198 réponses à ce sujet

[GodWood]

Michel1986 wrote...
Lockdown please, it seems Saphra Deden can't talk normal with forum members ... in fact hes acting like a ****.

Oh please.
Why ruin a perfectly good discussion just because Saph's being blunt.
Arcian's post contained far more bile and contributed absolutely nothing to the thread, b!tch about that.

As for the topic, I've always thought Anderson should be punished for his treason but I'm hardly suprised he hasn't been.
Especially when all the other developments within Retribution (?) have been glossed over in ME3.

Modifié par GodWood, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:17 .

[Bogsnot1]

Bioware will not put Anderson in gaol simply because they wish to cause you severe butthurt.

[SkittlesKat96]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Trolls and kids, god damn I hate you people.

Saphra, why don't you go to 4chan /v/?

Same with Prince Zeel (not that he is reading this thread but still.)

EDIT: I say this cause /v/ is full of people like Saphra so maybe he/she'd like posting there

Modifié par SkittlesKat96, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:35 .

[aiDvEoN]

Where in the name of Raptor Jesus was Anderson supposed to go to extricate this cancer from the alliance? Any internal action would be countermanded or undermined by other Cerberus agents within the alliance command structure. The Asari wouldn't do squat, given their apparent inability to do anything but sit on their laurels. The salarians would turn it into the intelligence boom of the millennium worse than anyone else could. The turians would at least act decisively and hurt Cerberus badly and fast.

Was it a diplomatic disaster? Short term, absolutely. Long term, it hurts Cerberus and shows a willingnness by humanity to cooperate and act to keep our garden clean. Yes, Anderson absolutely should've fallen on his sword and resigned as councillor, and I agree he should've lost his commission.

Let's face it though, the real reason Saphra is mad is because their beloved coalition of mad scientists, terrorists and murderers got hammered.

[Han Shot First]

Oh yeah, sure, we'll let the Alliance send their own people to watch us interrogate these Cerberus agents? Alliance people who are probably Cerberus agents themselves? I don't think so.

The Turians wouldn't have a choice in the matter. There would be treaties in place governing this sort of thing, and it is extremely doubtful that individual member states of the Council would have the right to arrest or detain citizens of other Council member states, without their respective governments having access to them. The Turians refusing the Alliance access to its own citizens would cause a major diplomatic incident, likely not just with humanity but with other civilizations ruled by the Council as well. The other species would want the same rights for their own citizens, and would not look too kindly on the Turians behaving like an intergalactic bully and disregarding intergalactic treaties.

Also while there are some Cerberus moles and sympathizers within the Alliance, they are only a small minority. Most of the Alliance is just as committed to stamping out Cerberus as the Turians are, if not more so. After all Cerberus poses a greater internal threat to the Alliance than it does an external threat to the Turians. The Turians would have no ground to refuse the Alliance access to any Alliance military personnel that were rounded up.

What Anderson did would be equivalent to an American officer, fearing infiltration of the US military by say a neo-**** group, going to the Chinese and asking them to arrest American military officers.

Replace Chinese with French or Germans, and I agree. The Turians are allied with humanity, even if the alliance between the two is sometimes an uneasy one. The US and China are not allied at all.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:40 .

[Ausstig]

I would like the option to kill him and join Cerberus. Because I am human and we are all raciest

[Biotic Sage]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Trolls and kids, god damn I hate you people.

I think what you mean is, "Why aren't these people agreeing with everything I say?"  In every thread I've seen you in, you aren't interested in discussion.  In discussion, you try to persuade people to accept your viewpoint with respectful arguments; what you do is act condescending and superior.  If you know that you are always right and that anyone who can't see the "truth" is a "troll or kid," then why are you on a social website?  Why are you on a social anything?  What would make you happiest in your current mindset is if you would just brood to yourself in solitude and reaffirm (to yourself) over and over again your own assertions.  That way no one would disagree with you and you wouldn't get so upset.

Disregarding all of that, though, you are a very negative and bitter individual.  Ask yourself if you are really happy, and if you can let go of stubbornness and denial long enough to realize that hating people doesnt' make you happy, you might actually try being nice every once in a while in the future.  Now you may say that whole perspective is condescending in itself and that I'm a hypocrite, which may be true, but ultimately taking that cynical approach isn't going to make you a happier individual either; so me being a hypocrite is really a moot point in that case.

Modifié par Biotic Sage, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[TobyHasEyes]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Acting against Cerberus wouldn't put him at odds with the Alliance.

Did you read my post? Get out.

 This post alone says everything you need to know about Saphra Deden

 Arrogant ******

[CamlTowPetttingZoo]

Would the same hold true for Shepard then since he/she was working with a known enemy of the alliance? I'm just wondering this here.

[Zatwu]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Yuoaman wrote...

The turians and humans are both Council races, they are allies. I don't see the big problem.

Didn't you pay attention in ME1? Did you read the novels? Did you play ME2?

The Council is a loose affiliation at best. The races are still separate, most especially the Alliance. It is an outcast, even as a member.

All the races maintain their own secrets, their own technologies, their own security services.

What Anderson did would be equivalent to an American officer, fearing infiltration of the US military by say a neo-Nazi group, going to the Chinese and asking them to arrest American military officers.

In the long run maybe it will do some good (that is debatable, especially in Anderson's case), but in the mean-time the US has had a major intelligence leak to China and lost much of its credibility.

If this weren't a big issue Anderson wouldn't have felt compelled to quit his post.

No its not at all like that because the Alliance and Turians are allies, and Cerberus are terrorists. It'd be like an American Officer discovering infiltration by Al Quaeda and getting the UK or NATO to arrest them.

Your argument falls apart when its viewed objectively.

[lolspawn]

you belongs in jail

Modifié par lolspawn, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:49 .

[GodWood]

Should've saved posting this thread until there were better posters online.

[naledgeborn]

Saph has a very good point. These are -- or were high ranking Alliance officials. Cerberus or not the Turian Hierarchy is going to grill them about sensitive Alliance intelligence. A very face-palm worthy move.

At the very least I was expecting him to be demoted back to Captain.

[General User]

I agree this is a good point.

If you knew of someone in your country who was breaking the law and you reported it not to your own domestic law enforcement or intelligence agencies but to a foreign one, I imagine your own country's government would have a few choice words for you. Even if the country you brought in was a friendly one.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[Seboist]

naledgeborn wrote...

Saph has a very good point. These are -- or were high ranking Alliance officials. Cerberus or not the Turian Hierarchy is going to grill them about sensitive Alliance intelligence. A very face-palm worthy move.

At the very least I was expecting him to be demoted back to Captain.

True, Anderson created in the words of Councilor Udina a "political sh!tstorm".

[Zatwu]

General User wrote...

It's a good point. If you knew of someone in your country who was breaking the law and you reported it not to your own domestic law enforcement or intelligence agencies but to a foreign one, I imagine your own country's government would have a few choice words for you. Even if the country you brought in was a friendly one.

I agee, completely. But the Alliance being miffed at Anderson is entirely different from putting him in prison and stripping his comission.

Modifié par Zatwu, 06 novembre 2011 - 09:59 .

[General User]

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

It's a good point. If you knew of someone in your country who was breaking the law and you reported it not to your own domestic law enforcement or intelligence agencies but to a foreign one, I imagine your own country's government would have a few choice words for you. Even if the country you brought in was a friendly one.

I agee, completely. But the Alliance being miffed at Anderson and putting him in prison and stripping his comission are entirely different things.

Depending on the severity of the security breach, and mitigated by any extenuating circumstances, jail is FAR from out of the picture.

[Zatwu]

General User wrote...

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

It's a good point. If you knew of someone in your country who was breaking the law and you reported it not to your own domestic law enforcement or intelligence agencies but to a foreign one, I imagine your own country's government would have a few choice words for you. Even if the country you brought in was a friendly one.

I agee, completely. But the Alliance being miffed at Anderson and putting him in prison and stripping his comission are entirely different things.

Depending on the severity of the security breach, and mitigated by any extenuating circumstances, jail is FAR from out of the picture.

I have to disagree, Anderson officially acted in cooperation with a Council Race to remove not just a threat to the Turians and Humanity, but also a known enemy of the Citadel Council. If the Alliance did imprison or punish him for it, it would create a far bigger "political ****storm" than anything he did.

[General User]

In a fit of Devil's advocate, a few things I can think of in David Anderson's defense would be.

His position as Councilor and Ambassador of the Alliance (should he have it in the first place of course) may have authorized him to release classified information like this to nominally allied governments.  That would mean the fallout would be political, not legal (ie, he deserves to lose his job, not serve jail time).

And... The particulars of the Cerberus operation in question may have placed them under Council jurisdiction.  Of course, "Council jurisdiction" seems to be whatever they say their jurisdiction is, so I'm not really sure if that mean anything.

[Han Shot First]

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

It's a good point. If you knew of someone in your country who was breaking the law and you reported it not to your own domestic law enforcement or intelligence agencies but to a foreign one, I imagine your own country's government would have a few choice words for you. Even if the country you brought in was a friendly one.

I agee, completely. But the Alliance being miffed at Anderson and putting him in prison and stripping his comission are entirely different things.

Depending on the severity of the security breach, and mitigated by any extenuating circumstances, jail is FAR from out of the picture.

I have to disagree, Anderson officially acted in cooperation with a Council Race to remove not just a threat to the Turians and Humanity, but also a known enemy of the Citadel Council. If the Alliance did imprison or punish him for it, it would create a far bigger "political ****storm" than anything he did.

Pretty much this.

I'm sure some Alliance brass or elected officials would be miffed at Anderson keeping them completely in the dark while working with the Turians, but there isn't much they could do about it. Jailing Anderson would only make the Alliance look like de facto allies of Cerberus to the rest of the Council (much like Pakistan looked like a de facto ally of Al Qaeda, when it jailed Pakistanis who provided intel to the CIA for the Bin Laden raid) and would likely not play well in the court of public opinion back on Earth. Terra Firma aside, Cerberus isn't popular.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:12 .

[The Elder King]

Isn't Anderson a member of the Council at the beginning of the book? It could be that he wasn't demoted or put in jail because he acted for the Council's interest, since Cerberus is labeled as a terrorist organization by the Council. If the Alliance would've put Anderson in jai it could've caused problem with them. Or the Alliance decided that destroying Cerberus is more important than the capture of some Alliance officer. (or ti could be that the book have the objective to make Udina the human Councilor and Anderson an Admiral in ME3, no matter who you choose in ME).
About Anderson's resignation, I didn't read the book. He was really forced to resign from his position, or it was his decision?

[Comsky159]

Zatwu wrote...

I have to disagree, Anderson officially acted in cooperation with a Council Race to remove not just a threat to the Turians and Humanity, but also a known enemy of the Citadel Council. If the Alliance did imprison or punish him for it, it would create a far bigger "political ****storm" than anything he did.

This I've considered as well. Anderson's too grand a figure in the citadel and in the eyes of council for them to make any move against him. In the eyes of the galaxy as a whole Anderson is to be commended for his willingness to cooperate and assist every species in he absence of human agenda. By imprisoning him, the Alliance would have been seen to have punished this mentality, which is a perception they'd prefer to avoid.

Even if they don't approve of his actions they have very little choice but to accept them.

Modifié par Comsky159, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:14 .

[General User]

Han Shot First wrote...

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

It's a good point. If you knew of someone in your country who was breaking the law and you reported it not to your own domestic law enforcement or intelligence agencies but to a foreign one, I imagine your own country's government would have a few choice words for you. Even if the country you brought in was a friendly one.

I agee, completely. But the Alliance being miffed at Anderson and putting him in prison and stripping his comission are entirely different things.

Depending on the severity of the security breach, and mitigated by any extenuating circumstances, jail is FAR from out of the picture.

I have to disagree, Anderson officially acted in cooperation with a Council Race to remove not just a threat to the Turians and Humanity, but also a known enemy of the Citadel Council. If the Alliance did imprison or punish him for it, it would create a far bigger "political ****storm" than anything he did.

Pretty much this.

I'm sure some Alliance brass or elected officials would be miffed at Anderson keeping them completely in the dark while working with the Turians, but there isn't much they could do about it. Jailing Anderson would only make the Alliance look like de facto allies of Cerberus to the rest of the Council (much like Pakistan looked like a de facto ally of Al Qaeda, when it jailed Pakistanis who provided intel to the CIA for the Bin Laden raid) and would likely not play well in the court of public opinion back on Earth. Terra Firma aside, Cerberus isn't popular.

What makes you so sure Cerberus isn't popular back on Earth?

[naledgeborn]

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

Zatwu wrote...

General User wrote...

It's a good point. If you knew of someone in your country who was breaking the law and you reported it not to your own domestic law enforcement or intelligence agencies but to a foreign one, I imagine your own country's government would have a few choice words for you. Even if the country you brought in was a friendly one.

I agee, completely. But the Alliance being miffed at Anderson and putting him in prison and stripping his comission are entirely different things.

Depending on the severity of the security breach, and mitigated by any extenuating circumstances, jail is FAR from out of the picture.

I have to disagree, Anderson officially acted in cooperation with a Council Race to remove not just a threat to the Turians and Humanity, but also a known enemy of the Citadel Council. If the Alliance did imprison or punish him for it, it would create a far bigger "political ****storm" than anything he did.

One thing I took from ME2 is that the Alliance is ultimately on it's own. I saved the Council. They gave Humanity a seat. What was the point if Udina always gets denied help and vetoed when major policies come into play? The Council doesn't have the Alliance's and Humanity's interests at heart.

The same can't be said for Cerberus. Sure they're extreme when it comes to "playing with needles", but when the Collectors where ethnically cleansing the Human race to make the Terminator they were the only ones doing anything about it.

On topic: the fact that Anderson sold the Alliance out to the Council and Turians is very bad. He should be grounded just like Shepard. But I guess it was a power move for himself too. Greater good and all that with the Reapers on the way.

Still no excuse for handing over Alliance intelligence to it's military rivals.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Han Shot First]

General User wrote...

[]What makes you so sure Cerberus isn't popular back on Earth?

If Cerberus was popular it wouldn't be an illegal organization with only a few hundred individuals, and Terra Firma would be dominating in elections.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:20 .