198 réponses à ce sujet

[CroGamer002]

IanPolaris wrote...

People wearing Cerberus uniforms openly aren't operatives?  Since when?

-Polaris

/facepalm

Operative doesn't mean just to work in some organization.

Operative means some significantly important person working in some organization like Jacob, Miranda, Kai Leng, Dr. Archer and General Oleg Petrovsky.

[IanPolaris]

Bad King wrote...

Why Cerberus is allied with the reapers is one of the major plot mysteries of ME3- the devs have made that clear. We aren't meant to know at this stage why they've changed their plans, we'll only find out when we play the game (although I have theories as to why).

It's not much of a mystery if you keep your eyes open and look at what happens to anyone that handles infiltered Reaper Tech for any period of time.  Basically (although in fairness TIM might tell himself differently), TIM was playing and lying to Shepard all along in ME2.  That's the simplist (and most logical and reasonable) explaination.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Mesina2 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

People wearing Cerberus uniforms openly aren't operatives?  Since when?

-Polaris

/facepalm

Operative doesn't mean just to work in some organization.

Operative means some significantly important person working in some organization like Jacob, Miranda, Kai Leng, Dr. Archer and General Oleg Petrovsky.

Operative means just that. Someone that performs mission for an organization (usually but not always a covert one).  You are reading stufff into "operative" that isn't there.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Take that up with the late Admiral Kohoku and his Marines...not to meantion the Marines that died on Akuze.  For that matter, take that up with the Quarians....

-Polaris

I'll talk with Kohoku and ou can talk with Admiral Hackett and the Council. Then we both come together and discuss how underhanded everyone in the galaxy is.

You see, if you want me to distrust Cerberus you need to convince me that their motives aren't what they say they are.  That is why I trust them; their motives and goals. I don't trust them not to murder people, but I do trust them do what they think is best to serve and protect humanity. So far nothing they have done has indicated they are not dedicated to this goal.

So when Anderson says "You can't trust Cerberus" I blow him off and leave unless he offers to elaborate. So far Anderson has done more to endanger the galaxy than Cerberus has.

What if what TIM feels is best for humanity is to become part of the Reapers in our next "great step" in evolution so we can dominate all other life.  A Human-Reaper would appeal to TIM.

I think that's pretty twisted myself (so do Miranda and Jacob btw in ME2) but I can easily see TIM thinking exactly along these lines.

-Polaris

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 novembre 2011 - 02:25 .

[CroGamer002]

General User wrote...

Delivering massive, embarrassing intelligence windfalls into the talons of a rival power is not a good way to strengthen the Alliance.

Well Alliance deserved that for trying to be one of the most powerful so quick.


It's just a thing called consequences for braking the rules.

[Bad King]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Yes, in ME3 they are allied with the reapers and attempting to prevent the genophage being from cured, but that's not what they're doing in ME2- their plans have changed. How do the comics and books make it very clear that TIM was never telling the truth in ME2? Please enlighten me- the burden of proof is on you to prove that he always tells lies. Also how do you know that the mission complete screens which we (the player) views are available for Shepard to read? A lot of them have insights into Cerberus plans which they wouldn't want Shepard to know (e.g wanting to recruit captain Bailey) which strongly implies that Shepard never sees them.

In that case the locations of Orianna's family would not have been redacted.  Since they were, it's clear that these files were edited for public consumption which means we can't trust them.   As for ME2, we are told over and over again by TIM that Cerberus is fighting the Reapers, but really what does Cerberus really do in ME2 against the Reapers?  Do they invite the council to see the Derelict Reaper for themselves?  no.  Do they share Reaper tech with allies incuding knowledge of indoctrination?  No.  Do they actually do anything to help other races get ready for the Reapers?  No...indeed they try to weaken other races. 

No, it's pretty clear that TIM wanted two things:

1.  Access to the Omega 4 relay.
2.  The collector base and the Reaper Tech motherlode it represented. 

Those are easily worth the cost of bringing Shepard back to life.

-Polaris

The redacted locations of Orianna's family was TIM covering his tracks in the case of an intelligence leak. They aren't meant to be viewed by anyone, only TIM and possibly (yes only possibly) high ranking Cerberus members are allowed to view them (although there is no evidence to imply that anyone other than TIM has access to them). What do Cerberus do to fight the reapers in ME2? Seriously? How about provide Shepard with recources to destroy the collectors, does that ring a bell? Do they share reaper tech with allies? Last I looked the council were not an ally of Cerberus- as TIM says, diplomacy is difficult when everyone perceives you as a threat. TIM also funded Freedom's Progress with supplies and Cerberus even assassinated a pope in order to improve human-salarian relations.

[IanPolaris]

Bad King wrote...

The redacted locations of Orianna's family was TIM covering his tracks in the case of an intelligence leak. They aren't meant to be viewed by anyone, only TIM and possibly (yes only possibly) high ranking Cerberus members are allowed to view them (although there is no evidence to imply that anyone other than TIM has access to them). What do Cerberus do to fight the reapers in ME2? Seriously? How about provide Shepard with recources to destroy the collectors, does that ring a bell? Do they share reaper tech with allies? Last I looked the council were not an ally of Cerberus- as TIM says, diplomacy is difficult when everyone perceives you as a threat. TIM also funded Freedom's Progress with supplies and Cerberus even assassinated a pope in order to improve human-salarian relations.

The fact that the information was redacted means it was "cleaned" and thus meant for eyes other than that of TIM and THAT means the information can't be trusted as a true insight into TIM's motives and insights.  As for "destroying the collectors" sure.  Cerberus was all for that since that was the most efficient way to get all the Collector tech.  The Collector base is easily worth every penny they spend on Shepard and the Normandy SR2 at least ten times over.  As for why Cerberus doesn't have allies...well that tends to happen when you prove you can't be trusted.

-Polaris

[Bad King]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Why Cerberus is allied with the reapers is one of the major plot mysteries of ME3- the devs have made that clear. We aren't meant to know at this stage why they've changed their plans, we'll only find out when we play the game (although I have theories as to why).

It's not much of a mystery if you keep your eyes open and look at what happens to anyone that handles infiltered Reaper Tech for any period of time.  Basically (although in fairness TIM might tell himself differently), TIM was playing and lying to Shepard all along in ME2.  That's the simplist (and most logical and reasonable) explaination.

-Polaris

You still have provided absolutely no evidence to imply that TIM was lying all the way through ME2 and in every one of his mission complete logs. You'll need some seriously strong evidence to prove this. Also, many people have dabbled in reaper tech before and succeeded- Cerberus with EDI for example and the Turians with the Thanix cannon.

[IanPolaris]

Bad King wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Why Cerberus is allied with the reapers is one of the major plot mysteries of ME3- the devs have made that clear. We aren't meant to know at this stage why they've changed their plans, we'll only find out when we play the game (although I have theories as to why).

It's not much of a mystery if you keep your eyes open and look at what happens to anyone that handles infiltered Reaper Tech for any period of time.  Basically (although in fairness TIM might tell himself differently), TIM was playing and lying to Shepard all along in ME2.  That's the simplist (and most logical and reasonable) explaination.

-Polaris

You still have provided absolutely no evidence to imply that TIM was lying all the way through ME2 and in every one of his mission complete logs. You'll need some seriously strong evidence to prove this. Also, many people have dabbled in reaper tech before and succeeded- Cerberus with EDI for example and the Turians with the Thanix cannon.

I wouldn't take either one of those as an absolute given.  Cerberus is now a Reaper ally and Cerberus (and various Alliance officials) were up to their eyebrows Sovereign appearing in the first place.  That was definatly info not shared with Shepard.  Basically, there are too many "coincidendal" things that happen, many of which put Shepard in direct jeapordy for me to believe a single word TIM says.  The fact we know that Cerberus allies themselves with the Reapers within months of the suicide mission is just the final proof.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

What if what TIM feels is best for humanity is to become part of the Reapers in our next "great step" in evolution so we can dominate all other life.

Then I'd ask him why he wasted so much time and money destroying the Collectors when he could have been helping them intsead. Why waste so much effort and capital?

However considering how hopeless our chances of defeating the Reapers are I think that joining them is an option we should keep on the table.

ORLY?  That's Saren talking and look what happened to him.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for the Collectors, I think it's pretty simple.  Without the Collectors, the Reapers need a new set of tools.  TIM is willing and able to provide on what he thinks are his terms (idiot).

Modifié par IanPolaris, 06 novembre 2011 - 02:34 .

[Bad King]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

The redacted locations of Orianna's family was TIM covering his tracks in the case of an intelligence leak. They aren't meant to be viewed by anyone, only TIM and possibly (yes only possibly) high ranking Cerberus members are allowed to view them (although there is no evidence to imply that anyone other than TIM has access to them). What do Cerberus do to fight the reapers in ME2? Seriously? How about provide Shepard with recources to destroy the collectors, does that ring a bell? Do they share reaper tech with allies? Last I looked the council were not an ally of Cerberus- as TIM says, diplomacy is difficult when everyone perceives you as a threat. TIM also funded Freedom's Progress with supplies and Cerberus even assassinated a pope in order to improve human-salarian relations.

The fact that the information was redacted means it was "cleaned" and thus meant for eyes other than that of TIM and THAT means the information can't be trusted as a true insight into TIM's motives and insights.  As for "destroying the collectors" sure.  Cerberus was all for that since that was the most efficient way to get all the Collector tech.  The Collector base is easily worth every penny they spend on Shepard and the Normandy SR2 at least ten times over.  As for why Cerberus doesn't have allies...well that tends to happen when you prove you can't be trusted.

-Polaris

Or he simply doesn't want an intelligence leak which could lead to Orianna's father discovering her location. In regard to Shepard, Cerberus could have trained a small army to fight the collectors, or even an elite squad without Shepard. This would have been cheaper and/or more effective- Cerberus wanted Shepard for a longer term fight against the reapers- the reapers see him as a threat and this was why TIM competed with the reapers (who used the Shadow Broker) to get Shepard's body.

[CroGamer002]

IanPolaris wrote...

Operative means just that. Someone that performs mission for an organization (usually but not always a covert one).  You are reading stufff into "operative" that isn't there.

-Polaris

In dictionary it has multiple meanings and it pretty much says it's the only meaning.


And have you ever heard or read anywhere that Joker, Shepard, Kenneth, Daniels, Gardner and Kelly are Cerberus operatives?

No.



Did you heard or read anywhere that Illusive Man, Miranda, Jacob, Dr. Gavin Archer, Kai Leng, General Oleg Petrovsky, Colonel Ashe, Paul Grayson, Pel, Dr. Jiro Toshiwa, Wilson, Dr. Chandana, Tyrone Rawlings, Skye Turnick and Dr. Nuri are Cerberus operatives?

Yes.

[IanPolaris]

Bad King wrote...

Or he simply doesn't want an intelligence leak which could lead to Orianna's father discovering her location. In regard to Shepard, Cerberus could have trained a small army to fight the collectors, or even an elite squad without Shepard. This would have been cheaper and/or more effective- Cerberus wanted Shepard for a longer term fight against the reapers- the reapers see him as a threat and this was why TIM competed with the reapers (who used the Shadow Broker) to get Shepard's body.

If TIM believes there is a possible intelligence leak then he won't be revealing his private thoughts in those notes and as such those notes can't be considered evidence of such.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Mesina2 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Operative means just that. Someone that performs mission for an organization (usually but not always a covert one).  You are reading stufff into "operative" that isn't there.

-Polaris

In dictionary it has multiple meanings and it pretty much says it's the only meaning.


And have you ever heard or read anywhere that Joker, Shepard, Kenneth, Daniels, Gardner and Kelly are Cerberus operatives?

No.



Did you heard or read anywhere that Illusive Man, Miranda, Jacob, Dr. Gavin Archer, Kai Leng, General Oleg Petrovsky, Colonel Ashe, Paul Grayson, Pel, Dr. Jiro Toshiwa, Wilson, Dr. Chandana, Tyrone Rawlings, Skye Turnick and Dr. Nuri are Cerberus operatives?

Yes.

From Merriam-Webser's dictionary:

Definition of OPERATIVE


: operator: as a[/i]: artisan, mechanic b[/i]: a secret agent c[/i]: private detective d[/i]: a person who works toward achieving the objectives of a larger interest <political operatives>

In short, I am right.  You are reading too much into the word.

-Polaris

[Bad King]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Or he simply doesn't want an intelligence leak which could lead to Orianna's father discovering her location. In regard to Shepard, Cerberus could have trained a small army to fight the collectors, or even an elite squad without Shepard. This would have been cheaper and/or more effective- Cerberus wanted Shepard for a longer term fight against the reapers- the reapers see him as a threat and this was why TIM competed with the reapers (who used the Shadow Broker) to get Shepard's body.

If TIM believes there is a possible intelligence leak then he won't be revealing his private thoughts in those notes and as such those notes can't be considered evidence of such.

-Polaris

Except this particular note is one which is sought by possibly the wealthiest man in the galaxy and so is material that TIM needs to be more cautious with.

[IanPolaris]

Bad King wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Or he simply doesn't want an intelligence leak which could lead to Orianna's father discovering her location. In regard to Shepard, Cerberus could have trained a small army to fight the collectors, or even an elite squad without Shepard. This would have been cheaper and/or more effective- Cerberus wanted Shepard for a longer term fight against the reapers- the reapers see him as a threat and this was why TIM competed with the reapers (who used the Shadow Broker) to get Shepard's body.

If TIM believes there is a possible intelligence leak then he won't be revealing his private thoughts in those notes and as such those notes can't be considered evidence of such.

-Polaris

Except this particular note is one which is sought by possibly the wealthiest man in the galaxy and so is material that TIM needs to be more cautious with.

TIM doesn't trust ANYONE even to the extend of moving his living quarters from space station to space station in completely secrecy...and with good reason....we know the Shadow Broker (among others) was gunning for TIM.

That being so, then we'd have to assume that TIM would assume that ALL of his notes would be read by others...in which case they would not reflect his private thinking since that gives enemy agents way too much information.  After all it was this sort of mistake that permitted Cerberus to eventually find the Shadow Broker after all.  If you don't think the SB would have returned the favor, you are very much mistaken.

-Polaris

[AntiChri5]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

What has Cerberus done that should make me not trust them?

Plenty. Not even TIM's voice actor thinks he can be trusted.

Martin Sheen's a liberal.

Any excuse to discount evidence that does not agree with your view, right buddy?

Im sure Cerberus has never done anything untrustworthy. They were just labeled a terrorist organisation for funsies.

[Bad King]

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

Bad King wrote...

Or he simply doesn't want an intelligence leak which could lead to Orianna's father discovering her location. In regard to Shepard, Cerberus could have trained a small army to fight the collectors, or even an elite squad without Shepard. This would have been cheaper and/or more effective- Cerberus wanted Shepard for a longer term fight against the reapers- the reapers see him as a threat and this was why TIM competed with the reapers (who used the Shadow Broker) to get Shepard's body.

If TIM believes there is a possible intelligence leak then he won't be revealing his private thoughts in those notes and as such those notes can't be considered evidence of such.

-Polaris

Except this particular note is one which is sought by possibly the wealthiest man in the galaxy and so is material that TIM needs to be more cautious with.

TIM doesn't trust ANYONE even to the extend of moving his living quarters from space station to space station in completely secrecy...and with good reason....we know the Shadow Broker (among others) was gunning for TIM.

That being so, then we'd have to assume that TIM would assume that ALL of his notes would be read by others...in which case they would not reflect his private thinking since that gives enemy agents way too much information.  After all it was this sort of mistake that permitted Cerberus to eventually find the Shadow Broker after all.  If you don't think the SB would have returned the favor, you are very much mistaken.

-Polaris

TIM's 'mission complete' data is likely to be incredibly secure, but he is still uncomfortable with this particular piece of data due to how sought after it is by Miranda's father- who is wealthy, resourceful and seeking data which is related to Orianna. TIM likely has other methods of protecting his data from the SB (who is unlikely to be searching for particular pieces of information, but is rather trying to get any information he can get his hands on, unlike Miranda's father). As I said earlier, if anyone else would have access to these files, it would only be the highest ranking operatives (and we don't have enough evidence to imply even that).