she knew was that he had radical ideas, nothing more.  She knew his proposal, not his mentality.  In fact, that he tried to go through official channels for his idea probably suggested to her that he would abide by the rulings of the Grand Cleric.

Even if she didn't do everything perhaps she should have, do you really think that means she deserves to be blown up?

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 05 novembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[LobselVith8]

Estelindis wrote...

After the Viscount's death, Elthina was more of a figurehead.

According to the codex on Grand Cleric Elthina, Meredith is her subordinate, and she has no problem giving direct orders to the templars to escort First Enchanter Orsino "gently" back to the Gallows. In fact, Orsino heads to Elthina because he wants her to order Meredith to back down (moments before Anders destroys the Kirkwall Chantry), and Meredith seems determined to stop Orsino from actually seeing her. It doesn't seem to me that Elthina is simply a figurehead, especially when Meredith tells her that Orsino should be sent back to the Gallows in chains, and she tells Meredith to back down and be a "good girl."

Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to display this sense of using her authority during the three years when Meredith becomes a dictator over Kirkwall, or when Hawke brings to her attention that members of the Chantry are using her name to start a religious war with the Qunari.

[Estelindis]

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the codex on Grand Cleric Elthina, Meredith is her subordinate, and she has no problem giving direct orders to the templars to escort First Enchanter Orsino "gently" back to the Gallows. In fact, Orsino heads to Elthina because he wants her to order Meredith to back down (moments before Anders destroys the Kirkwall Chantry), and Meredith seems determined to stop Orsino from actually seeing her. It doesn't seem to me that Elthina is simply a figurehead, especially when Meredith tells her that Orsino should be sent back to the Gallows in chains, and she tells Meredith to back down and be a "good girl."

Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to display this sense of using her authority during the three years when Meredith becomes a dictator over Kirkwall, or when Hawke brings to her attention that members of the Chantry are using her name to start a religious war with the Qunari.

My point is that, regardless of canonical chanty leadership structure, Elthina depends more and more on her subordinates agreeing to go along with what she asks of them as time goes on.  She can command Orsino and Meredith to do reasonable things, within certain limits, and have a good expectation that they will do as she commands because they respect her.  It would be a different story if she ordered them to do more extreme things that went against the side they'd taken - that is, if she came down on one side or another.  She's not in a position where they'll just do whatever she says, willynilly.  But if she asks them to do things they're not entirely unprepared to do, then, just by the act of getting them to agree, she can maintain a certain peace.  That's why I think she acted as she did.

EDIT: As for Meredith trying to stop Orsino from seeing Elthina, we'll never know how that might have worked out (thanks, Anders).  My personal suspicion, though, is that, if Meredith had any fear that Elthina would take the mages' side, then at least some of that fear was that Meredith would then be forced to at least try to take over.  At some level, she didn't want to do that.  She didn't want to be in a situation where she'd be rebelling against the rightful head of the local chantry.  But, if Elthina put her in that position by taking the side of blood mages (as Meredith would see it), then she'd ultimately have no choice.  Just my take on it.

Modifié par Estelindis, 05 novembre 2011 - 10:08 .

[Gervaise]

On the whole no one would wish to be locked up against their will, particularly in a former slave prison. Elthina is probably sympathetic to the situation of the mages when she says about not wishing to be locked up there - not that she is aware of the abuses that are occuring.

Elthina will not be aware of the precise number of tranquil because no one has to apply to her to perform the Rite of Tranquility. Since the tranquil stay for the most part in the Gallows, how is she meant to know their numbers have changed drastically? Orsino on the other hand should know if mages are being illegally being made tranquil. It is one of the oddities of the plot writing in DA2 that Anders always seems to know more of what is going on in the Gallows than the First Enchanter does. If illegalities are occurring then he should be informing the Grand Cleric or else how would she know? So far as I could tell from Origins, the Circle more or less ran itself and the Knight Commander of the Templars only resorted to the nearest Grand Cleric for authority to do major things, like a Rite of Annulment. This is probably a safeguard written in just in case a Knight Commander should go crazy - with Elthina dead, Meredith is able to by-pass this. I am not sure but I think it is quite an unusual situation to have the Circle virtually within a large city and thus so close to the Grand Cleric. In Ferelden the nearest Grand Cleric was in Denerim so there is no way she would have overseen what was going on in the Circle. If this was the norm then there was no precedent for the Grand Cleric to interfere in the day to day running of the Circle unless requested to do so by either the Knight Commander or the First Enchanter.

Elthina's biggest mistake is to place too much trust in Meredith and too much reliance on the belief that in the end all will be "as the Maker wills it". I repeat this is down to the conditioning that she has had in the "system", which ultimately let her down. The system may be criminal but not Elthina herself, unless you have definite proof that she knew of what went on. If a catalogue of abuses had been written down and delivered to Elthina by Hawke, so she was made directly aware of the precise nature of what went on in the Gallows, then you could have a case against her. When her flock is constantly reporting instances of abominations and blood thralls appearing throughout the city, it is hardly surprising that she places her trust in the Templars.

[Xilizhra]

My short response to this: "What responsibility?" I'm not sure if Elthina even knows the meaning of the word.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
According to the codex on Grand Cleric Elthina, Meredith is her subordinate,

The Templars are an entirely separate arm or branch of the Chantry.  Just because the Knight Commander is the nominal (and I do stress nominal) subordinate of the Grand Cleric doesn't mean Elthina can interfere with the operations or directives of the Templar Order as she sees fit.

LobselVith8 wrote...
and she has no problem giving direct orders to the templars to escort First Enchanter Orsino "gently" back to the Gallows.

Templars are soldiers, not children.  When a cleric of towering seniority gives them a directive, they aren't going to pitch a "but you're not my real mom boss!"-fit.  If Meredith had tried to publicly belay Elthina's orders, that would have been something else entirely.

LobselVith8 wrote...
In fact, Orsino heads to Elthina because he wants her to order Meredith to back down (moments before Anders destroys the Kirkwall Chantry), and Meredith seems determined to stop Orsino from actually seeing her. It doesn't seem to me that Elthina is simply a figurehead, especially when Meredith tells her that Orsino should be sent back to the Gallows in chains, and she tells Meredith to back down and be a "good girl."

Such is the nature of 'moral authority.'

[Inprea]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

I thought Elthina was nice but quite possibly senile old lady. She means well, but I don't think she really knows what to do to remedy the situation. I don't think she was fully aware of all the abuses. I do think she knew there were rogue blood mages in Kirkwall. I think she couldn't decide between Orsino's complaints about the Templars and Meredith's calling for more drastic measures against blood mages and rogue elements.

(On the subject of Ser Alrik, she rejected his proposal. She was not going to demote him solely for voicing an opinion and it's the knight commander's responsibility to manage the other Templars. I don't think information actually reaches her about his actions until after the fact. It's hard to really blame her for something like that. Meredith probably should have known though)

I can't agree with not blaiming her. She's in a position of authority and authority comes with responsibility or you end up with very poor leaders. If she couldn't come to a decision on how to handle the situation in three years then she should have been wise enough to step aside and let someone who's competent take up the position.

I Thing is, it always seemed to me that primary duty of the Grand cleric was to be the spiritual guide of the people rather than an administrator.  She fulfills that responsability and is well liked in Kirkwall.  It is not so simple to replace such a well liked Grand Cleric.  Elthina does try to keep Meredith and Orsino away from each other's throats.  One must also consider what her responsibilities are.  The Grand Cleric's mission is not to fight for mage rights.  At most, it is her mission to keep Meredith from going too far.  And she did that at least in part in keeping the rite of annulment from her.  As far as I saw, nobody knew how to handle the situation.  As for Alrik, I still don't see how she can be blamed unless you believe people should be demoted for their political stances.

Should she have done more?  Perhaps, but it is still not her responsibility to protect mages from Templar abuses.  She could have ordered the rite at any time if she thought Meredith was right.  She clearly didn't, neither did she think harsh measures were entirely unmeritted given the increase in blood mage activity.  She just wanted to keep the two from tearing each other apart.  If it means anything, I think that without Ander's interference the compromises would have gone on and eventually even Elthina would have been forced to dismiss Meredith.  Ending the compromises was part of Ander's whole rational for blowing up the Chantry.  He wanted everyone to take a side, and she refused to.

The Grand Cleric has authority over the templars. As the templars are a military arm of the chantry and you don't get much higher in the chantery then grand cleric. So it is far more then just an advisor. I strongly disagree with the notion that she stopped Meredith from going too far especially whenever she let her take over the viscounts position whenever templars aren't suppose to command worldly power.

I also disagree with the notion that she wasn't suppose to protect the mages from templar abuse. She most assuredly was. As the head of an organization or a person in a position of authority you are responsible for everything your subordinates do. That's one of the prices of authority. She didn't take that responsibility though and chose to wait around and trust that the maker would fix all the problems for her.

As for Alrik. Alrik revealed his true nature with the tranquil solution and the letters he sent to the divine and grand cleric. So she knew that he was a danger to the mages and she also knew that he was in a position of power over the mages yet she did nothing to remove him from that position even through as grand cleric she most assuredly has the authority. The fact that she didn't means that yes she is responsible for his actions as she is his superior and she knew of his mentality.

You don't leave a dangerous person in a position of power or would you leave a pedofile in charge of a kindergarden? As that's pretty much what was done with Alrik.

I know there are things Elthina should have done.  However, I still believe you are misenterpretting the role of the Grand Cleric.  The Templars are the military arm of the chantry, true, and the Knight Commander commands them.  It is the Knight Commander's duty to root out corruption in the Templars.  I also didn't say that Elthina stopped Meredith from going too far entirely, I said her denial of the rite was her step in that direction.  However, I don't think she could have stopped Meredith from taking the viscounts authority if she wanted to given her support from the largest armed force in Kirkwall.  She could deny the rite of annulment because the chantry laws dictate Meredith needed her permission.

More to the point, what you believe a person in authoity over mages is responsible for and the veiw of the organization that put mages in that position don't agree.  The chantry prizes containment and hunting of blood mages and maleficar over the comfort of the mages.  That she was looking to balance them speaks well for her even if she missed the crucial step of replacing Meredith.  I also think they consider Templar abuses as falling into the juristiction of the Knight Commander.  The parrallel and overlapping of the Templar and clergy command structures is a bit vague.  One must remember that Elthina only had power in an abstract hierarchy and as long as Meredith was willing to listen.  Meredith commanded strength of arms.  I think Elthina understood the risks of pushing her too far given her instability.  Also, considering Elthina probably gets her reports about such incidents from the Templars themselves, I'm not sure exactly how much she would know about them.  All Elthina was trying to do was keep the situation from exploding, and under the circumstances I don't think a resolution was in any near reach anyway, and she was successful until someone killed her.

What she knew, was that a Templar named Sir Alrik put forth a proposal about what was to be done with mages.  She did not know he was going to disreguard the orders of both the Knight Commander and Grand Cleric and go through with this plan anyway.  You're comparison is not at all apt.  Alrik suggested an idea.  I think we can presume that he didn't go on at length about how much he enjoyed abusing mages and tranquil.  You're suggesting that Elthina knew Ser Alrik was so inclined rather than simply having radical ideas, perhaps simply believing that tranquil were much easier to contain than mages.  I haven't the faintest idea how you can make this leap in logic.  All she knew was that he had radical ideas, nothing more.  She knew his proposal, not his mentality.  In fact, that he tried to go through official channels for his idea probably suggested to her that he would abide by the rulings of the Grand Cleric.

Even if she didn't do everything perhaps she should have, do you really think that means she deserves to be blown up?

I disagree with you in terms of the level of authority that a grand cleric has over the templars. It seems quite clear to be that the grand cleric has authority over the knight commander. Now Meredith can choose to ignore that and Elthena admits that she has yet what does she do? She doesn't send for a seeker or even try to remove Meredith rather she expected Orsino to be the reasonable one and make all the compromises.

Also you say that she was working towards a solution. How many people had to be raped, made tranquil, tortured and killed before that solution was reached? 

I also shouldn't have to explain how foolish it is to rely on those committing the abuses to give accurate reports. Elthena gives a lot of lip service about wanting to balance things but does she once make a trip to the gallows and see what is going on herself? Does she ever go there to speak to the mages and get their side of the story?

I'm also curious what isn't apt about the comparison with a pedophile and a kindergarden. "Oh I know that he's a pedophile but I"m sure that he'll obey the law and not harm the children." Is effectively what Elthina said about Alrik. "I Know that he wants to make all mages tranquil but I'm sure he will obey the rules despite all the power templars have over mages."

As I believe those who are in a position of authority are responsible for the actions of their subbordinates I do believe Elthena may well deserve to be executed for her failure to perform her duties. Authority must come with responsibility.

[LadyJaneGrey]

General User wrote...

Fanatics aren't particularly well known for listening to anyone who isn't telling them what they want to hear.

You're absolutely right.  It doesn't mean she shouldn't make an effort though.

[Heimdall]

Inprea wrote...

I disagree with you in terms of the level of authority that a grand cleric has over the templars. It seems quite clear to be that the grand cleric has authority over the knight commander. Now Meredith can choose to ignore that and Elthena admits that she has yet what does she do? She doesn't send for a seeker or even try to remove Meredith rather she expected Orsino to be the reasonable one and make all the compromises.

Also you say that she was working towards a solution. How many people had to be raped, made tranquil, tortured and killed before that solution was reached? 

I also shouldn't have to explain how foolish it is to rely on those committing the abuses to give accurate reports. Elthena gives a lot of lip service about wanting to balance things but does she once make a trip to the gallows and see what is going on herself? Does she ever go there to speak to the mages and get their side of the story?

I'm also curious what isn't apt about the comparison with a pedophile and a kindergarden. "Oh I know that he's a pedophile but I"m sure that he'll obey the law and not harm the children." Is effectively what Elthina said about Alrik. "I Know that he wants to make all mages tranquil but I'm sure he will obey the rules despite all the power templars have over mages."

As I believe those who are in a position of authority are responsible for the actions of their subbordinates I do believe Elthena may well deserve to be executed for her failure to perform her duties. Authority must come with responsibility.

(Thought it was time to remove some of the old quotes)

As I said, you cast Meredith in a more villainous light than the chantry or Elthina does.  For starters, abuses occur in every circle and can't realistically be prevented all the time.  They aren't going to remove Elthina or Meredith for that, especially in a situation as unique as Kirkwall's.  Even though the abuses occur more often than normal in Kirkwall, so do abominations and maleficar.  As those increase in frequency so do the measures against mages.  You have to understand that Elthina does not believe Meredith nor Orsino are entirely wrong.  I have explained that, and yes she has forced both Meredith and Orsino to accept compromises, not just Orsino.  The Divine actually seems to think the situation has gone beyond the remedy of the Seekers and the possibility of an Exalted March is brought up to contain the result.  All this is out of the pervasiveness of blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall.  Those arguing against her seem to forget that Templar harshness was not the only thing on the ride.

As many as are necesary to avoid a confronatation that could tear the city apart and claim many more lives than inhabit the Gallows.

She hears from Orsino plenty, and I'm curious to wonder who you think would write the reports.  At some point you have to put some trust in your subordinates.  An organization doesn't survive when it does nothing but second guess itself.  What's more curious is that Orsino doesn't even seem to be aware of the extent of all these abuses and that Bethany seems to enjoy her life in the Circle and doesn't have a single incident.  Is there actually any in game evidence that these abuses are as rampant as some claim?  Most of what I hear is from Anders and he's hardly an unbiased source.

Do I really have to explain this?  Fine, I'll rephrase it.  Say a supervisor suggests locking all the children in closet for time out all day to make sure they can't possibly get in any trouble.  Elthina says "What a bad idea, no as your superior I forbid you from doing that"  She thinks he is fed up with looking after the children and wants a better way of keeping them out of trouble.  She has no way of knowing he really wants to fondle them in the closet.  It's not perfect, but it's a far more apt comparision than yours.  You're making this bizarre leap from "He wants to make them tranquil" to "He wants to rape them" that really doesn't make sense.  She doesn't know he's doing this out of sadistic urges, and not an overzealous desire to protect the world from mages.

I do not believe any individual is responsible for their subordinate's actions when they have gone rogue.  Otherwise every Knight Commander would be removed shortly after taking office because there is no realistic way to destroy all corruption.  That's my problem with your veiw.  How far up the chain does your blame go?  Does the Divine suffer the blame from the abuse of an impulsive young Templar in Nevarra?  And should be killed for that?  Meredith should be held responsible.  It is her duty to manage the Templars.  Elthina wanted to calm things down and thought she could do so by compromising and thus remove the necesity of an Exalted March or removing Meredith.  I actually think it might have worked, a quick look at history shows us that conflict arises when the ability to compromise fails.

[General User]

LadyJaneGrey wrote...

General User wrote...

Fanatics aren't particularly well known for listening to anyone who isn't telling them what they want to hear.

You're absolutely right.  It doesn't mean she shouldn't make an effort though.

I'm not sayin' I disagree.  You're right, she could condemn them by name.  Though, to be fair, mobs aren't exactly big on names either (it's my observation that they're more into a "'courage'-through-anonymity" kindathing). 

Condenming them by specific abuse would seem to be a more likely tact to take.  But there are many ways one could do this, especially since Elthina had no way of knowing just how far things would go, how they would go down, or how fast.

Does anyone know if the Andrastian liturgy includes a sermon?  I ask because one could say that any sermon Elthina preached on the subject of love (or any number of things really) would constitute a rebuke of the anti-qunari fanatics.

[Xilizhra]

As I said, you cast Meredith in a more villainous light than the chantry or Elthina does. For starters, abuses occur in every circle and can't realistically be prevented all the time. They aren't going to remove Elthina or Meredith for that, especially in a situation as unique as Kirkwall's.

Well, the Chantry seems quite tolerant of abuse, true.

As many as are necesary to avoid a confronatation that could tear the city apart and claim many more lives than inhabit the Gallows.

Which really should be in the negative numbers, because the templars were only making things worse.

She has no way of knowing he really wants to fondle them in the closet.

And she has no way of checking this? No way of ensuring the templars aren't going too far? How horribly designed is this?

Does the Divine suffer the blame from the abuse of an impulsive young Templar in Nevarra?

Yes, because she allows the Templar Order to exist under Chantry control, which seems to be inherently corrupt.

And should be killed for that? Meredith should be held responsible. It is her duty to manage the Templars. Elthina wanted to calm things down and thought she could do so by compromising and thus remove the necesity of an Exalted March or removing Meredith. I actually think it might have worked, a quick look at history shows us that conflict arises when the ability to compromise fails.

I don't believe anyone deserves to die, but I'm not that upset about Elthina dying.

Modifié par Xilizhra, 06 novembre 2011 - 12:36 .

[Snarkoleptic]

Estelindis wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the codex on Grand Cleric Elthina, Meredith is her subordinate, and she has no problem giving direct orders to the templars to escort First Enchanter Orsino "gently" back to the Gallows. In fact, Orsino heads to Elthina because he wants her to order Meredith to back down (moments before Anders destroys the Kirkwall Chantry), and Meredith seems determined to stop Orsino from actually seeing her. It doesn't seem to me that Elthina is simply a figurehead, especially when Meredith tells her that Orsino should be sent back to the Gallows in chains, and she tells Meredith to back down and be a "good girl."

Unfortunately, she doesn't seem to display this sense of using her authority during the three years when Meredith becomes a dictator over Kirkwall, or when Hawke brings to her attention that members of the Chantry are using her name to start a religious war with the Qunari.

My point is that, regardless of canonical chanty leadership structure, Elthina depends more and more on her subordinates agreeing to go along with what she asks of them as time goes on.  She can command Orsino and Meredith to do reasonable things, within certain limits, and have a good expectation that they will do as she commands because they respect her.  It would be a different story if she ordered them to do more extreme things that went against the side they'd taken - that is, if she came down on one side or another.  She's not in a position where they'll just do whatever she says, willynilly.  But if she asks them to do things they're not entirely unprepared to do, then, just by the act of getting them to agree, she can maintain a certain peace.  That's why I think she acted as she did.

EDIT: As for Meredith trying to stop Orsino from seeing Elthina, we'll never know how that might have worked out (thanks, Anders).  My personal suspicion, though, is that, if Meredith had any fear that Elthina would take the mages' side, then at least some of that fear was that Meredith would then be forced to at least try to take over.  At some level, she didn't want to do that.  She didn't want to be in a situation where she'd be rebelling against the rightful head of the local chantry.  But, if Elthina put her in that position by taking the side of blood mages (as Meredith would see it), then she'd ultimately have no choice.  Just my take on it.

Responding to a couple of points here, in reverse order.  First, on the above, I'm not sure we can ever address what was going through Meredith's mind in trying to stop Orsino getting an audience with Elthina, because by that point the lyrium had driven her completely bat****.  I almost wonder if the whole lyrium-crazy thing wasn't something thrown into the story, revealed as it was, to get players to stop and think "oh Jesus I've just been playing all this time with a distinct anti-establishment attitude and now I find out it wasn't the establishment, she's just crazy?"

Almost like it's an attempt to nullify all the new tranquil mages and other abuses that are hinted at throughout the game.  But, as has been said any number of times, the whole thing is HUGE on shades of grey.

Also from Estelindis:

Frankly, I feel that most antipathy towards Elthina comes from the fact
that people want to shift blame for Anders' atrocity onto someone, anyone
else. And who better to totally take blame than the person he
intentionally murdered? If it's her fault, all blame for her death
passes from him to herself - he's totally absolved. A reprehensible
line of thought, in my opinion.

I can't be the only one who, not knowing what was coming, let the conversation sit there waiting for input on the dialogue wheel while my jaw hit the floor.  Someone else mentioned chemistry in another post, and I have to admit with the whole drakestone and sela petrae business there was a tickle in my little hindbrain, that became more of an itch after being asked to distract Elthina, but I freaking love Anders and as a result was still completely shocked.  And, yes, I spent forever thinking "you betraying bastard" while trying to decide how to finish up my first play through.

What it comes down to, for me, anyway, is opinion on the overall establishment of mages and templars and clerics, oh my.  It's always rubbed me the wrong way, how mages are treated in Thedas - even the ideal of how mages should be treated - so I ended up going forward with the mages kind of thinking "it's done, now let's get them their freedom."

If there had to be a target (which, since the plot moved the way it did...), I think Elthina was the right one, simply for the ongoing abuses she allowed to take place.  I do believe she held at least equal responsibility with Meredith for the way templars in Kirkwall behaved, and you couldn't really go after Meredith in the same fashion without blowing up all the mages he's trying to free. 

On the flip side, killing anyone to make a point is, as you said, reprehensible.  Nothing should absolve Anders, just as nothing should absolve Meredith or Elthina.

[Inprea]

Lord Aesir wrote...

Inprea wrote...

I disagree with you in terms of the level of authority that a grand cleric has over the templars. It seems quite clear to be that the grand cleric has authority over the knight commander. Now Meredith can choose to ignore that and Elthena admits that she has yet what does she do? She doesn't send for a seeker or even try to remove Meredith rather she expected Orsino to be the reasonable one and make all the compromises.

Also you say that she was working towards a solution. How many people had to be raped, made tranquil, tortured and killed before that solution was reached? 

I also shouldn't have to explain how foolish it is to rely on those committing the abuses to give accurate reports. Elthena gives a lot of lip service about wanting to balance things but does she once make a trip to the gallows and see what is going on herself? Does she ever go there to speak to the mages and get their side of the story?

I'm also curious what isn't apt about the comparison with a pedophile and a kindergarden. "Oh I know that he's a pedophile but I"m sure that he'll obey the law and not harm the children." Is effectively what Elthina said about Alrik. "I Know that he wants to make all mages tranquil but I'm sure he will obey the rules despite all the power templars have over mages."

As I believe those who are in a position of authority are responsible for the actions of their subbordinates I do believe Elthena may well deserve to be executed for her failure to perform her duties. Authority must come with responsibility.

(Thought it was time to remove some of the old quotes)

As I said, you cast Meredith in a more villainous light than the chantry or Elthina does.  For starters, abuses occur in every circle and can't realistically be prevented all the time.  They aren't going to remove Elthina or Meredith for that, especially in a situation as unique as Kirkwall's.  Even though the abuses occur more often than normal in Kirkwall, so do abominations and maleficar.  As those increase in frequency so do the measures against mages.  You have to understand that Elthina does not believe Meredith nor Orsino are entirely wrong.  I have explained that, and yes she has forced both Meredith and Orsino to accept compromises, not just Orsino.  The Divine actually seems to think the situation has gone beyond the remedy of the Seekers and the possibility of an Exalted March is brought up to contain the result.  All this is out of the pervasiveness of blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall.  Those arguing against her seem to forget that Templar harshness was not the only thing on the ride.

As many as are necesary to avoid a confronatation that could tear the city apart and claim many more lives than inhabit the Gallows.

She hears from Orsino plenty, and I'm curious to wonder who you think would write the reports.  At some point you have to put some trust in your subordinates.  An organization doesn't survive when it does nothing but second guess itself.  What's more curious is that Orsino doesn't even seem to be aware of the extent of all these abuses and that Bethany seems to enjoy her life in the Circle and doesn't have a single incident.  Is there actually any in game evidence that these abuses are as rampant as some claim?  Most of what I hear is from Anders and he's hardly an unbiased source.

Do I really have to explain this?  Fine, I'll rephrase it.  Say a supervisor suggests locking all the children in closet for time out all day to make sure they can't possibly get in any trouble.  Elthina says "What a bad idea, no as your superior I forbid you from doing that"  She thinks he is fed up with looking after the children and wants a better way of keeping them out of trouble.  She has no way of knowing he really wants to fondle them in the closet.  It's not perfect, but it's a far more apt comparision than yours.  You're making this bizarre leap from "He wants to make them tranquil" to "He wants to rape them" that really doesn't make sense.  She doesn't know he's doing this out of sadistic urges, and not an overzealous desire to protect the world from mages.

I do not believe any individual is responsible for their subordinate's actions when they have gone rogue.  Otherwise every Knight Commander would be removed shortly after taking office because there is no realistic way to destroy all corruption.  That's my problem with your veiw.  How far up the chain does your blame go?  Does the Divine suffer the blame from the abuse of an impulsive young Templar in Nevarra?  And should be killed for that?  Meredith should be held responsible.  It is her duty to manage the Templars.  Elthina wanted to calm things down and thought she could do so by compromising and thus remove the necesity of an Exalted March or removing Meredith.  I actually think it might have worked, a quick look at history shows us that conflict arises when the ability to compromise fails.

The reason they were more and more blood mages was Meredith kept pushing them to desperate acts. Her tight fisted behavior was making things worse. These aren't criminals after all they're people who were born with an ability and are being made to suffer because the way they were born. You say that Meredith was forced to accept compromise. When? I didn't see her compromise once except during the events of the public square and even then that's hardly a compromise.

Even if those abuses can't be prevented they should not be condoned. "Oh that girl was raped but it's going to happen anyway so we might as well just ignore the culprit."

Yet that confrontation wasn't avoided. All Elthina's waiting around did was allow the problem to become even worse. The mages tolerated such abuses for three years after all.

As for additional in game evidence. There is Thrask who is actually a supporter of the circle but believes Meredith needs removed. There is the Stark Haven mages who if you talk to at the gallows make mention of the conditions they're kept in. Did you miss the part where Alain mentions the templars demanding things of the mages and how they're confined to their cells?

You compare being made tranquil to being locked in a closset? No. Meredith locked the mages in the closset confining them to their cells for little to no reason. Not allowing them to see sun light or interact with one another. What Alrik proposed was permenant damage that could not be repaired no matter what. An act that is much the same as killing them. He wanted to reduce them from people to tools. So yes comparing what he wanted to do to rape is very accurate.

Yes the divine is at fault. She is the leader of that organization yet I haven't seen a single thing done to protect the rights of the mages or to stop the abuse of the templars. She should have to give an accounting for why she allowed the templars to continue as they have been and for the suffering of the mages.

[Heimdall]

Inprea wrote...

Lord Aesir wrote...

Inprea wrote...

I disagree with you in terms of the level of authority that a grand cleric has over the templars. It seems quite clear to be that the grand cleric has authority over the knight commander. Now Meredith can choose to ignore that and Elthena admits that she has yet what does she do? She doesn't send for a seeker or even try to remove Meredith rather she expected Orsino to be the reasonable one and make all the compromises.

Also you say that she was working towards a solution. How many people had to be raped, made tranquil, tortured and killed before that solution was reached? 

I also shouldn't have to explain how foolish it is to rely on those committing the abuses to give accurate reports. Elthena gives a lot of lip service about wanting to balance things but does she once make a trip to the gallows and see what is going on herself? Does she ever go there to speak to the mages and get their side of the story?

I'm also curious what isn't apt about the comparison with a pedophile and a kindergarden. "Oh I know that he's a pedophile but I"m sure that he'll obey the law and not harm the children." Is effectively what Elthina said about Alrik. "I Know that he wants to make all mages tranquil but I'm sure he will obey the rules despite all the power templars have over mages."

As I believe those who are in a position of authority are responsible for the actions of their subbordinates I do believe Elthena may well deserve to be executed for her failure to perform her duties. Authority must come with responsibility.

(Thought it was time to remove some of the old quotes)

As I said, you cast Meredith in a more villainous light than the chantry or Elthina does.  For starters, abuses occur in every circle and can't realistically be prevented all the time.  They aren't going to remove Elthina or Meredith for that, especially in a situation as unique as Kirkwall's.  Even though the abuses occur more often than normal in Kirkwall, so do abominations and maleficar.  As those increase in frequency so do the measures against mages.  You have to understand that Elthina does not believe Meredith nor Orsino are entirely wrong.  I have explained that, and yes she has forced both Meredith and Orsino to accept compromises, not just Orsino.  The Divine actually seems to think the situation has gone beyond the remedy of the Seekers and the possibility of an Exalted March is brought up to contain the result.  All this is out of the pervasiveness of blood mages and abominations in Kirkwall.  Those arguing against her seem to forget that Templar harshness was not the only thing on the ride.

As many as are necesary to avoid a confronatation that could tear the city apart and claim many more lives than inhabit the Gallows.

She hears from Orsino plenty, and I'm curious to wonder who you think would write the reports.  At some point you have to put some trust in your subordinates.  An organization doesn't survive when it does nothing but second guess itself.  What's more curious is that Orsino doesn't even seem to be aware of the extent of all these abuses and that Bethany seems to enjoy her life in the Circle and doesn't have a single incident.  Is there actually any in game evidence that these abuses are as rampant as some claim?  Most of what I hear is from Anders and he's hardly an unbiased source.

Do I really have to explain this?  Fine, I'll rephrase it.  Say a supervisor suggests locking all the children in closet for time out all day to make sure they can't possibly get in any trouble.  Elthina says "What a bad idea, no as your superior I forbid you from doing that"  She thinks he is fed up with looking after the children and wants a better way of keeping them out of trouble.  She has no way of knowing he really wants to fondle them in the closet.  It's not perfect, but it's a far more apt comparision than yours.  You're making this bizarre leap from "He wants to make them tranquil" to "He wants to rape them" that really doesn't make sense.  She doesn't know he's doing this out of sadistic urges, and not an overzealous desire to protect the world from mages.

I do not believe any individual is responsible for their subordinate's actions when they have gone rogue.  Otherwise every Knight Commander would be removed shortly after taking office because there is no realistic way to destroy all corruption.  That's my problem with your veiw.  How far up the chain does your blame go?  Does the Divine suffer the blame from the abuse of an impulsive young Templar in Nevarra?  And should be killed for that?  Meredith should be held responsible.  It is her duty to manage the Templars.  Elthina wanted to calm things down and thought she could do so by compromising and thus remove the necesity of an Exalted March or removing Meredith.  I actually think it might have worked, a quick look at history shows us that conflict arises when the ability to compromise fails.

The reason they were more and more blood mages was Meredith kept pushing them to desperate acts. Her tight fisted behavior was making things worse. These aren't criminals after all they're people who were born with an ability and are being made to suffer because the way they were born. You say that Meredith was forced to accept compromise. When? I didn't see her compromise once except during the events of the public square and even then that's hardly a compromise.

Even if those abuses can't be prevented they should not be condoned. "Oh that girl was raped but it's going to happen anyway so we might as well just ignore the culprit."

Yet that confrontation wasn't avoided. All Elthina's waiting around did was allow the problem to become even worse. The mages tolerated such abuses for three years after all.

As for additional in game evidence. There is Thrask who is actually a supporter of the circle but believes Meredith needs removed. There is the Stark Haven mages who if you talk to at the gallows make mention of the conditions they're kept in. Did you miss the part where Alain mentions the templars demanding things of the mages and how they're confined to their cells?

You compare being made tranquil to being locked in a closset? No. Meredith locked the mages in the closset confining them to their cells for little to no reason. Not allowing them to see sun light or interact with one another. What Alrik proposed was permenant damage that could not be repaired no matter what. An act that is much the same as killing them. He wanted to reduce them from people to tools. So yes comparing what he wanted to do to rape is very accurate.

Yes the divine is at fault. She is the leader of that organization yet I haven't seen a single thing done to protect the rights of the mages or to stop the abuse of the templars. She should have to give an accounting for why she allowed the templars to continue as they have been and for the suffering of the mages.

The Resolutionists would disagree,  Right there, a group of mages that came to Kirkwall for the express purpose of aggravating the situation.  Neither was Grace forced into blood magic.  Sure, some mages were driven to become blood mages to become abominations, but to claim that all blame resides in the Templars is pure fantasy.  Mages had a hand in the escalation of atrocities as well, a fact so few are willing to acknowledge here.  And when other than then did you see Orsino forced to compromise so Meredith could get her way?  The whole point of that scene in the square was to show what Kirkwall has been like in recent times.  Meredith and Orsino argue, Elthina tells them to go to their rooms like naughty children. 

I never saw them condoned, did you?

The confrontation was forced by Ander's stupidity, it would not have occured in all likelihood if Elthina had been allowed to continue facilitating compromises.  Now there's a war engulfing most of the continent and countless more are dying.  Great job Anders, great job...

So the rape and torture you were going on about has no evidence?  Great, glad we've established that.  Nothing you've mentioned here is against Chantry law.  Meredith's rule was draconian, no doubt about that.  There was also a very real valid concern for the growing number of blood mages and abominations in the city.  Oh, and the First Enchanter had ties to a blood mage as it turns out.  Meredith did not simply get the idol and go nuts, her paranoia was fed by a very real threats to the city and the chantry.  In her draconian measure she went too far, ruthlessly hunting mages and blood mage.  She was successful in obliterating the mage underground, a point in her favor in the chantry's eyes I'm sure.  Conditions were hard for mages in the circle.  And so a sympathetic Templar like Thrask fought for the mages in those bad conditions.  It was bad, but nothing that was probably against Chantry law besides the use of the rite of Tranquility,  Of course, I still don't know if I believe this occured after Ser Alrik was gone because I've only heard that from somebody like Anders.

Well, you've fantastically missed the point.  Elthina Does Not Know Ser Alrik enjoys making Mages tranquil, he pitches the proposal as something that would be an effective way to combat maleficar.  I was refering to the abuse of the tranquil afterwards, but it seems you don't care about that.  It's something of a misnomer to call being made a tranquil a trauma.  The tranquil feels no pain or sadness, or hate, or rage, or emotional damage.  The comparison with rape is faulty at best.  The act of being made tranquil is horrific, yes, but is more akin to a lobotomy.  It is a tradegy, but the individual who suffers it is no longer after.  They've been rendered incapable of that.  Anyway, my point is that Meredith and Elthina are lead to believe Ser Alrik merely holds a radical political veiw, not that the sick bastard enjoys it.  Also, just to prove to you the Templar and clergy command structures are not as directly linked as you think, please go reread Ser Alrik's papers.  He sent his proposal to Meredith and then directly to the Divine to appeal.  At no point was Elthina asked to sign off on the Tranquil Solution.  The Grand Cleric has absolutely no say in the authorizing of tranquility.  She may have never even been told about it.

And this is where I decide to stop this argument.  Clearly your veiw of blame is quite divorced from reality or any attempt to understand the Chantry or it's veiws. Further debate is pointless.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 06 novembre 2011 - 04:40 .

[Sanguinerin]

I liked Elthina a lot. I believe that it was her strong belief that remaining neutral was the best course of action for Kirkwall and for the prevention of mass bloodshed. It's not as if we, as players, don't do the same thing. For instance, in Origins, some might find Harrowmont to be the better candidate for the throne of Orzammar. I liked him enough. His intentions seemed far more noble than Bhelen. After my first run, however, who never becomes the king again? Harrowmont. I hate knowing the condition of Orzammar after helping him to the throne, and I now always choose Bhelen.

Maybe that isn't a perfect example, but I don't think it's the only one we could dig up where a big, important decision that we believe to be the "right" one can completely blow up in our faces. So in that, I can't fault Elthina for being any more human than I am when I'm controlling my own character and sticking to that character's beliefs.

That isn't to say that I believe someone can wash their hands of bloody mistakes because they believed that what they were doing was the right course of action, either. Blind faith in what you're doing can certainly lead to error, and as an aged woman in the position that she was, I definitely believe that she should have taken more action in the events that were unfolding. Despite liking her, I also do believe that had she done more than put her problems into the ears of the Maker, how the events unfolded might have played out differently. No one can say (well, the writers could, I suppose) how differently circumstances might have panned out... But I would think that less inaction would have definitely had an effect on the situation.

As for killing her, neither Elthina nor the other sisters and Kirkwallers in or nearby the Chantry deserved death. I could see myself eventually conceding in that, perhaps removing Elthina from her office would have been a great move in another direction, although I certainly wouldn't agree to assassination. I also never agree with the countless others killed in the explosion that likely had no knowledge or power to do anything about the situation in the first place.

[Heimdall]

Xilizhra wrote...

As I said, you cast Meredith in a more villainous light than the chantry or Elthina does. For starters, abuses occur in every circle and can't realistically be prevented all the time. They aren't going to remove Elthina or Meredith for that, especially in a situation as unique as Kirkwall's.

Well, the Chantry seems quite tolerant of abuse, true.

My point is that there really isn't a realistic way to bleed abuses from such a massive organization.  I don't think we've encountered any sizable organization in the DA universe yet that didn't have plenty of corruption.

As many as are necesary to avoid a confronatation that could tear the city apart and claim many more lives than inhabit the Gallows.

Which really should be in the negative numbers, because the templars were only making things worse.

  Yes, because all mages are entirely innocent in the escalation <_<

She has no way of knowing he really wants to fondle them in the closet.

And she has no way of checking this? No way of ensuring the templars aren't going too far? How horribly designed is this?

  This is the job of the Knight Commander.  It's her duty to regulate to Templars under their own command.

Does the Divine suffer the blame from the abuse of an impulsive young Templar in Nevarra?

Yes, because she allows the Templar Order to exist under Chantry control, which seems to be inherently corrupt.

  No more than any other organization in Thedas.  In fact I haven't really seen much chantry corruption until I met Petrice and Varnell.  Haven't met anyone else.

And should be killed for that? Meredith should be held responsible. It is her duty to manage the Templars. Elthina wanted to calm things down and thought she could do so by compromising and thus remove the necesity of an Exalted March or removing Meredith. I actually think it might have worked, a quick look at history shows us that conflict arises when the ability to compromise fails.

I don't believe anyone deserves to die, but I'm not that upset about Elthina dying.

Unless you really think all the people the mage Templar war will kill deserve to die, you should probably be a little upset the only person preventing it just got blown sky high.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 06 novembre 2011 - 05:02 .

[Inprea]

Lord Aesir wrote...

The Resolutionists would disagree,  Right there, a group of mages that came to Kirkwall for the express purpose of aggravating the situation.  Neither was Grace forced into blood magic.  Sure, some mages were driven to become blood mages to become abominations, but to claim that all blame resides in the Templars is pure fantasy.  Mages had a hand in the escalation of atrocities as well, a fact so few are willing to acknowledge here.  And when other than then did you see Orsino forced to compromise so Meredith could get her way?  The whole point of that scene in the square was to show what Kirkwall has been like in recent times.  Meredith and Orsino argue, Elthina tells them to go to their rooms like naughty children. 

I never saw them condoned, did you?

The confrontation was forced by Ander's stupidity, it would not have occured in all likelihood if Elthina had been allowed to continue facilitating compromises.  Now there's a war engulfing most of the continent and countless more are dying.  Great job Anders, great job...

So the rape and torture you were going on about has no evidence?  Great, glad we've established that.  Nothing you've mentioned here is against Chantry law.  Meredith's rule was draconian, no doubt about that.  There was also a very real valid concern for the growing number of blood mages and abominations in the city.  Oh, and the First Enchanter had ties to a blood mage as it turns out.  Meredith did not simply get the idol and go nuts, her paranoia was fed by a very real threats to the city and the chantry.  In her draconian measure she went too far, ruthlessly hunting mages and blood mage.  She was successful in obliterating the mage underground, a point in her favor in the chantry's eyes I'm sure.  Conditions were hard for mages in the circle.  And so a sympathetic Templar like Thrask fought for the mages in those bad conditions.  It was bad, but nothing that was probably against Chantry law besides the use of the rite of Tranquility,  Of course, I still don't know if I believe this occured after Ser Alrik was gone because I've only heard that from somebody like Anders.

Well, you've fantastically missed the point.  Elthina Does Not Know Ser Alrik enjoys making Mages tranquil, he pitches the proposal as something that would be an effective way to combat maleficar.  I was refering to the abuse of the tranquil afterwards, but it seems you don't care about that.  It's something of a misnomer to call being made a tranquil a trauma.  The tranquil feels no pain or sadness, or hate, or rage, or emotional damage.  The comparison with rape is faulty at best.  The act of being made tranquil is horrific, yes, but is more akin to a lobotomy.  It is a tradegy, but the individual who suffers it is no longer after.  They've been rendered incapable of that.  Anyway, my point is that Meredith and Elthina are lead to believe Ser Alrik merely holds a radical political veiw, not that the sick bastard enjoys it.  Also, just to prove to you the Templar and clergy command structures are not as directly linked as you think, please go reread Ser Alrik's papers.  He sent his proposal to Meredith and then directly to the Divine to appeal.  At no point was Elthina asked to sign off on the Tranquil Solution.  The Grand Cleric has absolutely no say in the authorizing of tranquility.  She may have never even been told about it.

And this is where I decide to stop this argument.  Clearly your veiw of blame is quite divorced from reality or any attempt to understand the Chantry or it's veiws. Further debate is pointless.

Grace gave up on blood magic until several years in the gallows had passed at which time the burden
became too much for her to endure. Unfortunately her hatred over took good reason and she lashed out at the champion as the cause of all her suffering. As for when Orsino is forced to compromise. Orsino isn't capable of leaving the gallows on his own to investigate the situation as Meredith would claim that is proof of his involvement or did you forget that little mission?

The actions were condoned by the lack of action upon the chanty's part and their leadership. If you do nothing to stop abuses them it's as good as condoning it.

All Anders did was accelerate theconfrontation. I don't know where you get the notion that had he not acted it wouldn't have happened. Meredith was already calling for the right of annulment and it clear mentions that Meredith was constantly putting more and more pressure on the mages stripping them of more of their rights.


Wrong. If you did the family letters quest with Carver you would have spoken with Tobrius you would note where he said that Meredith has changed the rules for the mages of the gallows. Not only that but Elthina herself says Meredith has stopped taking the advice of the chantry. Then there is the quest line a noble agenda.

If you listen to the girl she says, “She was whipped and starving.” When she's confronted by the death squad. Right there is further evidence of templar abuse. Also how can you say that there is no evidence whenever I already mentioned the dialogue with Elaine and how the templars require things of the mages even after Alrik's death?

Not only that but let's remember what Karen said as well. Karen clearly states that they need templars that work with mages not slaughter them. He doesn't say abuse or lock them up he says slaughter. As a templar he's there to see the conditions the mages are in and the abuses they endure first hand.

So yes there is evidence that the templars are abusing the mages you just choose to ignore it or want to claim that the witnesses aren't credible.


Yet Elthina new of the proposal if you took the papers to Elthina and spoke to about it she immediately admits to knowing about it. Not only that but if you remember the question Dissension when speaking to Anders he mentioned the grand cleric rejected the idea so once again proof that it was presented to her as well. The act of making someone tranquil is abusive enough without needing to factor in the abuses they went through afterwords being reduced to a slave labor force. There is very little difference between making someone tranquil and death. At least if they're dead their murderers don't continue abusing their body.

Further more. You do not leave a person who would even suggest such an idea in a position of near absolute authority over their intended victim. Especially without even bothering to have the situation investigated.

I've already listed several bits of proof you've just chosen to ignore it.

Modifié par Inprea, 06 novembre 2011 - 05:50 .

[Sir JK]

A very important thing about power is that it is never absolute. Everyone. Absolutely everyone, derives all the power they have from consent. You don't attain power. You are given it. And not from above, but from below.

In other words: You're powerful because people listen to you.

Elthina is neutral in the mage/templar conflict. Some, like Anders, interprets this as being non-comittall and/or cowardice. But it isn't. The truth of the matter is that Elthina has very little practical power. The templars listen to her because nominally she speaks for the Divine. As long as they believe she speaks for the Chantry then they'll listen to her, though not neccessarily do what she says.

But if she sides with the mages, if she demands Meredith's resignation (isn't this the purview of the Knight-Vigilant by the way? ) then in all practicality she will lose the support of the templars.
Elthina has no means to force Meredith to do anything. She has nominal authority, but no means of asserting it short of using the templars. SImilarily, the fact that she is neutral also lands her the support of Orsino and his mages.

Some say Elthina is ineffectual because she cannot change the status quo. Elthina isn't ineffectual. She's maintaining the status quo. She's the only reason there's peace in the first place. She's trying to allow the mages to improve their situation by maintaining a peace that allows them to open a dialogue with one another.
Elthina is trying to make the templars and mages solve their problems together.

The mages have no greater shield that Elthina. She might not be able to protect them against individual templars, but as long as she lives the templar order as a whole cannot move against the mages. She cannot force the templars or mages to condede at anything, she could take a side... but the other side would only concede if the solution is something they'd want anyways.

The important thing to remember is that this is never easy. Noone, no matter who he or she is, can you say "A" and it happens. Elthina is giving the templars and mages the greatest and most important gift she can give to facilitate a better world for both: Peace. For without peace there cannot be dialogue. And without dialogue... one side must be destroyed for the other to gain anything.

Elthina doing anything other than keeping the peace would only have funneled the flames. Not quenched them.

I know some people thinks the war is righteous. But that doesn't change the fact that in terms of responsibility for all the innocents in the conflict, Elthina was most certainly doing her part.

Modifié par Sir JK, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:33 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

According to the codex on Grand Cleric Elthina, Meredith is her subordinate,

The Templars are an entirely separate arm or branch of the Chantry.  Just because the Knight Commander is the nominal (and I do stress nominal) subordinate of the Grand Cleric doesn't mean Elthina can interfere with the operations or directives of the Templar Order as she sees fit.

Except Grand Cleric Elthina can clearly order templars to escort a mage to the Circle of Kirkwall, even a high ranking mage like the First Enchanter, and can determine how he is escorted. Also, becoming a dictator over the entire city is certainly not part of normal operations for the Order of Templars, even a Knight-Commander, especially when such a position has caused so many people to want Meredith's removal - civilians and nobles will rally around Hawke if he publicly opposes her and mages and templars will work together to see her removed from power.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

and she has no problem giving direct orders to the templars to escort First Enchanter Orsino "gently" back to the Gallows.

Templars are soldiers, not children.  When a cleric of towering seniority gives them a directive, they aren't going to pitch a "but you're not my real mom boss!"-fit.  If Meredith had tried to publicly belay Elthina's orders, that would have been something else entirely.

That must explain why the templar bowed to Elthina as a sign of respect, and why Meredith throws a fit in front of the entire audience regarding her thoughts that Orsino should be brought back in chains. Remember, Elthina is a popular Grand Cleric.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

In fact, Orsino heads to Elthina because he wants her to order Meredith to back down (moments before Anders destroys the Kirkwall Chantry), and Meredith seems determined to stop Orsino from actually seeing her. It doesn't seem to me that Elthina is simply a figurehead, especially when Meredith tells her that Orsino should be sent back to the Gallows in chains, and she tells Meredith to back down and be a "good girl."

Such is the nature of 'moral authority.'

Such is the nature of having the Knight-Commander be your subordinate:

"Reverend Mother Elthina assumed the mantle of grand cleric almost twenty years ago; she is responsible for the spiritual well-being of southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River). She has long been a calming presence in the city, renowned for her kindness and generosity. People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."

Based on her dialogue with Hawke, Elthina makes it clear she is letting the Maker sort things out, which is odd because it goes against the teachings of the Chantry (which is why Leliana suffered so much opposition to her claims at Lothering because it went against what the Chantry taught).