113 réponses à ce sujet

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

uuuh dictatorship... Like the Viscountcy ALREADY were... How dare she impose DICTATORSHIP on an already DICTATORIAL Viscountcy!..... Transparrent rethoric is tranparrent...

The new Viscount is supposed to be elected. Meredith wasn't elected to be the new Viscount, she assumed control through her position as Knight-Commander, she has a death squad, and she has caused unrest to the point where civilians and nobles are supporting Hawke if the Champion publicly denounces her dictatorship, and even mages and templars are working together to oust her from power.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The way the politics of Kirkwall works, allowed her to block the election of a new Viscount, and for her to rule in the absense of a Viscount. Which is not at all disallowed anywhere in any of the laws we have acces to. She has the biggest stick, she is in charge, she was in charge even while there was a Viscount, so I really don't see the big deal.

You mean Meredith can do so because she has the largest army in Kirkwall, not because she has any political right to block the election of a new Viscount.

General User wrote...

I wasn't trying to dismiss dismiss the fact that Grand Cleric is second only to the Divine, just the opposite in fact.  Elthina's position in Kirkwall society is such that almost everyone, save those who lack in social graces, would bow to her.

Regardless of how you interpret the templars bowing to her right after she orders them to escort Orsino "gently" to the Gallows, she is Meredith's superior, as the highest ranking member of the Chantry - the same organization that controls the lyrium that the templars are dependent on.

General User wrote...

Does Kirkwall have a constitution?  If not, then the only way to establish illegality is via precedent. 

Under the reasoning, slavery wouldn't be illegal in Ferelden and other parts of Thedas, but it clearly is (given what was stated at the Landsmeet, when the slavery of the elves is brought up by The Warden).
 

General User wrote...

As I recall Marlowe Dumar served as Viscount at the Templars sufferance after the Order ousted his predesessor.  As much as anyone might like to say that Kirkwall should follow it's tradition of electing a new Viscount from the ranks of the nobility, the precedent is also established that the Viscount's seat is the Order's to do with as they please.

You mean Marlowe Dumar was under the threat of losing his position as Viscount due to Meredith being Knight-Commander and having the largest army in the city-state.

General User wrote...

And well supported by people who want Meredith to remain in power or even take over the city officially.  Including commoners, nobles, and the vast majority of her own templars.

You mean the same "vast majority" that is willing to follow Knight-Captain Cullen against her? You mean the same commoners and nobles who tell Hawke that Meredith needs to be removed, including the nobles who specifically tell Hawke they will ally with him against the Knight-Commander? With one noble turning against the coalition of nobles by siding with Meredith, who can be promptly killed and is no longer an issue once he's dead?

General User wrote...

No.  It's assuming a role beyond the scope of their duties, nothing more and nothing less.

Considering their role is to watch over mages and capture apostates, ruling over ordinary civilians is certainly a little more than exceeding the scope of their duties, especially when the developers acknowledged why the noble templar Irminric (who was imprisoned at Arl Howe's dungeon), would need to leave the Order in order to assume his position of nobility had his sister, Bann Alfstanna, perished.

[LobselVith8]

esper wrote...

Meridith and all the nobles know that Hawke is a mage by the end of act two (allthough the blood mage thing is unknown even by your own group. Specalization regonation is my first wish for da3). Meridith is just not politically suicidial and put a different leash on Hawke by tolerating him/hers magic as long as they are the champion and protect the city. She directly says that if you refuse to do on the loose. However,if Hawke was to be vicount neither Meridith nor the chantry in Orlais would have accepted that.
Appenrently Gaider have even admitted that Vicount Hawke if siding with the templars was a mistake born from there only being two endings that doesn't take class into account, but if we don't speak in what should have been. Meridith was dead when Hawke is Vicount. If she wasn't hawke wouldn't have been vicount. And by the time Hawke is named Vicount the chantry is too busy with revolting mages and rebelling templars to have the recoursces to deal with a mage on the throne.

I'm curious about this, because The Warden can become the Teyrn of Gwaren even if he's a mage, and despite being a mage, he (or she) can become the new Warden-Commander and Arl of Amaranthine. Did he address the difference between the Chantry turning a blind eye towards the Hero of Ferelden (whether he becomes the new Teyrn or simply the new Arl), and not for a pro-templar apostate Hawke?

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Regardless of how you interpret the templars bowing to her right after she orders them to escort Orsino "gently" to the Gallows, she is Meredith's superior, as the highest ranking member of the Chantry - the same organization that controls the lyrium that the templars are dependent on.

Imagine that she did.  Imagine the otherwise decent Elthina attempted the arguably monstrous course of attempting to withhold lyrium from the Templars as part of a play to force them to support her in the removal of the Knight-Commander.  How do you propose she enforce any of that? 

What's to stop Meredith from going over Elthina's head and appealing directly to the Divine? 

What's to stop Meredith from "securing the Grand Cleric for her own safety in light of obvious bloodmage influence" (ie, launch a coup in the Chantry)? 

And what about the absolute chaos that would cause for Kirkwall? 

Besides, hold a blade to someone's throat and you have their loyalty only until your arm gets tired.

An army of Templars occupying the city is a bad thing; an army of desperate and/or resentful Templars occupying the city would be a VERY bad thing.

LobselVith8 wrote...

General User wrote...
Does Kirkwall have a constitution?  If not, then the only way to establish illegality is via precedent.

Under the reasoning, slavery wouldn't be illegal in Ferelden and other parts of Thedas, but it clearly is (given what was stated at the Landsmeet, when the slavery of the elves is brought up by The Warden).

Constitutional and criminal law are different things.  Constitutional law (even in States which have no codified constitution) is the body of law that deals with the organization of the State and the State's relationship to other entities in society.  Criminal law is the body of law that defines what is and is not legal and illegal.  Slavery is illegal in Ferelden because Ferelden has laws banning slavery, a criminal matter.  In Kirkwall, the precedent has been set that the Viscount's seat is filled when, where, how, and by who the Templar Order feels is appropriate, a constitutional matter.

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean Marlowe Dumar was under the threat of losing his position as Viscount due to Meredith being Knight-Commander and having the largest army in the city-state.

Yes.  Exactly!

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean the same "vast majority" that is willing to follow Knight-Captain Cullen against her?

Remember, the Templar Order followed Meredith until she turned against Hawke.  Not because they bore the Champion any great love, but because it took a first-hand demonstration for them to realize just how far gone Meredith really was.  If Hawke had been the one to turn against Meredith first, if Hawke had been the one to force her hand, things might have gone very differently.

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean the same commoners and nobles who tell Hawke that Meredith needs to be removed, including the nobles who specifically tell Hawke they will ally with him against the Knight-Commander? With one noble turning against the coalition of nobles by siding with Meredith, who can be promptly killed and is no longer an issue once he's dead?

All regimes have disgruntled elements that can be galvanized against them.  The nobles who contacted Hawke surreptitiously in A Noble Agenda did not, iirc, claim to represent anyone beyond themselves. 

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering their role is to watch over mages and capture apostates, ruling over ordinary civilians is certainly a little more than exceeding the scope of their duties,

And that "a little more" would be… what?

Modifié par General User, 08 novembre 2011 - 09:29 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

Imagine that she did.  Imagine the otherwise decent Elthina attempted the arguably monstrous course of attempting to withhold lyrium from the Templars as part of a play to force them to support her in the removal of the Knight-Commander.  How do you propose she enforce any of that? 

Appeal to the Divine and address that the Knight-Commander has gotten out of control, and is causing the local populace to turn against the Order of Templars (which is addressed by Knight-Captain Cullen as early as Act I, prior to Meredith's death squad).

General User wrote...

What's to stop Meredith from going over Elthina's head and appealing directly to the Divine? 

Grand Cleric Elthina should have appealed to the Divine about Meredith being out of control before the Knight-Commander sent out her death squad.

General User wrote...

What's to stop Meredith from "securing the Grand Cleric for her own safety in light of obvious bloodmage influence" (ie, launch a coup in the Chantry)? 

That certainly didn't stop Cullen from turning against Meredith when he wanted to save Hawke's life. If Elthina isn't capable of doing her job, she shouldn't have been Grand Cleric.

General User wrote...

And what about the absolute chaos that would cause for Kirkwall? 

Replacing Meredith would have likely prevented the chaos that followed. Having someone more balanced, like Knight-Commander Greagoir, would have prevented the insanity that followed with Knight-Commander Meredith being in charge of the Kirkwall Order of Templars.
 

General User wrote...

Besides, hold a blade to someone's throat and you have their loyalty only until your arm gets tired.

An army of Templars occupying the city is a bad thing; an army of desperate and/or resentful Templars occupying the city would be a VERY bad thing.

Removing the dictator who is causing unrest among so many groups would be a good thing.

General User wrote...

Constitutional and criminal law are different things.  Constitutional law (even in States which have no codified constitution) is the body of law that deals with the organization of the State and the State's relationship to other entities in society.  Criminal law is the body of law that defines what is and is not legal and illegal.  Slavery is illegal in Ferelden because Ferelden has laws banning slavery, a criminal matter.  In Kirkwall, the precedent has been set that the Viscount's seat is filled when, where, how, and by who the Templar Order feels is appropriate, a constitutional matter.

Not officially, only unofficially, which is what Hawke is told by Seneschal Bran.

General User wrote...

Remember, the Templar Order followed Meredith until she turned against Hawke.  Not because they bore the Champion any great love, but because it took a first-hand demonstration for them to realize just how far gone Meredith really was.  If Hawke had been the one to turn against Meredith first, if Hawke had been the one to force her hand, things might have gone very differently.

A pro-mage Hawke who is killing templars to protect the mages already turned against Meredith.

General User wrote...

All regimes have disgruntled elements that can be galvanized against them.  The nobles who contacted Hawke surreptitiously in A Noble Agenda did not, iirc, claim to represent anyone beyond themselves. 

It doesn't help when the de facto Viscount has a death squad murdering civilians.

General User wrote...

And that "a little more" would be… what?

Besides the developer who addressed that a templar needed to leave the Order in order to assume a political position when addressing Irminric's nobility, and the possibility of replacing Bann Alfstanna? Since Meredith didn't leave the Order of Templars to become the de facto Viscount, I don't see the difference.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Appeal to the Divine and address that the Knight-Commander has gotten out of control, and is causing the local populace to turn against the Order of Templars (which is addressed by Knight-Captain Cullen as early as Act I, prior to Meredith's death squad).

Grand Cleric Elthina should have appealed to the Divine about Meredith being out of control before the Knight-Commander sent out her death squad.

The thing about appealing to the Divine is that unless Elthina can bring the Divine something besides "in many peoples opinion Meredith has been exceeding her mandate as Knight-Commander" there's no way to be sure the Divine won't side with Meredith.

LobselVith8 wrote...
That certainly didn't stop Cullen from turning against Meredith when he wanted to save Hawke's life. If Elthina isn't capable of doing her job, she shouldn't have been Grand Cleric.

That's the conflict of Elthina's character.  She's trying to keep the peace in a situation where keeping the peace may well be impossible.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Replacing Meredith would have likely prevented the chaos that followed. Having someone more balanced, like Knight-Commander Greagoir, would have prevented the insanity that followed with Knight-Commander Meredith being in charge of the Kirkwall Order of Templars.

Prevented (or maybe just delayed) the Mage Rebellion, but by Act III you can't get there without tremendous cost and damage to Kirkwall.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Removing the dictator who is causing unrest among so many groups would be a good thing.

The unrest is a symptom of the reason she should be removed (ie her growing madness) not a reason for her removal.

LobselVith8 wrote...
A pro-mage Hawke who is killing templars to protect the mages already turned against Meredith.

Not quite.  In that scenario it's Anders and Meredith who forced events to come to a head, by blowing up the Chantry and by deciding to annul the circle respectively.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It doesn't help when the de facto Viscount has a death squad murdering civilians.

Death squads seldom help anything.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Besides the developer who addressed that a templar needed to leave the Order in order to assume a political position when addressing Irminric's nobility, and the possibility of replacing Bann Alfstanna? Since Meredith didn't leave the Order of Templars to become the de facto Viscount, I don't see the difference.

The difference is that Meredith rationalized her decision to take over Kirkwall as being an imperative of her duties as Knight-Commander.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Appeal to the Divine and address that the Knight-Commander has gotten out of control, and is causing the local populace to turn against the Order of Templars (which is addressed by Knight-Captain Cullen as early as Act I, prior to Meredith's death squad).

Grand Cleric Elthina should have appealed to the Divine about Meredith being out of control before the Knight-Commander sent out her death squad. [/quote]

The thing about appealing to the Divine is that unless Elthina can bring the Divine something besides "in many peoples opinion Meredith has been exceeding her mandate as Knight-Commander" there's no way to be sure the Divine won't side with Meredith. [/quote]

Considering the fact that the unrest in Kirkwall seems to be sufficient enough to cause the Divine to consider an Exalted March against the city-state, let's simply agree to disagree.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

That certainly didn't stop Cullen from turning against Meredith when he wanted to save Hawke's life. If Elthina isn't capable of doing her job, she shouldn't have been Grand Cleric. [/quote]

That's the conflict of Elthina's character.  She's trying to keep the peace in a situation where keeping the peace may well be impossible. [/quote]

I don't see Grand Cleric Elthina trying to keep the peace. She doesn't get involved - even when Hawke brings to her attention that members of her organization are using her name to sanction violence against the Qunari.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Replacing Meredith would have likely prevented the chaos that followed. Having someone more balanced, like Knight-Commander Greagoir, would have prevented the insanity that followed with Knight-Commander Meredith being in charge of the Kirkwall Order of Templars. [/quote]

Prevented (or maybe just delayed) the Mage Rebellion, but by Act III you can't get there without tremendous cost and damage to Kirkwall. [/quote]

I think things could have changed dramatically if a competent and sane Knight-Commander replaced Meredith.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Removing the dictator who is causing unrest among so many groups would be a good thing. [/quote]

The unrest is a symptom of the reason she should be removed (ie her growing madness) not a reason for her removal. [/quote]

Considering her top templars are sadists, rapists, and murders, not to mention the death squad and the unrest that has lead to templars working together with mages to remove her from power, let's simply agree to disagree.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

A pro-mage Hawke who is killing templars to protect the mages already turned against Meredith.[/quote]

Not quite.  In that scenario it's Anders and Meredith who forced events to come to a head, by blowing up the Chantry and by deciding to annul the circle respectively. [/quote]

Hawke clearly goes against Meredith, and remains at the side of the mages during the later confrontation at the Gallows between Meredith and Orsino (prior to the attack by the templars). Hawke already chooses to side against Meredith to protect hundreds of mages. Hawke - the Champion of Kirkwall - has gone against Meredith when he sides against her to protect the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall, and Anders doesn't even need to factor into this because he can be killed immediately after the initial confrontation.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Besides the developer who addressed that a templar needed to leave the Order in order to assume a political position when addressing Irminric's nobility, and the possibility of replacing Bann Alfstanna? Since Meredith didn't leave the Order of Templars to become the de facto Viscount, I don't see the difference. [/quote]

The difference is that Meredith rationalized her decision to take over Kirkwall as being an imperative of her duties as Knight-Commander.[/quote]

Going from governing the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall to ruling over the entire city-state of Kirkwall, and causing such unrest that even Cullen notes that people are siding with mages over templars?

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering the fact that the unrest in Kirkwall seems to be sufficient enough to cause the Divine to consider an Exalted March against the city-state, let's simply agree to disagree.

The "unrest" that lead the Divine to contemplate an Exalted March against Kirkwall was a great deal more than the resistance to Meredith's delaying the seating of a new Viscount, mainly bloodmage and demonic influence.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I don't see Grand Cleric Elthina trying to keep the peace. She doesn't get involved - even when Hawke brings to her attention that members of her organization are using her name to sanction violence against the Qunari.

If one cannot fight the fire, one is still wise to avoid adding fuel.

LobselVith8 wrote...
I think things could have changed dramatically if a competent and sane Knight-Commander replaced Meredith.

Varric blamed three things for touching off the Mage Rebellion: Anders, Meredith, and "that damn idol."  I agree with the dwarf.  Taking one or even two factors out of the mix only does so much.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Considering her top templars are sadists, rapists, and murders, not to mention the death squad and the unrest that has lead to templars working together with mages to remove her from power, let's simply agree to disagree.

The fact that Meredith is rapidly descending into madness has lead to Templars working together with mages to remove her from power.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Hawke clearly goes against Meredith, and remains at the side of the mages during the later confrontation at the Gallows between Meredith and Orsino (prior to the attack by the templars). Hawke already chooses to side against Meredith to protect hundreds of mages. Hawke - the Champion of Kirkwall - has gone against Meredith when he sides against her to protect the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall, and Anders doesn't even need to factor into this because he can be killed immediately after the initial confrontation.

It's not that cut and dry.  When it comes to making important and difficult decisions like the one Cullen and the Templars made at the end of Act III, things like: who or what is driving the situation, who is the provoker, and who is the provoked, etc. are important factors.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Going from governing the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall to ruling over the entire city-state of Kirkwall, and causing such unrest that even Cullen notes that people are siding with mages over templars?

Yes.  As I said, unrest is a symptom of  a greater disorder.

[LobselVith8]

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering the fact that the unrest in Kirkwall seems to be sufficient enough to cause the Divine to consider an Exalted March against the city-state, let's simply agree to disagree. [/quote]

The "unrest" that lead the Divine to contemplate an Exalted March against Kirkwall was a great deal more than the resistance to Meredith's delaying the seating of a new Viscount, mainly bloodmage and demonic influence. [/quote]

According to whom? The civilians and nobles who tell a pro-mage Hawke that Meredith needs to be removed? The nobles who personally assure Hawke that they will work to aid the Champion in ousting her from power? The mages working with the templars under Ser Thrask who seek Meredith's removal? Even Leliana - as Sister Nightingale - specifically admits that she doesn't know the cause of the "unrest" in Kirkwall, but the narrative constantly informs us that there's unrest due to Meredith's dictatorship as the de facto Viscount.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I don't see Grand Cleric Elthina trying to keep the peace. She doesn't get involved - even when Hawke brings to her attention that members of her organization are using her name to sanction violence against the Qunari. [/quote]

If one cannot fight the fire, one is still wise to avoid adding fuel. [/quote]

If Grand Cleric Elthina couldn't perform her job and refuses to do anything about members of her organization using her name to incite violence and murder people, then she should have stepped down.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

I think things could have changed dramatically if a competent and sane Knight-Commander replaced Meredith. [/quote]

Varric blamed three things for touching off the Mage Rebellion: Anders, Meredith, and "that damn idol."  I agree with the dwarf.  Taking one or even two factors out of the mix only does so much. [/quote]

Anders doesn't seem to have a problem with Ser Thrask having mages and templars working together to remove Knight-Commander Meredith. Alain, who is a rape victim of templars, admits he wanted things to change, and had decided to work with Thrask to see Meredith removed. Considering Meredith became a dictator for three years, and Anders' attack against the Kirkwall Chantry happened towards the conclusion of Act III, I think a competent and sane Knight-Commander would have changed everything.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering her top templars are sadists, rapists, and murders, not to mention the death squad and the unrest that has lead to templars working together with mages to remove her from power, let's simply agree to disagree. [/quote]

The fact that Meredith is rapidly descending into madness has lead to Templars working together with mages to remove her from power. [/quote]

Meredith had sadists, rapists, and murderers working for her prior to the Lyrium Idol - Kerras, Alrik, and the female templar who tortured a da'len hunter to get Feynriel on behalf of Meredith. I'd imagine things wouldn't have escalated as badly had someone more competent - like Greagoir - been in charge of the Kirkwall Order of Templars.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Hawke clearly goes against Meredith, and remains at the side of the mages during the later confrontation at the Gallows between Meredith and Orsino (prior to the attack by the templars). Hawke already chooses to side against Meredith to protect hundreds of mages. Hawke - the Champion of Kirkwall - has gone against Meredith when he sides against her to protect the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall, and Anders doesn't even need to factor into this because he can be killed immediately after the initial confrontation. [/quote]

It's not that cut and dry.  When it comes to making important and difficult decisions like the one Cullen and the Templars made at the end of Act III, things like: who or what is driving the situation, who is the provoker, and who is the provoked, etc. are important factors. [/quote]

It's clearly evident when the question comes down to: has Hawke sided against Meredith? The answer is yes.

[quote]General User wrote...

[quote]LobselVith8 wrote...

Going from governing the mages of the Circle of Kirkwall to ruling over the entire city-state of Kirkwall, and causing such unrest that even Cullen notes that people are siding with mages over templars? [/quote]

Yes.  As I said, unrest is a symptom of  a greater disorder. [/quote]

A dictatorship where the election process is halted and people are getting killed by the death squad will do that.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
According to whom? The civilians and nobles who tell a pro-mage Hawke that Meredith needs to be removed? The nobles who personally assure Hawke that they will work to aid the Champion in ousting her from power? The mages working with the templars under Ser Thrask who seek Meredith's removal? Even Leliana - as Sister Nightingale - specifically admits that she doesn't know the cause of the "unrest" in Kirkwall, but the narrative constantly informs us that there's unrest due to Meredith's dictatorship as the de facto Viscount.

The Divine is concerned about the state of Kirkwall, Templar takeover and bloodmage influence included.  Leliana makes it very clear that if things are not put right very soon, then the Divine will take things into her own hands, ie an Exalted March.

LobselVith8 wrote...
If Grand Cleric Elthina couldn't perform her job and refuses to do anything about members of her organization using her name to incite violence and murder people, then she should have stepped down.

IIRC Elthina remanded the woman who misused her seal and that same woman was killed mere minutes later.

LobselVith8 wrote...
Anders doesn't seem to have a problem with Ser Thrask having mages and templars working together to remove Knight-Commander Meredith. Alain, who is a rape victim of templars, admits he wanted things to change, and had decided to work with Thrask to see Meredith removed. Considering Meredith became a dictator for three years, and Anders' attack against the Kirkwall Chantry happened towards the conclusion of Act III, I think a competent and sane Knight-Commander would have changed everything.

Then you're missing a major theme of Dragon Age II: how any motivation no matter how noble (be it Ander/Justice's desire for mage freedom, or Meredith's desire for stability and security, or Merrill's desire to restore the eluvian) can turn to madness and death when taken to extremes.

LobselVith8 wrote...
It's clearly evident when the question comes down to: has Hawke sided against Meredith? The answer is yes.

That question is only part of the issue at hand: namely the "why" of the situation.  "Why" matters.

LobselVith8 wrote...
A dictatorship where the election process is halted and people are getting killed by the death squad will do that.

Dictatorships and death squads lead to unrest?!?  No.  Really?  Are you sure?  I thought they lead to puppy dogs and sunshine!

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

If Grand Cleric Elthina couldn't perform her job and refuses to do anything about members of her organization using her name to incite violence and murder people, then she should have stepped down.

IIRC Elthina remanded the woman who misused her seal and that same woman was killed mere minutes later.

You mean she ignored Hawke when she brought it up, and only dealt with the matter when the Viscount's son was lying dead on the floor of the Chantry, which wouldn't have happened had she done something sooner.

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

Anders doesn't seem to have a problem with Ser Thrask having mages and templars working together to remove Knight-Commander Meredith. Alain, who is a rape victim of templars, admits he wanted things to change, and had decided to work with Thrask to see Meredith removed. Considering Meredith became a dictator for three years, and Anders' attack against the Kirkwall Chantry happened towards the conclusion of Act III, I think a competent and sane Knight-Commander would have changed everything.

Then you're missing a major theme of Dragon Age II: how any motivation no matter how noble (be it Ander/Justice's desire for mage freedom, or Meredith's desire for stability and security, or Merrill's desire to restore the eluvian) can turn to madness and death when taken to extremes.

I don't see that as a major theme of Dragon Age 2, especially when Marethari's actions are her own responsibility. Merrill isn't responsible for Marethari letting Audacity loose of her own volition, she risks her own life for technology that she believes can help the People. In fact, I'd argue that Hawke being passive is a major theme of Dragon Age 2.

[General User]

LobselVith8 wrote...
You mean she ignored Hawke when she brought it up, and only dealt with the matter when the Viscount's son was lying dead on the floor of the Chantry, which wouldn't have happened had she done something sooner.

What did Elthina ignore form Hawke?  That there were extremist elements within the Chantry plotting to provoke the qunari?  How would you propose she go about routing those elements out?  What would you have her do?  

LobselVith8 wrote...
In fact, I'd argue that Hawke being passive is a major theme of Dragon Age 2.

I's good that you picked up on that.  Believe me when I say that there's more to the story.

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

You mean she ignored Hawke when she brought it up, and only dealt with the matter when the Viscount's son was lying dead on the floor of the Chantry, which wouldn't have happened had she done something sooner.

What did Elthina ignore form Hawke?  That there were extremist elements within the Chantry plotting to provoke the qunari?  How would you propose she go about routing those elements out?  What would you have her do? 

Elthina didn't deal with the fact that a member of her organization was using her seal to sanction kidnapping and murder. Elthina didn't do anything when Hawke brought this to her attention. Considering that Hawke knows that Sister Petrice is involved, and Viscount Dumar is investigating Sister Petrice's involvement in the killing of the Qunari delegates, dealing with Sister Petrice should been a priority, instead of doing nothing until the Viscount's son was murdered in the Kirkwall Chantry.

[General User]

Elthina remanded the woman who misused her seal as soon as she found about about it.

Modifié par General User, 09 novembre 2011 - 07:11 .

[LobselVith8]

General User wrote...

Elthina remanded the woman who misused her seal as soon as she found about about it.

No, Grand Cleric Elthina did nothing about it when Hawke brings up that her seal is being used, which can be done right after speaking to Sister Petrice about Ser Varnell. It takes the death of Viscount Marlowe Dumar's son Saemus to finally have something done about Sister Petrice.