59 réponses à ce sujet

[InvincibleHero]

D.Kain wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
Sure for some people but you are changing a product post release. Only people that want the mod need ever use it. Changes he suggest that favor him may degrade the experience for many more people if Bw implements them.

True enough and that is why it is put up for discussion and it is just proposed. Sometimes on forums, when a good number of people agree on something Bioware listens to that. What exactly do YOU not like about the proposed system if I may ask?

One thing is he makes assumptions and basically claims BW isn't doing it right. It is like your argument about biotics should block more than he suggests. Only BW knows the true answer because they created ME and the codex.

As I said would create more errors in programming and certainly complicate battles. You gain less than you lose by going ot his whole system. It also creates more imbalances in classes. BW may have adjusted that in power allocations making this moot. If everyone gets an armor or shield stripping power then what does it matter anyway.

I am not bothered enough to make walls of text and justfiy everything in minutate though.

[D.Kain]

InvincibleHero wrote...

One thing is he makes assumptions and basically claims BW isn't doing it right. It is like your argument about biotics should block more than he suggests. Only BW knows the true answer because they created ME and the codex.

As I said would create more errors in programming and certainly complicate battles. You gain less than you lose by going ot his whole system. It also creates more imbalances in classes. BW may have adjusted that in power allocations making this moot. If everyone gets an armor or shield stripping power then what does it matter anyway.

I am not bothered enough to make walls of text and justfiy everything in minutate though.

Balance shouldn't be the priority. It's not a cyber sports game like Starcraft for example, where they actually play for big money. It is just a game for entertaiment. Bioware also balanced force users vs non force users in Star Wars TOR, which is just silly to say the least, but that is atleast a MP game where people fight each other.

[InvincibleHero]

D.Kain wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

One thing is he makes assumptions and basically claims BW isn't doing it right. It is like your argument about biotics should block more than he suggests. Only BW knows the true answer because they created ME and the codex.

As I said would create more errors in programming and certainly complicate battles. You gain less than you lose by going ot his whole system. It also creates more imbalances in classes. BW may have adjusted that in power allocations making this moot. If everyone gets an armor or shield stripping power then what does it matter anyway.

I am not bothered enough to make walls of text and justfiy everything in minutate though.

Balance shouldn't be the priority. It's not a cyber sports game like Starcraft for example, where they actually play for big money. It is just a game for entertaiment. Bioware also balanced force users vs non force users in Star Wars TOR, which is just silly to say the least, but that is atleast a MP game where people fight each other.

OH OH ME3 has multiplayer so I guess it needs balanced right? I think every class should have a chance to beat the game especially since it is not segregated like a thief can stealth through a game while a fighter can just kill everything while a mage has more options. In ME games everyone has to fight the smae encounters for the most part so they should be within a relative band. The fact a majority people can agree on strongest and weakest class in both games and give similar reasons just underscores how appropriate balance would be.

Modifié par InvincibleHero, 06 novembre 2011 - 07:19 .

[D.Kain]

InvincibleHero wrote...

OH OH ME3 has multiplayer so I guess it needs balanced right? I think every class should have a chance to beat the game especially since it is not segregated like a thief can stealth through a game while a fighter can just kill everything while a mage has more options. In ME games everyone has to fight the smae encounters for the most part so they should be within a relative band. The fact a majority people can agree on strongest and weakest class in both games and give similar reasons just underscores how appropriate balance would be.

But why not just make classes balanced a different way? I mean let's say that biotic throw would bypass shields/armor and could knock down groups of enemie or a heavy mech with heavy damage. Other classes can't do that, but can't we make that balanced? Sure we can. Say make a cast delay for 3 sec to gather biotic energy, make 2 sec delay after the cast and make the recharge time for the power longer. And balance will be there. That's just one example. 

[karthikc]

InvincibleHero wrote...
One thing is he makes assumptions and basically claims BW isn't doing it right. It is like your argument about biotics should block more than he suggests. Only BW knows the true answer because they created ME and the codex.

As I said would create more errors in programming and certainly complicate battles. You gain less than you lose by going ot his whole system. It also creates more imbalances in classes. BW may have adjusted that in power allocations making this moot. If everyone gets an armor or shield stripping power then what does it matter anyway.

I am not bothered enough to make walls of text and justfiy everything in minutate though.

Hi, I'm the thread op. I am not bothered enough to make walls of text and justify everything in minutiae either... how about a chest high fence of text?

- We play the hand we're dealt. I cannot take into account hypotheticals about design issues I don't know of. But the devs can, and all I hope for is that they find this thread. If enough people make some noise about it, they might. 

- On the same lines, perhaps you should raise objections that are not founded in unknown unknowns. It's not much of a design idea if it can't withstand any kind of actual scrutiny. Handwaving does not help the discussion.

- I do not expect BW to implement any of this. That ship has sailed; I said as much. But I do believe BW can do better with the protection system. Don't you?

- Every class does not get an armor/shield stripping power. Please read the actual points I make. On an unrelated note, balance is overrated for an SP game. ME2 was trivial with any class below hardcore, and some classes had a much easier time on insanity (and a much easier learning curve).

[InvincibleHero]

D.Kain wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...

OH OH ME3 has multiplayer so I guess it needs balanced right? I think every class should have a chance to beat the game especially since it is not segregated like a thief can stealth through a game while a fighter can just kill everything while a mage has more options. In ME games everyone has to fight the smae encounters for the most part so they should be within a relative band. The fact a majority people can agree on strongest and weakest class in both games and give similar reasons just underscores how appropriate balance would be.

But why not just make classes balanced a different way? I mean let's say that biotic throw would bypass shields/armor and could knock down groups of enemie or a heavy mech with heavy damage. Other classes can't do that, but can't we make that balanced? Sure we can. Say make a cast delay for 3 sec to gather biotic energy, make 2 sec delay after the cast and make the recharge time for the power longer. And balance will be there. That's just one example. 

Yeah but for MP every class needs shield stripping as a baseline minimum. It is by far the most prevalent while being good against mechs and only that makes you weak against everything else. If you go messing with cooldowns then longer cooldowns would tend to make that power less favorable. you can get taken down so fast that waiting might not be an option. If in that time you could get two powers off that did less damage individually but addded up as more then it makes waiting useless. Then again waiting 8 secs might mean you gunned it down.

[D.Kain]

InvincibleHero wrote...

Yeah but for MP every class needs shield stripping as a baseline minimum. It is by far the most prevalent while being good against mechs and only that makes you weak against everything else. If you go messing with cooldowns then longer cooldowns would tend to make that power less favorable. you can get taken down so fast that waiting might not be an option. If in that time you could get two powers off that did less damage individually but addded up as more then it makes waiting useless. Then again waiting 8 secs might mean you gunned it down.

Well you can make a balanced cooldowns. But I actually think that cooldown is exactly the thing to mess with. 
Think of it, it has been there for decades since diablo - you have a dagger, you hit fast and little dmg, you have a two-hand Axe you hit slow but big dmg.

Modifié par D.Kain, 06 novembre 2011 - 07:39 .

[InvincibleHero]

karthikc wrote...

InvincibleHero wrote...
One thing is he makes assumptions and basically claims BW isn't doing it right. It is like your argument about biotics should block more than he suggests. Only BW knows the true answer because they created ME and the codex.

As I said would create more errors in programming and certainly complicate battles. You gain less than you lose by going ot his whole system. It also creates more imbalances in classes. BW may have adjusted that in power allocations making this moot. If everyone gets an armor or shield stripping power then what does it matter anyway.

I am not bothered enough to make walls of text and justfiy everything in minutate though.

Hi, I'm the thread op. I am not bothered enough to make walls of text and justify everything in minutiae either... how about a chest high fence of text?

- We play the hand we're dealt. I cannot take into account hypotheticals about design issues I don't know of. But the devs can, and all I hope for is that they find this thread. If enough people make some noise about it, they might. 

- On the same lines, perhaps you should raise objections that are not founded in unknown unknowns. It's not much of a design idea if it can't withstand any kind of actual scrutiny. Handwaving does not help the discussion.

- I do not expect BW to implement any of this. That ship has sailed; I said as much. But I do believe BW can do better with the protection system. Don't you?

- Every class does not get an armor/shield stripping power. Please read the actual points I make. On an unrelated note, balance is overrated for an SP game. ME2 was trivial with any class below hardcore, and some classes had a much easier time on insanity (and a much easier learning curve).

I do think they did as good as they could balancing resources, engine, programming and making an entertaining game. They likely tried various ideas and this set worked best. While I have some minor quibbles with the combat and class balance for the most part I made it through with most of the classes. Haven't completed my soldier or adept run yet.

That was my suggestion that they should for balance get such in each class not that you did. Just a misunderstanding. Well in party based games balance is not an issue because you take a thief, cleric, mage, and fighter to circumvent all problems. In SP if no one wants to use a class because it sucks so bad then why did they waste time and resources to make it? They should not be exactly equal but they should be in the same ball park.

[D.Kain]

InvincibleHero wrote...

I do think they did as good as they could balancing resources, engine, programming and making an entertaining game. They likely tried various ideas and this set worked best. While I have some minor quibbles with the combat and class balance for the most part I made it through with most of the classes. Haven't completed my soldier or adept run yet.

That was my suggestion that they should for balance get such in each class not that you did. Just a misunderstanding. Well in party based games balance is not an issue because you take a thief, cleric, mage, and fighter to circumvent all problems. In SP if no one wants to use a class because it sucks so bad then why did they waste time and resources to make it? They should not be exactly equal but they should be in the same ball park.

classes won't suck if they just play COMPLETELY different. They will just all be fun and replay ability will be bigger.

[InvincibleHero]

D.Kain wrote...

classes won't suck if they just play COMPLETELY different. They will just all be fun and replay ability will be bigger.

Different is well and good ,but if a soldier breezes through one encounter and another class faceplants 20 times without success then it is poor balancing. Every class needs a reasonable accomodation.

For shield stripping you could have say infiltrator makes shields inactive for 2(arbitrary) seconds (sabotage) which then resumes at full strength which allows shooting the enemy instead of damaging the shileds. It would play totally different but have the same effect.