33 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

lol Yeah, I'm playing Awakening again and I noticed a couple of things.

When arguing with Wynne over the Cumberland thing with Anders in the party(he's vocal and actually says that mages cant just leave the Chantry), she says you cannot force a change, and the Warden can say then it will never happen. Which is exactly what Anders does later.

Not to mention the Warden is the one who welcomed Justice into the wardens and introduced Anders to him.

[esper]

Warden being a bad influce depent on the warden of the player, I guess...

[dragonflight288]

It wasn't the Warden who let Templar's into the Warden's to keep an eye on Anders though. I got that from Ander's personal story.

I think most of his dramatic personality changes came after the Warden left and he was feeling betrayed by the Warden's for allowing the Chantry a foothold in the organization to watch him.

[AlexXIV]

esper wrote...

Warden being a bad influce depent on the warden of the player, I guess...

Aye. My Warden is perfect. A paragon. A beacon of hope. I have no idea how Anders could be inspired by my warden to blow up Chantries.

[LobselVith8]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

lol Yeah, I'm playing Awakening again and I noticed a couple of things.

When arguing with Wynne over the Cumberland thing with Anders in the party(he's vocal and actually says that mages cant just leave the Chantry), she says you cannot force a change, and the Warden can say then it will never happen. Which is exactly what Anders does later.

Not to mention the Warden is the one who welcomed Justice into the wardens and introduced Anders to him. 

It's a possibility, if The Warden argues along those lines (with Anders present). That's precisely the argument that my Surana Warden made when Wynne brought up the meeting at Cumberland - he said that the Circles of Magi need to emancipate themselves from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars (which made sense since he asked Queen Anora to free his people from the Chantry), and Wynne made the argument that the Chantry would rather kill all the mages than see them free. I'd speculate that Anders had the same view as Senior Enchanter Wynne did when he had that outburst. My Warden-Commander stated that the Circles would never be free if they followed Wynne's advice, which lead to her giving up on the argument entirely and moving on to Ines.

As a matter of fact, I'd imagine that it's possible that the royal boon for the Circle of Ferelden might play a role for the meeting at Cumberland, since Knight-Commander Meredith implies it's had an impact among the other mages in the Circles of Magi when she confronted King Alistair (despite the Chantry refusing my Surana Warden's request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence).

I'd also suggest that Nathaniel had quite a bit of influence on Justice when he possessed Kristoff, which seems to have lead to his symbiosis with Anders (if Nathaniel Howe was spared, of course).

[LobselVith8]

dragonflight288 wrote...

It wasn't the Warden who let Templar's into the Warden's to keep an eye on Anders though. I got that from Ander's personal story.

I think most of his dramatic personality changes came after the Warden left and he was feeling betrayed by the Warden's for allowing the Chantry a foothold in the organization to watch him.

Is the short story supposed to happen if Anders remained with The Warden? This line from the short story makes me think otherwise:

"The price I had to pay for the Grey Wardens' generosity in recruiting me out from under the templars' noses."

I wonder if we're not supposed to assume it's a universe (reality) where The Warden refused to accept Anders into the Grey Wardens (or where The Warden made the sacrifice against the Archdemon), and Anders escaped and joined with another group of Wardens (with Rolan being the condition for his acceptance). Without the Hero of Ferelden, I could see the Grey Wardens being relatively 'weak' in Ferelden, because of Warden Sophia Dryden's rebellion centuries ago and the massacre at the Battle of Ostagar.

I suspect it's the type of deal that Stroud might have made, if he was in Ferelden at the time. I have trouble accepting the idea that the Chantry would have any amount of leverage against the Hero of Ferelden shortly after the templar Rylock was killed trying to murder the Hero of Ferelden and Anders. Even if the Hero of Ferelden is a mage, the people view The Warden as being "blessed by the Maker" (according to Queen Anora), not to mention the degree of power that The Warden can wield as the new Arl of Amaranthine (with his own army, his own city, and his own arling) and as the new Commander of the Grey.

In fact, there's no bounty against the apostate Morrigan in Witch Hunt when the protagonist of the story is The Warden, which can be inferred to be a result of the Hero of Ferelden, when the templars otherwise place a reward for her in the Orlesian Warden run of Witch Hunt.

[ReallyRue]

LobselVith8 wrote...

dragonflight288 wrote...

It wasn't the Warden who let Templar's into the Warden's to keep an eye on Anders though. I got that from Ander's personal story.

I think most of his dramatic personality changes came after the Warden left and he was feeling betrayed by the Warden's for allowing the Chantry a foothold in the organization to watch him.

Is the short story supposed to happen if Anders remained with The Warden? This line from the short story makes me think otherwise:

"The price I had to pay for the Grey Wardens' generosity in recruiting me out from under the templars' noses."

I wonder if we're not supposed to assume it's a universe (reality) where The Warden refused to accept Anders into the Grey Wardens (or where The Warden made the sacrifice against the Archdemon), and Anders escaped and joined with another group of Wardens (with Rolan being the condition for his acceptance). Without the Hero of Ferelden, I could see the Grey Wardens being relatively 'weak' in Ferelden, because of Warden Sophia Dryden's rebellion centuries ago and the massacre at the Battle of Ostagar.

I suspect it's the type of deal that Stroud might have made, if he was in Ferelden at the time. I have trouble accepting the idea that the Chantry would have any amount of leverage against the Hero of Ferelden shortly after the templar Rylock was killed trying to murder the Hero of Ferelden and Anders. Even if the Hero of Ferelden is a mage, the people view The Warden as being "blessed by the Maker" (according to Queen Anora), not to mention the degree of power that The Warden can wield as the new Arl of Amaranthine (with his own army, his own city, and his own arling) and as the new Commander of the Grey.

In fact, there's no bounty against the apostate Morrigan in Witch Hunt when the protagonist of the story is The Warden, which can be inferred to be a result of the Hero of Ferelden, when the templars otherwise place a reward for her in the Orlesian Warden run of Witch Hunt.

Are they just templars? I thought they were supposed to be templars inducted into the Wardens, but who didn't leave their old Chantry loyalties or whatever behind.

Personally, I could imagine that (especially with a Warden who asked for Circle independence), the important people in Warden hierarcy might agree to some templar Wardens, even if they have ulterior motives, because the Wardens try to keep out of political stuff, and the Warden's boon contradicts that (and seriously naffs off the Chantry, so they might want to avoid a direct conflict).

[LobselVith8]

ReallyRue wrote...

Are they just templars? I thought they were supposed to be templars inducted into the Wardens, but who didn't leave their old Chantry loyalties or whatever behind.

Rolan is a "former" templar inducted into the Wardens, implied to be a compromise in allowing the apostate Anders to be allowed into the Wardens.

ReallyRue wrote...

Personally, I could imagine that (especially with a Warden who asked for Circle independence), the important people in Warden hierarcy might agree to some templar Wardens, even if they have ulterior motives, because the Wardens try to keep out of political stuff, and the Warden's boon contradicts that (and seriously naffs off the Chantry, so they might want to avoid a direct conflict).

Except the Magi boon is supported by King Alistair and Queen Anora, and we know that at least King Alistair is still arguing in its favor several years after the Chantry refused it. And the Hero of Ferelden becoming the Arl of Amaranthine already involves a member of the order becoming involved in politics, which is precisely what the First Warden wants (according to Mistress Woolsey). Considering that being a mage who now has political power and command over his own military (despite it being against Chantry law) is the highest ranking member of the Grey Wardens and is a hero throughout the nation, I don't see how the Chantry could make any demand from him, especially after Rylock's murder attempt. The people of Ferelden believe he is "blessed by the Maker." His actions can lead to the salvation of the City of Amaranthine from a darkspawn incursion. Who is going to force the Hero of Ferelden to permit a templar into the Grey Wardens, when his position is supported by the new ruler of Ferelden?

The Hero of Ferelden, as the acting Warden-Commander of Ferelden, is the highest authority of the Grey Wardens in the nation. I'd imagine if the Chantry asked the new Warden-Commander - the acting Arl of Amaranthine - to permit the Warden Rolan into the Grey Wardens, he could tell them the same thing that the Chantry told him when he asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence: no.

[Gervaise]

However, remember that the Warden is ultimately answerable to the Grey Warden hierachy in the Anderfels. The Anderfels are meant to be the most devout people in Thedas and have a huge statue of Andraste carved into the rock. Whilst the Grey Wardens are indepedent of political and religious ties, the general sentiments of the populace must impact on the Wardens. So if the Chantry applied to the Chief Warden expressing concerns about the apostate Anders and asked if a templar could be recruited into the local wardens in Amaranthine, it is possible that to continue to foster good relations in the wider Thedas religious and political landscape, the Chief Warden would agree and the Hero of Ferelden would receive orders to that effect. Naturally if they sacrificed themselves and it was the Orlesian replacement, there would be no problem and probably no need to apply to the Chief Warden.

[LobselVith8]

Gervaise wrote...

However, remember that the Warden is ultimately answerable to the Grey Warden hierachy in the Anderfels. The Anderfels are meant to be the most devout people in Thedas and have a huge statue of Andraste carved into the rock. Whilst the Grey Wardens are indepedent of political and religious ties, the general sentiments of the populace must impact on the Wardens. So if the Chantry applied to the Chief Warden expressing concerns about the apostate Anders and asked if a templar could be recruited into the local wardens in Amaranthine, it is possible that to continue to foster good relations in the wider Thedas religious and political landscape, the Chief Warden would agree and the Hero of Ferelden would receive orders to that effect. Naturally if they sacrificed themselves and it was the Orlesian replacement, there would be no problem and probably no need to apply to the Chief Warden.

Except if the Chantry were able to apply any level of pressure on the First Warden concerning one single mage, why permit the Hero of Ferelden (who is a mage) to wield political power and military power as the new Arl of Amaranthine, especially when it goes against Chantry law for a mage to hold a title? Based on Mistress Woolsey's dialogue, the First Warden is concerned primarily with the success of the Warden-Commander as Arl, because it sets a precedent for the Wardens holding political power and being important even when there isn't a Blight. Based on Queen Anora's dialogue, the faithful Andrastians of Ferelden already support the Hero of Ferelden, even as a mage.

Why would the Chantry of Andraste, the Divine, or even the Grand Cleric care about Anders - one single mage - when a popular mage has taken on more political power than any mage in the history of the Andrastian nations (assuming this is the Surana or Amell Warden as the new Arl)? The only person who seemed to have issue with Anders as a member of the Grey Wardens is the templar Rylock, and she is dead.

If the Hero of Ferelden has the backing of the ruler of Ferelden, has cemented his support in the arling, and has saved the City of Amaranthine from the darkspawn, I don't see where the Chantry would be making demands from the First Warden. The Hero of Ferelden already has support from the faithful, the nation of Ferelden has a sore relationship with Orlais, and the Warden-Commander has the backing of the nation's ruler. I don't see how the Hero of Ferelden would be overruled on the matter, given how much popularity and power The Warden holds, or why the Chantry would even care about the presence of one single mage.

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Is the short story supposed to happen if Anders remained with The Warden? This line from the short story makes me think otherwise:

My impression was, the way Anders is in DA2 is supposed to be a followup from scenario in which the Warden eventually disappears and other people take over, in the long run making Anders' life with them too hard to bear.

Largely ignoring/handwaving any potential conflicts with your individual Warden's playthough, similar to Leliana thing.

[Gervaise]

The reason there might be concerns with Anders is precisely because of the Rylock thing. Why was he still trying to obtain his phylactery if he was going to stay with the Wardens in the long run? It would suggest that he was just using the Grey Wardens and would skip just as soon as he got the opportunity, which as it happened is precisely what he did do. I would imagine that Rylock would leave some record of her activities which would include references to Anders and the trap she was preparing, so when she was reported as dead, her colleagues would be able to put two and two together.

Of course we don't have to create any explanation if we ignore the short story. However, if you assume that the "canon" version has the Hero of Ferelden sacrificing themself or alternatively leaving on some extended mission during which time their Orlesian deputy brings in the templar, this gets over the difficulty.

[LobselVith8]

Gervaise wrote...

The reason there might be concerns with Anders is precisely because of the Rylock thing.

Except Rylock tried to murder The Warden and Anders, so it doesn't exactly put the Chantry in a position to enforce demands against the new Arl of Amaranthine. And unless the Arl is up front about the real reason why he went to the warehouse with Anders (since he can investigate a number of issues in his own arling), there is no evidence to support that the Arl went there with the intention of aiding in Anders obtaining his phylactery.

Considering that the short story also involves Anders brushing off swords to the chest and an appetite for human flesh, I'm not certain how accurate it's meant to be. Anders can clearly die if Hawke stabs him in the back, and we never see Justice (or Vengeance) attempt to consume the flesh of his fallen enemies. It simply seems odd to me that the Chantry would focus any significant amount of energy if Rylock is dead, and the Hero of Ferelden personally conscripted him to help deal with the crisis in Amaranthine. It makes more sense (to me) if Rylock is alive and pressing the matter with another groups of Grey Wardens who aren't governed by the Hero of Ferelden, especially if Anders escaped Rylock's wrath without support from either the Crown or the national hero.

[ReallyRue]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

Are they just templars? I thought they were supposed to be templars inducted into the Wardens, but who didn't leave their old Chantry loyalties or whatever behind.

Rolan is a "former" templar inducted into the Wardens, implied to be a compromise in allowing the apostate Anders to be allowed into the Wardens.

ReallyRue wrote...

Personally, I could imagine that (especially with a Warden who asked for Circle independence), the important people in Warden hierarcy might agree to some templar Wardens, even if they have ulterior motives, because the Wardens try to keep out of political stuff, and the Warden's boon contradicts that (and seriously naffs off the Chantry, so they might want to avoid a direct conflict).

Except the Magi boon is supported by King Alistair and Queen Anora, and we know that at least King Alistair is still arguing in its favor several years after the Chantry refused it. And the Hero of Ferelden becoming the Arl of Amaranthine already involves a member of the order becoming involved in politics, which is precisely what the First Warden wants (according to Mistress Woolsey). Considering that being a mage who now has political power and command over his own military (despite it being against Chantry law) is the highest ranking member of the Grey Wardens and is a hero throughout the nation, I don't see how the Chantry could make any demand from him, especially after Rylock's murder attempt. The people of Ferelden believe he is "blessed by the Maker." His actions can lead to the salvation of the City of Amaranthine from a darkspawn incursion. Who is going to force the Hero of Ferelden to permit a templar into the Grey Wardens, when his position is supported by the new ruler of Ferelden?

The Hero of Ferelden, as the acting Warden-Commander of Ferelden, is the highest authority of the Grey Wardens in the nation. I'd imagine if the Chantry asked the new Warden-Commander - the acting Arl of Amaranthine - to permit the Warden Rolan into the Grey Wardens, he could tell them the same thing that the Chantry told him when he asked for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence: no.

The First Warden is still higher though. And the Chantry is bigger and more powerful than just Ferelden. If he decided that a peace offering to the Chantry was necessary, then presumably the Hero of Ferelden would have to do it.

[Drone696]

LobselVith8 wrote...
...

I'd also suggest that Nathaniel had quite a bit of influence on Justice when he possessed Kristoff, which seems to have lead to his symbiosis with Anders (if Nathaniel Howe was spared, of course).

You know what? I hope Nate comes back in DA3 so we can punish him adequately. That is all. *leaves thread*

Modifié par rapunzel696, 06 novembre 2011 - 02:07 .

[tmp7704]

LobselVith8 wrote...

Considering that the short story also involves Anders brushing off swords to the chest and an appetite for human flesh, I'm not certain how accurate it's meant to be. Anders can clearly die if Hawke stabs him in the back, and we never see Justice (or Vengeance) attempt to consume the flesh of his fallen enemies.

Probably because the kill knife simply defeats everything, using the Power of Cutscene. In regular combat not only Anders but everyone else takes multiple stabs in vital organs, with little consequences.

The flesh eating thing is Justice going off the deep end, something we don't really witness in the game i think? Generally Hawke manages to turn the glowing guy off quickly enough.

[Herr Uhl]

tmp7704 wrote...

The flesh eating thing is Justice going off the deep end, something we don't really witness in the game i think? Generally Hawke manages to turn the glowing guy off quickly enough.

This maybe?

About a minute in.

[LobselVith8]

ReallyRue wrote...

The First Warden is still higher, though.

And Anders is of no concern to the Divine, the Grand Cleric, or even the Knight-Commander, so I can't imagine who in a position of authority would care enough to try to muscle the First Warden. The fact that Grey Warden mages already operate outside the auspices of the Chantry and the Order of Templars makes this aspect of the short story seem unlikely, especially since Anders isn't likely to be the first Circle mage conscripted into the order against the wishes of a templar (see: the Magi Origin, where the protagonist helps a blood mage escape). In addition, I find it odd that the Chantry would have a bigger issue with Anders than they would with a mage having unprecedented political power (for one of the Andrastian nations, of course).

[tmp7704]

Herr Uhl wrote...

This maybe?

About a minute in.

Yeah, i mean situations like that -- Anders appears to take over back right afterwards, so that doesn't really leave time for any dinner.

[BubbleDncr]

I think the only part the Warden played in making Anders what he was in DA2 was the fact that she recruited him, Justice, and Nathaniel. Without her, none of them would have crossed paths.

In Awakenings, Anders has no desire to fight for mage rights. In his banter with Justice, Justice spouts at Anders everything that Anders spouts at Hawke in DA2, and Anders is just like, "whatever, I don't want to fight."

Then Nathaniel presents the whole idea of possessing a living person in order to help them achieve their goals in his banter with Justice, convincing Justice that its a good idea.

I'm personally under the belief that either Justice REALLY worked hard at convincing Anders to fight for mage rights after Awakenings ended, or else that perhaps Anders wasn't a willing host, but once their personalities merged, Justice "convinced" Anders that he wanted to fight for mage rights, and so no Anders just believes that he wanted to all along.

I also think that the whole possession thing must have happened while the Warden was away from Amaranthine - I think the epilogue says that the Warden never stayed in Amaranthine for too long, either returning to court or going off with their love interest or something. So I guess you could also say, "Justice never would have possessed Anders if the Warden had been there," which I personally think is true, as well (at least my Warden wouldnt have let it happen).

I always figured my Warden, when she heard about the events in Kirkwall, would have felt responsible for them, solely because it would never have happened if she hadn't recruited those three dudes. But a logical, outside party would tell her there's no way she could have predicted that would have happened, and that Justice and Nathaniel are to blame.

[Terraforming]

BubbleDncr wrote...
I always figured my Warden, when she heard about the events in Kirkwall, would have felt responsible for them, solely because it would never have happened if she hadn't recruited those three dudes. But a logical, outside party would tell her there's no way she could have predicted that would have happened, and that Justice and Nathaniel are to blame.

That's how it plays out in my head too. My warden, who had been particularly stalwart and suspicious against spirits/demons, would feel particularly guilty for letting a fade spirit pal around with the rest of her companions in the first place.

[Demx]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As a matter of fact, I'd imagine that it's possible that the royal boon for the Circle of Ferelden might play a role for the meeting at Cumberland, since Knight-Commander Meredith implies it's had an impact among the other mages in the Circles of Magi when she confronted King Alistair (despite the Chantry refusing my Surana Warden's request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence).

Each royal boon is different, and there is always an option of being a bad ass and refuse to take a boon all together. Since all boons have drastic effects on Ferelden, I doubt Bioware will go any further than just word of mouth. It's easier to add one new line to the dialogue tree, than to create a drastic change to the story.

BubbleDncr wrote...

I think the only part the Warden played in making Anders what he was in DA2 was the fact that she recruited him, Justice, and Nathaniel. Without her, none of them would have crossed paths.

Anders was handed over to the templars, Justice haunts the grounds of the Blackmarsh, and Nathaniel was hanged. Other than being pissed at the Warden for handing him over to the templars, I don't see it.

Modifié par Siradix, 06 novembre 2011 - 08:06 .

[LadyJaneGrey]

Go talk to the Orlesians.  My Warden wasn't influencing much from the cold tomb of Weisshaupt. 

[ReallyRue]

LobselVith8 wrote...

ReallyRue wrote...

The First Warden is still higher, though.

And Anders is of no concern to the Divine, the Grand Cleric, or even the Knight-Commander, so I can't imagine who in a position of authority would care enough to try to muscle the First Warden. The fact that Grey Warden mages already operate outside the auspices of the Chantry and the Order of Templars makes this aspect of the short story seem unlikely, especially since Anders isn't likely to be the first Circle mage conscripted into the order against the wishes of a templar (see: the Magi Origin, where the protagonist helps a blood mage escape). In addition, I find it odd that the Chantry would have a bigger issue with Anders than they would with a mage having unprecedented political power (for one of the Andrastian nations, of course).

I find it hard to believe that templars would be sent just to keep an eye on Anders anyway. I always figured it was to watch the Warden mages in general, possibly even the Warden him/herself. But this is all just speculation anyway.

[LobselVith8]

Siradix wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

As a matter of fact, I'd imagine that it's possible that the royal boon for the Circle of Ferelden might play a role for the meeting at Cumberland, since Knight-Commander Meredith implies it's had an impact among the other mages in the Circles of Magi when she confronted King Alistair (despite the Chantry refusing my Surana Warden's request for the Circle of Ferelden to be given their independence).

Each royal boon is different, and there is always an option of being a bad ass and refuse to take a boon all together. Since all boons have drastic effects on Ferelden, I doubt Bioware will go any further than just word of mouth. It's easier to add one new line to the dialogue tree, than to create a drastic change to the story.

I doubt it would be too difficult to have a line addressing that the Magi boon (requested by the Surana or Amell Warden) could have lead to the meeting in Cumberland. It would be no different than how the confrontation between King Alistair and Knight-Commander Meredith changes if the Magi boon was requested. Considering that the royal boon is basically the Hero of Ferelden requesting the emancipation of the Circle of Ferelden from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars, with the new King or Queen agreeing with the independence of the mages, I'd imagine that it would be a big deal across Thedas.

BubbleDncr wrote...

Anders was handed over to the templars, Justice haunts the grounds of the Blackmarsh, and Nathaniel was hanged. Other than being pissed at the Warden for handing him over to the templars, I don't see it.

That's certainly a possibility, as well as Anders never having been recruited by the Warden-Commander and Justice being killed at the Dragonbone Wastes.

ReallyRue wrote...

I find it hard to believe that templars would be sent just to keep an eye on Anders anyway. I always figured it was to watch the Warden mages in general, possibly even the Warden him/herself. But this is all just speculation anyway.

The Chantry and the Order of Templars have had no control over Grey Warden mages for centuries. Grey Warden mages are outside authority and control of the templars to the point where Gaider addressed that the Chantry can't take away the children of Grey Warden mages:

David Gaider wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

David Gaider wrote...

Yes, married or not the child of a mage is taken away by the Chantry.

Would the same happen if the mage was also a Grey Warden, such as the Warden-Commander of DA:O and Awakenings?

A mage who is not part of the Circle is not subject to the will of the Chantry. So, no.

While apostates are illegally outside the control of the Circles of Magi, Grey Warden mages are legally outside the control of the Chantry and the templars. If the Grey Warden mages aren't subject to the will of the Chantry, why would the First Warden relinquish this by any measure in a nation where a mage can be the national hero, and the ruler of the nation is permitting the Grey Wardens to rule over an entire arling? If Grey Wardens are important enough that mages can exist outside templar control for centuries, I don't see why the Chantry would challenge this centuries later over one single mage who was recruited.