113 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

Estelindis wrote...

My point is that, regardless of canonical chanty leadership structure, Elthina depends more and more on her subordinates agreeing to go along with what she asks of them as time goes on.  She can command Orsino and Meredith to do reasonable things, within certain limits, and have a good expectation that they will do as she commands because they respect her.

Elthina, as Grand Cleric, is their superior. The people of Kirkwall are (for the most part) Andrastians, and she is the representative of the Chantry (and the highest ranking member of the organization in the city-state). The Chantry also controls the lyrium trade, which the templars depend on. According to the codex on lyrium: "The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface, giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor. What processed lyrium is sold on the surface goes only to the Chantry, who strictly control the supply. From the Chantry, it is dispensed both to the templars, who make use of it in tracking and fighting maleficarum, and to the Circle."

Estelindis wrote...

It would be a different story if she ordered them to do more extreme things that went against the side they'd taken - that is, if she came down on one side or another.  She's not in a position where they'll just do whatever she says, willynilly.  But if she asks them to do things they're not entirely unprepared to do, then, just by the act of getting them to agree, she can maintain a certain peace.  That's why I think she acted as she did.

You mean, standing idly by for the most part, and doing nothing? Like when Hawke brings to her attention that members of her organization are trying to start a religious war with the Qunari, and are using her seal to authorize deadly attacks? Or when she makes it clear she's taking a back seat because she thinks the Maker will handle her responsibilities for her?

Estelindis wrote...

EDIT: As for Meredith trying to stop Orsino from seeing Elthina, we'll never know how that might have worked out (thanks, Anders).  My personal suspicion, though, is that, if Meredith had any fear that Elthina would take the mages' side, then at least some of that fear was that Meredith would then be forced to at least try to take over.  At some level, she didn't want to do that.  She didn't want to be in a situation where she'd be rebelling against the rightful head of the local chantry.  But, if Elthina put her in that position by taking the side of blood mages (as Meredith would see it), then she'd ultimately have no choice.  Just my take on it.

If Meredith wanted to face a possible Exalted March and an end to the supply of lyrium from the Chantry, I suppose she could attempt that.

[Gervaise]

I know this is slightly off topic but I think it would be helpful to know exactly what the Chantry does teach about sexual abuse and other matters of mortality. The fact is in both Origins and DA2 we have people who abuse their power to rape people and no one except the victims really seems to object. Is it one of those weird things that because the Chant of Light doesn't specifically mention it, it is considered a lesser crime because it is not actually against the will of the Maker?

I ask this because the attitude of Averline when challenged over the alleged cause of the crime of the elf brothers, namely killing the guard who raped their sister. Her response is "there was a rumour". Was this before or after the guard was killed? I was never exactly sure whether they caught him in the act or exacted revenge after the event. Either way, she should have looked into the matter but it was almost as though she thought the motivation for the attack was not really important . We know from the earlier incident of the Magistrate's son, that elves don't seem to get much in the way of justice.

Howver, it is not just elves who are victims. In Denerim there was that merchant girl from Orlais, who had to flee the country with her brother because he forcibly stopped (but didn't actually kill) the Chevalier who was trying to rape her. Because the Chevalier are considered to have "divine right" over the rest of the population, apparently this rape wouldn't have been condemned by the Chantry but the young merchant would have been killed for his "crime".

Goldana accuses Maric of having forced himself on her mother, which would suggest that good king Maric was in the habit of raping servant girls.

Is it at all possible that if you have "divine right" over someone, then unless your actions are specifically condemned in the Chant of Light, you may do as you please? By this I mean, under the laws that operate in Thedas. That might at least go some way to explain why no one in authority - Meredith, Cullen or Elthina - does anything to prevent the abuse (assuming that they are aware it occurs).

You see we are all judging these matters by what is considered acceptable and the laws in our society and I not entirely sure that those in Thedas bear any similarity to them.

[Plaintiff]

Elthina is a stupid, incompetent **** and the Chantry is a corrupt, fascist institution that manipulates the faith and fear of the people. I would have gladly blown the building up myself, if Anders had only told me what he was up to.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
That must explain why the templar bowed to Elthina as a sign of respect, and why Meredith throws a fit in front of the entire audience regarding her thoughts that Orsino should be brought back in chains. Remember, Elthina is a popular Grand Cleric.

There are many cultures that use the bow as a sign of respect.  And in many different situations too.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Also, becoming a dictator over the entire city is certainly not part of normal operations for the Order of Templars, even a Knight-Commander, especially when such a position has caused so many people to want Meredith's removal - civilians and nobles will rally around Hawke if he publicly opposes her and mages and templars will work together to see her removed from power.

Orsino makes his appeals to Elthina and Hawke because they are the only figures in Kirkwall who can publicly oppose Meredith. 

In all fairness, a qunari attempted coup that left the city leaderless isn't part of anyone's normal operations.   Meredith faces opposition in Kirkwall not due to her assuming power, but rather her refusal to relinquish it.  Nevertheless, she still enjoys a substantial base of support in Kirkwall, both inside and outside the Templar Order, so thinking that she is just one good shove (from Elthina, Hawke, etc. or any combination thereof) away from being toppled is off by a far sight.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Such is the nature of having the Knight-Commander be your subordinate:

"Reverend Mother Elthina assumed the mantle of grand cleric almost twenty years ago; she is responsible for the spiritual well-being of southern Free Marches (everything south of Starkhaven and the Minanter River). She has long been a calming presence in the city, renowned for her kindness andgenerosity. People frequently turn to her to mediate disputes-particularly those involving the powerful Templar Order, over whom she holds authority as the Chantry's ranking representative."

Again, just being someone's nominal superior in an organization does NOT mean you can interfere in their affairs as you see fit.  Especially with a separate branch of that organization which has it's own distinct imperatives, official and otherwise.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Based on her dialogue with Hawke, Elthina makes it clear she is letting the Maker sort things out, which is odd because it goes against the teachings of the Chantry (which is why Leliana suffered so much opposition to her claims at Lothering because it went against what the Chantry taught).

What teachings are those? 

Leliana left her Lothering cloister not because of what the Chant taught, but because of what she learned from it.  A subtle but important distinction.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2011 - 02:24 .

[Estelindis]

Sir JK wrote...

A very important thing about power is that it is never absolute. Everyone. Absolutely everyone, derives all the power they have from consent. You don't attain power. You are given it. And not from above, but from below. 

I agree so much with this and with the rest of your post.

LobselVith8 wrote...

Elthina, as Grand Cleric, is their superior. 

Yes, but I disagree about the nature of the power relations between them; I think Sir JK illustrates the real situation very well.

LobselVith8 wrote...
If Meredith wanted to face a possible Exalted March and an end to the supply of lyrium from the Chantry, I suppose she could attempt that.

We've seen numerous cases of lyrium smuggling in both games.  I don't believe Meredith would regard a lyrium shortage as that much of a deal breaker.  If she came to believe that the Chantry had forsaken its duty of keeping mages in line, and that it fell to her to make sure that duty was still carried out, I don't believe she'd have any compunctions about getting lyrium from non-Chantry sources.

[IanPolaris]

Estelindis wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...
If Meredith wanted to face a possible Exalted March and an end to the supply of lyrium from the Chantry, I suppose she could attempt that.

We've seen numerous cases of lyrium smuggling in both games.  I don't believe Meredith would regard a lyrium shortage as that much of a deal breaker.  If she came to believe that the Chantry had forsaken its duty of keeping mages in line, and that it fell to her to make sure that duty was still carried out, I don't believe she'd have any compunctions about getting lyrium from non-Chantry sources.

Um, I think the lyrium supply threat is more serious than you are implying.  Sure there is lyrium smuggling, but to suggest that smuggling alone could supply all the daily needs of that many templars over normal channels is wrong I think.  Smuggling provides a little extra for those that are willing to pay extravagently.  Even IF the Smugglers could provide all the Lyrium the Kirkwall Templars would need on a daily basis (something I very much doubt), it would bankrupt the local Templars very quickly.

-Polaris

[Estelindis]

IanPolaris wrote...
I think the lyrium supply threat is more serious than you are implying.  Sure there is lyrium smuggling, but to suggest that smuggling alone could supply all the daily needs of that many templars over normal channels is wrong I think.  Smuggling provides a little extra for those that are willing to pay extravagently.  Even IF the Smugglers could provide all the Lyrium the Kirkwall Templars would need on a daily basis (something I very much doubt), it would bankrupt the local Templars very quickly.

Horrifying as this is, the creation of more Tranquil, which, as we know, some extreme Templars favour, would coincidentally provide more mages capable of permanently enchanting items.  There's a source of revenue for you right away.  Certainly, more lyrium would be needed for that as well, but, given that dwarves don't have mages at all and thus need to look to the surface for magic items (ignoring Sandal, since he's just one boy), they might well be happy to supply more lyrium in return for significant discounts on magic items.  If that increase in trade isn't enough to motivate more smugglers to sell more myrium to the Templars for less, I don't know what is.  However, I don't insist on the hypothesis.  I merely put it forward as just one example of how one could potentially work outside the Chantry.  I'm sure there are others, if one were to put one's mind to it.  Ultimately, I think that Meredith's priority is keeping the mages in line, so she'll do whatever it takes to accomplish that.

[Huntress]

"I know this is slightly off topic but I think it would be helpful to know exactly what the Chantry does teach about sexual abuse and other matters of mortality. The fact is in both Origins and DA2 we have people who abuse their power to rape people and no one except the victims really seems to object. Is it one of those weird things that because the Chant of Light doesn't specifically mention it, it is considered a lesser crime because it is not actually against the will of the Maker?"

They can't talk much about such a thing because many of the templars are criminals themselves, don't belive me?

Ferelden Circle:
(To Blood Mage during Broken Circle)

Blood Mage: "Please, if you spare me I... I could escape and seek penance at the Chantry."
Alistair: "You know they'll probably never take you. They're very picky about who they let in. Harlots, murderers, yes. Maleficarum, oh no..."
Leliana: "Your comments betray your ignorance, Alistair. The Chantry accepts all, regardless of what they've done."
Alistair: "Well, it seems you're familiar with a whole other Chantry, because the one I know wouldn't hesitate to shove a sword of mercy right through her heart."

Elthina was the HEAD of the templars in Kirkwall she's incompetent and allow abuses from the templars, She didn't want mages to suffer but didn't remove the cause of their suffering. Did she deserve to die?  Thats for you to decide but, if she is not going to do her job why keep her at all?
The chantry was more than a building it was the heart and soul of the templars in kirkwall, destroying that building means many things to many people to Anders it meant to chop of the head of the leader of the pack, just like wolves hunt and kill other pack leaders, and after that Fck the consequences. Mages were already dieying the only thing that was left to them was to decide how fast or slow would it be.

it seems that even if Elthina survived the mage and templar wars was going to start anyway, Kirkwall has a new faction of mages  and am very sure Anders is part of it.

Modifié par Huntress, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:58 .

[Sir JK]

Huntress. Alistair is speaking of the kind of people the Chantry accepts in to do penance. Serving as a templar is not penance. All he's saying is that they're never accepting a maleficarum to do penance. Not that former murderers are allowed into the Templar order.

[Huntress]

Say who?

If the criminal "seems" to repent and want to join the chantry they will allow it leliana being one of them ( she killed, lied and the did many other things still she servers the chantry not just as a templar but even higher than a simple templar she is a seeker who check and controls templars, templars/seekers are not born, they are made.


Some templars are good others are just criminals and worst than that they have the divine right to do as they please under elthina's watch.

Edit: all am saying if any of them can serve under the chantry they will be in it doing "the job".

the qunari do the same, they use people who "have skills" and are willing to server. the others are left to rot in the fields, as shown with tallis.

Modifié par Huntress, 06 novembre 2011 - 04:28 .

[Heimdall]

Huntress wrote...

Say who?

If the criminal "seems" to repent and want to join the chantry they will allow it leliana being one of them ( she killed, lied and the did many other things still she servers the chantry not just as a templar but even higher than a simple templar she is a seeker who check and controls templars, templars/seekers are not born, they are made.


Some templars are good others are just criminals and worst than that they have the divine right to do as they please under Meredith's watch.

Fixed

[Inprea]

Estelindis wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...
I think the lyrium supply threat is more serious than you are implying.  Sure there is lyrium smuggling, but to suggest that smuggling alone could supply all the daily needs of that many templars over normal channels is wrong I think.  Smuggling provides a little extra for those that are willing to pay extravagently.  Even IF the Smugglers could provide all the Lyrium the Kirkwall Templars would need on a daily basis (something I very much doubt), it would bankrupt the local Templars very quickly.

Horrifying as this is, the creation of more Tranquil, which, as we know, some extreme Templars favour, would coincidentally provide more mages capable of permanently enchanting items.  There's a source of revenue for you right away.  Certainly, more lyrium would be needed for that as well, but, given that dwarves don't have mages at all and thus need to look to the surface for magic items (ignoring Sandal, since he's just one boy), they might well be happy to supply more lyrium in return for significant discounts on magic items.  If that increase in trade isn't enough to motivate more smugglers to sell more myrium to the Templars for less, I don't know what is.  However, I don't insist on the hypothesis.  I merely put it forward as just one example of how one could potentially work outside the Chantry.  I'm sure there are others, if one were to put one's mind to it.  Ultimately, I think that Meredith's priority is keeping the mages in line, so she'll do whatever it takes to accomplish that.

The dwarfs don't look to the surface for magical items. Sandal is a sevant he is not unique in his skill. As his father said the dwarf smiths must study for many many years to master the trade but they don't require the tranquil.

[Huntress]

Dwarves don't have mages but they don't need them either, they extract the lyrium and can forge it to what ever they want, Dwarves have smith of all type not just weapons and armor they have lyrium workers, this workers make the lyrium spells like the one in orzammar (Garin is one of them) of course is more profitable to sell it to the chantry who is more than happy to give it to the templars to consume forgetting how dangerous it is.

Dwarves do not need to look for magic items in the surfice, they make them by using lyrium, the best weapons and armors are dwarven made.

[Estelindis]

Fair enough, then, I stand corrected!

[Herr Uhl]

Huntress wrote...

Dwarves don't have mages but they don't need them either, they extract the lyrium and can forge it to what ever they want, Dwarves have smith of all type not just weapons and armor they have lyrium workers, this workers make the lyrium spells like the one in orzammar (Garin is one of them) of course is more profitable to sell it to the chantry who is more than happy to give it to the templars to consume forgetting how dangerous it is.

Dwarves do not need to look for magic items in the surfice, they make them by using lyrium, the best weapons and armors are dwarven made.

Where did you get this from. Anyways, selling lyrium to topsiders isn't a new habit, the golden city incident was fueled by lyrium in a large part.

[Inprea]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Dwarves don't have mages but they don't need them either, they extract the lyrium and can forge it to what ever they want, Dwarves have smith of all type not just weapons and armor they have lyrium workers, this workers make the lyrium spells like the one in orzammar (Garin is one of them) of course is more profitable to sell it to the chantry who is more than happy to give it to the templars to consume forgetting how dangerous it is.

Dwarves do not need to look for magic items in the surfice, they make them by using lyrium, the best weapons and armors are dwarven made.

Where did you get this from. Anyways, selling lyrium to topsiders isn't a new habit, the golden city incident was fueled by lyrium in a large part.

Strait fron dragon age wiki.

Processed lyrium is used by dwarves and the Tranquil to enchant items. The Circle of Magi also uses it to mentally travel to the Fade in an aware state.


From the codex about lyrium

The dwarves sell very little of the processed mineral to the surface,
giving the greater portion of what they mine to their own smiths, who
use it in the forging of all truly superior dwarven weapons and armor.

There is also the conversation with Bodan at the beginning of Dragon age 2 whenever you ask him about Sandal being an enchanter and he mentions that it takes the smiths of Orzimmar many many years to master the trade but his son is a savant beyond compare.

I swear the number of people who think only the tranquil can work with lyrium is staggering. It makes me think you don't even bother reading the codex or listening to what the characters are actually saying.

[Herr Uhl]

Where Huntress got the "forgetting how dangerous it is" part from.

[Inprea]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Where Huntress got the "forgetting how dangerous it is" part from.

Okay that's a bit different. I don't believe huntress thinks they've actually forgotten how dangerous lyrium is. However, often the templars seem to ignore how dangerous lyrium is and abuse it rather heavily. It's like some narcotics I imagine. You know that it's probably going to end up killing you but you can't stop because you "need it".

One thing I'm not entirely certain on is whether the Chantry just uses lyrium as a control mechanism or if they really do need it. If you speak to Alister in dragon age origins it seems like templars don't actually need lyrium it's just used as a hook to insure they don't leave or insure control. However, reading through the warrior abilities in dragon age two they have things along the lines of.

The lyrium infusing the templar's blood protects the templar from the
Fade's influence. The templar gains resistance to all forms of hostile
magic.

Which makes it sound like they are some true benefits to them taking lyrium. That said it doesn't tell us how much lyrium is required to actually gain such benefits and when it begins to deviate into abuse. I'm lead to believe by some of the happenings that many templars take more then what is actually required and thus accelerate their own rate of degradation.

This is of course the difference between taking you perscribed dosage and abusing a substance. The templars really need a doctor to handle the despensing of lyrium responsibly. You can't exactly trust addicts to do so themselves.

[dragonflight288]

At Ostagar in Origins, if you talk to the Tranquil there, he mentions that enchantment was a skill the tranquil learned from the dwarves, because dwarves were the ones to first practice them.

[Huntress]

Herr Uhl wrote...

Huntress wrote...

Dwarves don't have mages but they don't need them either, they extract the lyrium and can forge it to what ever they want, Dwarves have smith of all type not just weapons and armor they have lyrium workers, this workers make the lyrium spells like the one in orzammar (Garin is one of them) of course is more profitable to sell it to the chantry who is more than happy to give it to the templars to consume forgetting how dangerous it is.

Dwarves do not need to look for magic items in the surfice, they make them by using lyrium, the best weapons and armors are dwarven made.

Where did you get this from. Anyways, selling lyrium to topsiders isn't a new habit, the golden city incident was fueled by lyrium in a large part.

I never said anywere that selling Lyrium is new, read again.

And about templars and lyrium:
Lyrium is used by the Chantry to control the templars: templars are given lyrium to "develop their talents" (though Alistair
seems to doubt whether it actually has any real effect), which also
leaves them addicted and thus within the control of the Chantry, which
controls the lyrium trade.


In its processed form, lyrium may be handled by anyone, but long term
exposure or a single mistake while working with it can lead to serious
side effects such as emotional instability or complete psychosis.


The smiths of Amgarrak, under the jurisdiction of a Tevinter mage, created strange contraptions known as Lyrium Wells, capable of shifting objects and people through different levels of the Fade and creating Runic Golems. However, this was used against them when one of their experiments created a monstrosity capable of manipulating the Wells. After realizing what their creation was capable of, the smiths were forced to seal the thaig to make sure that it wouldn't be able to escape.


Want to read some more?
http://dragonage.wikia.com/wiki/Lyrium

All i wanted to say more or less is dwarves make magic armors/weapon and runes they do not need to go to the surfice or rent a mage for that.

Amgarrak:
Amgarrak is an ancient dwarven thaig hidden in the Deep Roads. In the dwarven tongue, Amgarrak means "Victory"

Modifié par Huntress, 07 novembre 2011 - 12:56 .

[Herr Uhl]

I don't think any of that said why the Chantry is unaware of the effects of lyrium according to you.

Please, try to answer my question. The other was just to say that there are others that use lyrium than templars and that it isn't the chantry that initiated the trade.

[AlexXIV]

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't think any of that said why the Chantry is unaware of the effects of lyrium according to you.

Please, try to answer my question. The other was just to say that there are others that use lyrium than templars and that it isn't the chantry that initiated the trade.

I don't think she ever said that the Chantry is unaware of the effects of lyrium. Actually, how couldn't they know?

[Herr Uhl]

AlexXIV wrote...

Herr Uhl wrote...

I don't think any of that said why the Chantry is unaware of the effects of lyrium according to you.

Please, try to answer my question. The other was just to say that there are others that use lyrium than templars and that it isn't the chantry that initiated the trade.

I don't think she ever said that the Chantry is unaware of the effects of lyrium. Actually, how couldn't they know?

"of course is more profitable to sell it to the chantry who is more than happy to give it to the templars to consume forgetting how dangerous it is."

I'm not sure how I'm supposed to read that as anything else. It confuses me too.

[General User]

The Chantry was more concerned about the Templars being the most effective anti-mage force possible than they were about the long term health of individual Templars or even templars in general.

[Xilizhra]

General User wrote...

The Chantry was more concerned about the Templars being the most effective anti-mage force possible than they were about the long term health of individual Templars or even templars in general.

The Chantry may be more equally horrible than some realize.