198 réponses à ce sujet

[CptBomBom00]

*Sits in the back and eat's his pizza quietly while watching other's arguing*.

[General User]

Han Shot First wrote...

General User wrote...

[]What makes you so sure Cerberus isn't popular back on Earth?

If Cerberus was popular it wouldn't be an illegal organization with only a few hundred individuals, and Terra Firma would be dominating in elections.

Illegal organizations can't be popular? And Terra Firma is just one of the many pies Cerberus has it's fingers in. The two are not exactly inextricably linked.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:25 .

[Barquiel]

General User wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

General User wrote...

[]What makes you so sure Cerberus isn't popular back on Earth?

If Cerberus was popular it wouldn't be an illegal organization with only a few hundred individuals, and Terra Firma would be dominating in elections.

Illegal organizations can't be popular? And Terra Firma is just one of the many pies Cerberus has it's fingers in. The two are not exactly inextricably linked.

Jacob said most Alliance marines hate Cerberus on principle. I got the impression that Cerberus is not exactly popular on earth.

Anderson...
Imagine chancellor Adenauer asks Harry Truman to arrest some former NDSAP officials who want to overthrow Germany's elected government.  In order to do so, they've infiltrated political parties, the Bundeswehr, Bundesgrenzschutz -> He can't ask his own forces. Should he be arrested?

[General User]

Barquiel wrote...
Jacob said most Alliance marines hate Cerberus on principle. I got the impression that Cerberus is not exactly popular on earth.

I don't disagree exactly.  It's just that Cerberus gets alot of financial support from Earth.  So maybe "popular" is the wrong word, but they clearly have strong base of support there.

Barquiel wrote...
Anderson...
Imagine chancellor Adenauer asks Harry Truman to arrest some former NDSAP officials who want to overthrow Germany's elected government.  In order to do so, they've infiltrated political parties, the Bundeswehr, Bundesgrenzschutz -> He can't ask his own forces. Should he be arrested?

That's a terrible example.  Germany post-WWII was the moral and (until the end of the occupation period at least) legal responsibility of the United States (and the other Allies).  Nothing of the sort can be said in regards to the relationship between the Alliance and the Hierarchy.  Also the Chancellor of the Federal Republic of Germany was a head of government, not a Councilor/Ambassador, and certainly not a mere military officer!

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:45 .

[Han Shot First]

General User wrote...

Han Shot First wrote...

General User wrote...

[]What makes you so sure Cerberus isn't popular back on Earth?

If Cerberus was popular it wouldn't be an illegal organization with only a few hundred individuals, and Terra Firma would be dominating in elections.

Illegal organizations can't be popular? And Terra Firma is just one of the many pies Cerberus has it's fingers in. The two are not exactly inextricably linked.

If Cerberus had popular support it wouldn't need to be a rogue organization. Sympathetic political parties like Terra Firma would dominate in elections, and Cerberus wouldn't need to operate in the shadows. Cerberus goals would become official Alliance policy or law.

Also as noted by Barquiel Jacob mentions that Cerberus isn't too popular among the Alliance rank & file. While he was speaking specifically about the Alliance military, it is a safe bet that the same is also true of the general population that they are drawn from.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 novembre 2011 - 10:46 .

[Han Shot First]

[quote]Cerberus needs to be secretive so this is a moot point. Clearly Cerberus' politics do have popular support because they have the Terra Firma party. [/quote]

Having a political party doesn't necessarily mean you have popular support.

Consider that in the United States, there is an American N@zi Party, a modern Whig Party, A Socialist Workers Party, and a Communist Party. All of these various political parties have their share of supporters, but they are also very much in the minority and on the fringe. They have no shot at the Presidency or of gaining countrol of the Senate or the House of Representatives.

The very fact that Cerberus has to operate on the fringe prooves that they lack popular support. Movements that have popular support bend the government to their will (or overthrow it) and don't need to operate outside of it.


Says
who? The Alliance can't just make demands of the turians or vice versa.
The turians can also easily dismiss any Alliance demands because the
Alliane is "infiltrated" and thus it can't be trusted. For its own sake
it must be kept out of the process.[/quote]

Realistically there would be treaties or Council law in place governing the rights of prisoners, and the rights of member states in having access to citizens held prisoner in other member states. The Turians couldn't simply refuse without a political backlash.

Modifié par Han Shot First, 06 novembre 2011 - 11:30 .

[General User]

Given that the Council's "laws" only apply up until the point that they become inconvenient, and that the capture of senior Cerberus-affiliated Alliance officials is a potentially historic intelligence windfall for the Hierarchy, the turians could easily see "a political backlash" as a price worth paying.

Hell, depending how willing the turians are to share their good fortune with the asari and salarians, they could easily end up with net diplomatic gain out of this affair.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2011 - 12:33 .

[BatmanPWNS]

Because he is the former mentor of Space-Jesus.

[IanPolaris]

naledgeborn wrote...
The same can't be said for Cerberus. Sure they're extreme when it comes to "playing with needles", but when the Collectors where ethnically cleansing the Human race to make the Terminator they were the only ones doing anything about it.

If you took TIM at his word on this point, then I have some Montana Beachfront property you might be interested in.  It seems clear (especially given that Cereberus is a major villian and in bed with the Reapers in ME3) that TIM didn't and doesn't give a flying leap about the Reaper Threat as long as humanity Cerebus winds up on top.  If that means that humans become the new Reapers, then TIM is fine with that.

Really, the entire recruitment of Shepard (other than good short term PR) was to get the Collector base and solve the Omega-4 relay.  After that, Shepard is expendible and TIM turns on Shepard in a nanosecond after his usefulness ends.

-Polaris

[naledgeborn]

We'll see Ian... there's an entire game's worth of info we do not have.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 06 novembre 2011 - 12:00 .

[IanPolaris]

naledgeborn wrote...

We'll see Ian... there's an entire game's worth of info we do not have.

We know for a fact that Cerberus is working for the Reapers in ME3 and that's less than two months after the suicide mission that ends ME2.  Also the one and only time that TIM tries to give Shepard a direct order and really gives a hissy fit if he doesn't get his way is if a (paragon) Shepard [or a smart renegade Shepard] does the safe thing and blows up the Collector base.  TIM's true purpose comes out very well at that point and he's really ticked off for about the only time in ME2.  [I also point out that Cerberus' track record for dealing with Reaper technology has been.....less than stellar....]

-Polaris

[Candidate 88766]

Would it not look far worse for the Alliance to imprison Anderon after he has just revealed the Alliance to be full of Cerberus moles?

Also, everyone here needs to chill - there's no need for name calling or insults.

[Zulu_DFA]

@ Saphra. You're right except for one thing: Anderson had become an admiral before his treasonous actions.

[Candidate 88766]

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Saphra. You're right except for one thing: Anderson had become an admiral before his treasonous actions.

When did he become an Admiral? I'm not picking an arguement, but you're normally quite good at knowing the lore and I'm curious to know - I made him councilor so I'd like to know when he became an Admiral.

[Candidate 88766]

IanPolaris wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

We'll see Ian... there's an entire game's worth of info we do not have.

We know for a fact that Cerberus is working for the Reapers in ME3 and that's less than two months after the suicide mission that ends ME2.  Also the one and only time that TIM tries to give Shepard a direct order and really gives a hissy fit if he doesn't get his way is if a (paragon) Shepard [or a smart renegade Shepard] does the safe thing and blows up the Collector base.  TIM's true purpose comes out very well at that point and he's really ticked off for about the only time in ME2.  [I also point out that Cerberus' track record for dealing with Reaper technology has been.....less than stellar....]

-Polaris

I think its a bit more than that - ME3 takes place a couple of months after Arrival, but Arrival takes place a few months after the Suicide Mission.

[IanPolaris]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

We'll see Ian... there's an entire game's worth of info we do not have.

We know for a fact that Cerberus is working for the Reapers in ME3 and that's less than two months after the suicide mission that ends ME2.  Also the one and only time that TIM tries to give Shepard a direct order and really gives a hissy fit if he doesn't get his way is if a (paragon) Shepard [or a smart renegade Shepard] does the safe thing and blows up the Collector base.  TIM's true purpose comes out very well at that point and he's really ticked off for about the only time in ME2.  [I also point out that Cerberus' track record for dealing with Reaper technology has been.....less than stellar....]

-Polaris

I think its a bit more than that - ME3 takes place a couple of months after Arrival, but Arrival takes place a few months after the Suicide Mission.

I don't think so.  It was my understanding that Arrival (and Lotsb) both took place almost immediately after the Suicide Mission.  Otherwise it would be impossible to keep your ME2 squad intact for both but you do.  Regardless, the time period is months not years which validates my overall point.  TIM isn't opposed to the Reapers...not really.  He simply wants it done on Cerebus' terms.  Having humanity become the next Reaper obviously doesn't bother TIM at all.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Saphra. You're right except for one thing: Anderson had become an admiral before his treasonous actions.

When did he become an Admiral? I'm not picking an arguement, but you're normally quite good at knowing the lore and I'm curious to know - I made him councilor so I'd like to know when he became an Admiral.

Anderson becomes an Admiral very soon after the events of ME1 unless you make him councilor in which case he is forced to resign from the military.

-Polaris

[naledgeborn]

Anderson was promoted to Admiral after the Battle of the Citadel. Then he either retires his commission to become Councilor or he continues serving as an Admiral.

@ Ian

Mass Effect 3 takes place 6-12 months after Arrival. This has been confirmed by the developers. It happens to be reasonable amount of time for various other explanations.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 06 novembre 2011 - 12:28 .

[Candidate 88766]

IanPolaris wrote...

Candidate 88766 wrote...

Zulu_DFA wrote...

@ Saphra. You're right except for one thing: Anderson had become an admiral before his treasonous actions.

When did he become an Admiral? I'm not picking an arguement, but you're normally quite good at knowing the lore and I'm curious to know - I made him councilor so I'd like to know when he became an Admiral.

Anderson becomes an Admiral very soon after the events of ME1 unless you make him councilor in which case he is forced to resign from the military.

-Polaris

The wiki is normally pretty on the ball with ME stuff, and according to the timeline ME2 occurs in 2185 and Arrival in 2186. I'm also pretty sure there were some tweets a while ago amounting to much the same thing,

[Merchant2006]

Saphra Deden wrote...

111987 wrote...

Acting against Cerberus wouldn't put him at odds with the Alliance.

Did you read my post? Get out.

And you have destroyed your argument. Well done. Come back and reply to people when you have your head out of your **** and cleaned up your act.

[CroGamer002]

Why don't we also jail Shepard for stealing the Normandy?


Both Anderson and Shepard did what can be considered actions of traitors, but yet none got penalized?
Why?

Cause they did it to stop greater threat.

Shepard to stop Saren once and for all, while Anderson the same with Cerberus.

Even though Cerberus wasn't stopped, they got hit really hard and if didn't joined Reapers they would have crumble by the start of ME3.

[Fixers0]

Why is Anderson not in Jail?

Because we need people who punch the likes of Udina in the face for their incompentance.

[General User]

Mesina2 wrote...

Why don't we also jail Shepard for stealing the Normandy?

Shepard's stealing the Normandy ultimately had only positive consequences.

Modifié par General User, 06 novembre 2011 - 01:22 .