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[Jedi Master of Orion]

The Black City is said to be located in the Fade, not underground.

[WhiteKnyght]

PantheraOnca wrote...

The Grey Nayr wrote...



Plus Legacy confirms what a mission in Origins implies. There's a mission in the Alienage where a Rage Demon tells a blind Templar that there is no Maker or Golden City. And in Legacy, Corypheus claims that they were promised a golden city but it was black. Meaning they were deceived.

Well, let's put aside the fact that the rage demon is a non-reliable narrator.

If what it said was correct, that doesn't mean that there weren't old gods, or that Corypheus had not communicated with them/Dumat before they did the trip to the city.

No Maker or no Golden City != No Dumat.

You could draw the conclusion that Dumat, or the thing referring to itself as Dumat, had decieved the Magisters/Coryph but that is unrelated to the existance of the Maker or the City.

In short, right now I think that there WAS a Dumat, and that it communicated with Corypheus, and that it decieved him, but that it no longer exists. (it could however, just be dormant or choosing to not respond to Coryph. at this time, but for some reason I think its just Gone)

I never said there weren't old gods. I think that Dumat knew what was in the black city and that it would be a way for him and his kin to free themselves. Hence why they call to the darkspawn in the first place. The taint doesn't corrupt them. It just sets them free.

I think the old gods are really the forgotten ones. And the rest of the pantheon are probably in prisons somewhere in the Fade or in that realm beyond it that Morrigan used the eluvian to travel to.

[Arthur Cousland]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

But even in his private notes, he seems to fail to understand why people act the way they do. Did he plant those things in his lab hoping the Warden-Commander would escape and slaughter all his forces but think he was genuine?

If the Architect planted those items in his lab for the warden, then why is there no blackblade gloves or boots?

Also, if the Architect meant for the Withered to peacefully negotiate with the wardens, then why did they come through the basement?

The Architect is intelligent and stupid at the same time.

[AlexXIV]

greengoron89 wrote...

Not necessarily. In the Dalish Elf origin, Tamlen touches the corrupted Eluvian and mentions seeing a city of blackness, deep beneath the ground - and is shortly thereafter corrupted along with the DE Warden.

I suspect that what you see in the Fade is actually just a "reflection" of the Black City, much like the situation with Blackmarsh - a "spiritual" counterpart of it was pulled into the Fade, with the material part of it still remaining in the Thedas.

Well it is said to be in the Fade. But we have to trust historical recordings mostly in the hands of the Chantry. We don't really know if it was really ever golden or if it is a reflection like everything else in the Fade. Some even theorize (or theorized) that it was Arlathan. Maybe the historic events as we 'know' them are not accurate or things got mixed up. Maybe the fall of the Black City was actually the fall of Arlathan when the Tevinters destroyed it with powerful bloodmagic. So may be that the Black City was actually already black when the Tevinters tried to enter it through the Fade. I can imagine that it wouldn't sit well with the Chantry if it was discovered that their glorious seat of their Maker was actually the elven capitol and it was humanity's fault that everything went to hell. And that the elves are just victims. I mean the Chantry IS a racist organisation, even if not openly. And as such they are probably eager to make their own race look as the ones 'superior' throughout history.

[WhiteKnyght]

AlexXIV wrote...

greengoron89 wrote...

Not necessarily. In the Dalish Elf origin, Tamlen touches the corrupted Eluvian and mentions seeing a city of blackness, deep beneath the ground - and is shortly thereafter corrupted along with the DE Warden.

I suspect that what you see in the Fade is actually just a "reflection" of the Black City, much like the situation with Blackmarsh - a "spiritual" counterpart of it was pulled into the Fade, with the material part of it still remaining in the Thedas.

Well it is said to be in the Fade. But we have to trust historical recordings mostly in the hands of the Chantry. We don't really know if it was really ever golden or if it is a reflection like everything else in the Fade. Some even theorize (or theorized) that it was Arlathan. Maybe the historic events as we 'know' them are not accurate or things got mixed up. Maybe the fall of the Black City was actually the fall of Arlathan when the Tevinters destroyed it with powerful bloodmagic. So may be that the Black City was actually already black when the Tevinters tried to enter it through the Fade. I can imagine that it wouldn't sit well with the Chantry if it was discovered that their glorious seat of their Maker was actually the elven capitol and it was humanity's fault that everything went to hell. And that the elves are just victims. I mean the Chantry IS a racist organisation, even if not openly. And as such they are probably eager to make their own race look as the ones 'superior' throughout history.

Justice says the Fade models itself after the physical world. Perhaps the Black City in the Fade is as the other poster said, a counterpart. Like the Blackmarsh Undying.

The Black City being underground would explain why the darkspawn first appeared in the Deep Roads. Magisters think they are entering the Fade but accidentally send themselves underground(perhaps the core of the planet) and become exposed to the Taint, which is a mutagenic toxin, and they burrow upwards until they've built up their numbers and find an old god. Thus beginning the first blight.

[WhiteKnyght]

I noticed Anders compares Corypheus to the Architect if you slew him in awakening. He says "The warden-commander killed the last darkspawn of this sort."

Also when Janeka pleads her case about Corypheus helping them because the search for the old gods is too big a cost on his people Anders will say "This all sounds too familiar."

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:36 .

[iheartbob]

This is the first thread I've heard anyone mention the theory that Dumat is still alive. I have to admit it's an interesting theory, and would actually be pretty cool if it were pursued in further installments of the game, but I don't think there's any evidence to support it thus far. As everyone already mentioned, the voice at the alter to Dumat in Legacy sounded like Corypheus. In addition to that, any altar in the game can be supported by enchantments (thus defiling the altar would result in having to fight off the demons that spawn.)

I've read a lot of good arguments for the Architect being a former Magister, but I'm still inclined to think the Architect is different from Corypheus. I'm not closed to the idea that the Architect is a former Magister, but I don't think there's enough evidence in the game to support this outside of their similar designs (which can again be chalked up to the emissary game design they both follow.) And yes, the Architect deceived the Wardens, but that's not a trait exclusive to Magisters. So, again, not enough evidence to link the two. It's all speculation at this point. If the Architect was a former magister, then I think he is unaware of this fact. The journal entries you read in Awakening offer no hint to him being a Magister.

The elven origin was the first I played (and my favorite), and now I really wish I paid more attention to what Tamlen says when he touches the Eluvian. Especially now that it appears to be a very important feature in the game. I really liked the theory I read above about the fade offering reflections of the world humans otherwise inhabit. Because Tamlen mentioning a black city underground would then be appropriate, as that's where the darkspawn come from and the old gods slumber.

[Gervaise]

There are many sunken elven ruins and each time we encounter one, the elf in the party expresses surprise at the architecture which appears human, whilst there are clearly also elven artifacts within, such as statues of elven gods. This seems to hark back to a time before Tevinter when elves and humans were fairly friendly. One things that occurs to me is that when the elves realised they were losing their immortality, they shut themselves off from outside contact, which would make the humans look upon Arlathan as somewhere other/removed. The elves were also growing desperate because their elven gods appeared to have abandoned them, so it is possible that they resorted to other forms of magic to try and retain their immortality and in doing so actually corrupted their own city. There could then be an alternative hypothesis to that put forward by the elves, that Tevinter caused the sinking of the city into the ground to entrap the corruption and stop it spreading. (Or alternatively sinking it into the ground, emersed it into a gigantic vein of pure lyrium and this corrupted everything within it - since lyrium in its raw form does not seem to have any good effects associated with it and corrupts/sends mad anything that comes into contact with it for any length of time). The Fade still held a reflection of the city as it once was rather than it became until such time as the Magisters entered the city via the Fade, when the golden illusion was removed and its true nature revealed. Possibly the eluvians were the window that the Magisters looked into and once showed a golden city (underground/in the Fade) but once the deception was broken showed the actual black city.
Tamlen's actual words were that it was a city underground, then that it is black and then utter horror as someone/something sees him, following which the mirror explodes. Originally I just assumed that what he saw was a darkspawn but now I wonder if it was something else.

[Vicious]

Dumat is simply referenced and mentioned waaay too often to be truly dead, IMHO.