198 réponses à ce sujet

[General User]

Mesina2 wrote...

General User wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Why don't we also jail Shepard for stealing the Normandy?

Shepard's stealing the Normandy ultimately had only positive consequences.

And so does Anderson action.


He did a huge blow on enemy of both Council and Alliance.

He also did damage to the Alliance.  Whereas Shepard's stealing the Normandy ultimately had only positive consequences for every one involved (except the Reapers of course), Anderson's decision to bring the turians in on a counter-Cerberus op has seriously negative (potentially disasterous) consequences for the Alliance.

[IanPolaris]

Bad King wrote...

Nope, Cerberus had other motives throughout ME2 as well as capturing Collector tech. If you read the mission complete screens (which show TIM's viewpoint on missions that Shepard has completed), TIM advocates curing the genophage and uniting the geth and quarians. He even claims that destroying the collector base was a victory (if Shepard dies). In Retribution he studies Grayson to try and learn more about the reapers, and when grayson escapes he attempts to terminate him. TIM's siding with the reapers in ME3 is a u-turn that has occurred between ME2 and ME3, not during ME2.

You believe what you read from TIM?  Really?  The comics and books make it very clear that TIM was never telling you the truth not even in the official statements he gives you in ME2.  Cerberus attacks the Salarian base in ME3 to prevent the genophage from being cured.  In addition, Cerberus is now openly allied with the Reapers in ME3.  What's more, it's very reasonable to assume that the Collectors had some base (and not a planet as TIM would have Shepard believe) simply by monitoring and comparing various EM profiles of collector ships.  The small number would indicate a base rather than a planet.

There are various other ways that TIM would be able to guess with a very high level of probability that there was a collector base to capture and that there was an IFF needed to successfully navigate the Omega-4 relay.

In short, look at the information and what TIM acts on and stop taking his word at any face value whatsoever.  TIM is an inveterate liar and needs to be regarded as such.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Nope, Cerberus had other motives throughout ME2 as well as capturing Collector tech. If you read the mission complete screens (which show TIM's viewpoint on missions that Shepard has completed), TIM advocates curing the genophage and uniting the geth and quarians. He even claims that destroying the collector base was a victory (if Shepard dies). In Retribution he studies Grayson to try and learn more about the reapers, and when grayson escapes he attempts to terminate him. TIM's siding with the reapers in ME3 is a u-turn that has occurred between ME2 and ME3, not during ME2.

Exactly. Everything they didi n ME2 indicated they planned to fight the Reapers, not join them. That's part of what made Anderson's attack against them so ludicrous.

Not really.  TIM had a long standing track record as a terrorist and a liar and Dr Grayson was merely the final proof that TIM was lying about "fighting the reapers" as well....or seriously deluded at the very least.  In any event it's pretty clear that Cerberus played Shepard all along.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

You believe what you read from TIM?  Really?

I believe what TIM wrote to himself, yes. Those mission summaries are clearly not something Shepard is reading. They are meant only for the player. If they weren't true, which means what EDI told us also wasn't true, then the entire thing was a ****ing waste of time. (fancy that, ME2 was only filler)

It seems that Retribution was only filler too seeing as nothing that happened there has had an affect on anything. Cerberus wasn't made weak, the Alliance and turians didn't have their relations damaged, and Anderson didn't get himself into trouble. It's like it never happened.

I think the ME2 game lied to us, yes.

-Polaris

[CroGamer002]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Cerberus definitely doesn't have only 150 people in entire organization.

I agree, but that IS the information that EDI has and gives to Shepard.  That being so and given that we know in ME3 that Cerberus openly allies itself with the Reapers, I think it's pretty clear that TIM was lying to Shepard about almost everything from the very start.

Best guess, Miranda was supposed to be TIM's safeguard in case Shepard/Normandy SR2 slipped it's leash but somehow that went wrong (the obvious branch in many paragon playthroughs is that Miranda renounces Cerberus when ordered to capture the base).

-Polaris

Even though I agree Illusive Man lied to Shepard many times, but not here.

EDI had a block on that thing until Normandy is raided by Collectors.
And she said 150 OPERATIVES, not entire manpower.

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Not really.  TIM had a long standing track record as a terrorist and a liar and Dr Grayson was merely the final proof that TIM was lying about "fighting the reapers" as well....or seriously deluded at the very least.  In any event it's pretty clear that Cerberus played Shepard all along.

-Polaris

I don't think you are a very reliable source when it comes to this kind of thing.

I think I am at least as reliable as you.  The books and history (not to mention your missions in ME1) make it very clear that Cerberus is NOT to be trusted.  A point hammered home again many times in ME2 as a warning as well. 

-Polaris

[naledgeborn]

@ Ian

Those mission summaries at the end of every Mass Effect 2 Mission were from TIM's perspective... for himself (note taking). BioWare was just gracious enough to let the players "meta-game" during those instances.

Unless he's got a split personality disorder, yes, I believe what I read at the end of the mission summaries. The fact that you didn't realize this puts the validity of some your arguments in question.

[IanPolaris]

Mesina2 wrote...

Even though I agree Illusive Man lied to Shepard many times, but not here.

EDI had a block on that thing until Normandy is raided by Collectors.
And she said 150 OPERATIVES, not entire manpower.

People wearing Cerberus uniforms openly aren't operatives?  Since when?

I think it's far more reasonable to think that TIM put false information in EDI's databanks so that Shepard would be misled, block or no block.  After all, block or no-block, EDI was an AI rather than a VI and TIM couldn't rely on classified Cerberus data staying secret.  TIM is an inveterate liar and I simply don't believe anything he says.

-Polaris

[CroGamer002]

General User wrote...

He also did damage to the Alliance.  Whereas Shepard's stealing the Normandy ultimately had only positive consequences for every one involved (except the Reapers of course), Anderson's decision to bring the turians in on a counter-Cerberus op has seriously negative (potentially disasterous) consequences for the Alliance.

Well Alliance only needs to do spring-cleaning do to that leak and don't do any evil stuff anymore.


That decision will also strengthen up Alliance, which I view as positive effect for them.

[Seboist]

IanPolaris wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Even though I agree Illusive Man lied to Shepard many times, but not here.

EDI had a block on that thing until Normandy is raided by Collectors.
And she said 150 OPERATIVES, not entire manpower.

People wearing Cerberus uniforms openly aren't operatives?  Since when?

I think it's far more reasonable to think that TIM put false information in EDI's databanks so that Shepard would be misled, block or no block.  After all, block or no-block, EDI was an AI rather than a VI and TIM couldn't rely on classified Cerberus data staying secret.  TIM is an inveterate liar and I simply don't believe anything he says.

-Polaris

Then what the hell was the point of the blocks in the first place?

[IanPolaris]

naledgeborn wrote...

@ Ian

Those mission summaries at the end of every Mass Effect 2 Mission were from TIM's perspective... for himself (note taking). BioWare was just gracious enough to let the players "meta-game" during those instances.

Unless he's got a split personality disorder, yes, I believe what I read at the end of the mission summaries. The fact that you didn't realize this puts the validity of some your arguments in question.

Who says that are from TIM's perspective?  Even if they are supposed to be, do we trust the sourcing.  I don't.  In fact I wouldn't put it past TIM to lie in his own diary if that would further his aims.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Seboist wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Mesina2 wrote...

Even though I agree Illusive Man lied to Shepard many times, but not here.

EDI had a block on that thing until Normandy is raided by Collectors.
And she said 150 OPERATIVES, not entire manpower.

People wearing Cerberus uniforms openly aren't operatives?  Since when?

I think it's far more reasonable to think that TIM put false information in EDI's databanks so that Shepard would be misled, block or no block.  After all, block or no-block, EDI was an AI rather than a VI and TIM couldn't rely on classified Cerberus data staying secret.  TIM is an inveterate liar and I simply don't believe anything he says.

-Polaris

Then what the hell was the point of the blocks in the first place?

Double Blind.  If the information were easy to get at, then it would assumed to be information that wasn't important and this discounted.  Yes, TIM is that twisty.

-Polaris

[naledgeborn]

IanPolaris wrote...

Who says that are from TIM's perspective?  Even if they are supposed to be, do we trust the sourcing.  I don't.  In fact I wouldn't put it past TIM to lie in his own diary if that would further his aims.

-Polaris

Weak argument is weak. I was reading. Not anymore.

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think I am at least as reliable as you.  The books and history (not to mention your missions in ME1) make it very clear that Cerberus is NOT to be trusted.  A point hammered home again many times in ME2 as a warning as well. 

-Polaris

What has Cerberus done that should make me not trust them?

Take that up with the late Admiral Kohoku and his Marines...not to meantion the Marines that died on Akuze.  For that matter, take that up with the Quarians....

-Polaris

[Bad King]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Nope, Cerberus had other motives throughout ME2 as well as capturing Collector tech. If you read the mission complete screens (which show TIM's viewpoint on missions that Shepard has completed), TIM advocates curing the genophage and uniting the geth and quarians. He even claims that destroying the collector base was a victory (if Shepard dies). In Retribution he studies Grayson to try and learn more about the reapers, and when grayson escapes he attempts to terminate him. TIM's siding with the reapers in ME3 is a u-turn that has occurred between ME2 and ME3, not during ME2.

You believe what you read from TIM?  Really?  The comics and books make it very clear that TIM was never telling you the truth not even in the official statements he gives you in ME2.  Cerberus attacks the Salarian base in ME3 to prevent the genophage from being cured.  In addition, Cerberus is now openly allied with the Reapers in ME3.  What's more, it's very reasonable to assume that the Collectors had some base (and not a planet as TIM would have Shepard believe) simply by monitoring and comparing various EM profiles of collector ships.  The small number would indicate a base rather than a planet.

There are various other ways that TIM would be able to guess with a very high level of probability that there was a collector base to capture and that there was an IFF needed to successfully navigate the Omega-4 relay.

In short, look at the information and what TIM acts on and stop taking his word at any face value whatsoever.  TIM is an inveterate liar and needs to be regarded as such.

-Polaris

Yes, in ME3 they are allied with the reapers and attempting to prevent the genophage being from cured, but that's not what they're doing in ME2- their plans have changed. How do the comics and books make it very clear that TIM was never telling the truth in ME2? Please enlighten me- the burden of proof is on you to prove that he always tells lies. Also how do you know that the mission complete screens which we (the player) views are available for Shepard to read? A lot of them have insights into Cerberus plans which they wouldn't want Shepard to know (e.g wanting to recruit captain Bailey) which strongly implies that Shepard never sees them.

[IanPolaris]

naledgeborn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Who says that are from TIM's perspective?  Even if they are supposed to be, do we trust the sourcing.  I don't.  In fact I wouldn't put it past TIM to lie in his own diary if that would further his aims.

-Polaris

Weak argument is weak. I was reading. Not anymore.

No you weren't.  You want to believe what you want to believe.  That was clear from the start.  The fact is that my explaination is the only one that makes reasonble sense given the information we have.  Otherwise Cerberus should be standing shoulder to shoulder with all those trying to fight the Reapers and we know damn well they are doing anything but.

-Polaris

[General User]

Mesina2 wrote...

General User wrote...

He also did damage to the Alliance.  Whereas Shepard's stealing the Normandy ultimately had only positive consequences for every one involved (except the Reapers of course), Anderson's decision to bring the turians in on a counter-Cerberus op has seriously negative (potentially disasterous) consequences for the Alliance.

Well Alliance only needs to do spring-cleaning do to that leak and don't do any evil stuff anymore.


That decision will also strengthen up Alliance, which I view as positive effect for them.

Delivering massive, embarrassing intelligence windfalls into the talons of a rival power is not a good way to strengthen the Alliance.

[naledgeborn]

[/quote]

No you weren't.  You want to believe what you want to believe.  That was clear from the start.  The fact is that my explaination is the only one that makes reasonble sense given the information we have.  Otherwise Cerberus should be standing shoulder to shoulder with all those trying to fight the Reapers and we know damn well they are doing anything but.

-Polaris[/quote]

You wrote that TIM would lie in his own diary if he could. And I'm supposed to take you seriously? Read what you write. Then Proofread again.

It's weak.

[AntiChri5]

Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I think I am at least as reliable as you.  The books and history (not to mention your missions in ME1) make it very clear that Cerberus is NOT to be trusted.  A point hammered home again many times in ME2 as a warning as well. 

-Polaris

What has Cerberus done that should make me not trust them?

Plenty. Not even TIM's voice actor thinks he can be trusted.

[Bad King]

IanPolaris wrote...

naledgeborn wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Who says that are from TIM's perspective?  Even if they are supposed to be, do we trust the sourcing.  I don't.  In fact I wouldn't put it past TIM to lie in his own diary if that would further his aims.

-Polaris

Weak argument is weak. I was reading. Not anymore.

No you weren't.  You want to believe what you want to believe.  That was clear from the start.  The fact is that my explaination is the only one that makes reasonble sense given the information we have.  Otherwise Cerberus should be standing shoulder to shoulder with all those trying to fight the Reapers and we know damn well they are doing anything but.

-Polaris

Why Cerberus is allied with the reapers is one of the major plot mysteries of ME3- the devs have made that clear. We aren't meant to know at this stage why they've changed their plans, we'll only find out when we play the game (although I have theories as to why).

[IanPolaris]

Bad King wrote...

Yes, in ME3 they are allied with the reapers and attempting to prevent the genophage being from cured, but that's not what they're doing in ME2- their plans have changed. How do the comics and books make it very clear that TIM was never telling the truth in ME2? Please enlighten me- the burden of proof is on you to prove that he always tells lies. Also how do you know that the mission complete screens which we (the player) views are available for Shepard to read? A lot of them have insights into Cerberus plans which they wouldn't want Shepard to know (e.g wanting to recruit captain Bailey) which strongly implies that Shepard never sees them.

In that case the locations of Orianna's family would not have been redacted.  Since they were, it's clear that these files were edited for public consumption which means we can't trust them.   As for ME2, we are told over and over again by TIM that Cerberus is fighting the Reapers, but really what does Cerberus really do in ME2 against the Reapers?  Do they invite the council to see the Derelict Reaper for themselves?  no.  Do they share Reaper tech with allies incuding knowledge of indoctrination?  No.  Do they actually do anything to help other races get ready for the Reapers?  No...indeed they try to weaken other races. 

No, it's pretty clear that TIM wanted two things:

1.  Access to the Omega 4 relay.
2.  The collector base and the Reaper Tech motherlode it represented. 

Those are easily worth the cost of bringing Shepard back to life.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

[quote]naledgeborn wrote...



[/quote]

No you weren't.  You want to believe what you want to believe.  That was clear from the start.  The fact is that my explaination is the only one that makes reasonble sense given the information we have.  Otherwise Cerberus should be standing shoulder to shoulder with all those trying to fight the Reapers and we know damn well they are doing anything but.

-Polaris[/quote]

You wrote that TIM would lie in his own diary if he could. And I'm supposed to take you seriously? Read what you write. Then Proofread again.

It's weak.

[/quote]

Not really. Some of the most powerful and paranoid dictators in Earth history lied even in their own diaries (see Ioesef Stalin).  Ioesef Stalin is a piker next to TIM.

-Polaris