198 réponses à ce sujet

[Seboist]

Being labeled "terrorist" by an entity than employs a space gestapo force like the Spectres is LOL funny. It shows Cerberus is doing some good.

[Takio]

Cerberus's motives are sound, but their execution, consistently endangers humanity and the Galaxy at large.

[Takio]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Takio wrote...

Cerberus's motives are sound, but their execution, consistently endangers humanity and the Galaxy at large.

No it doesn't. The only example I can think of is Overlord, but even that is debatable. They endanger everybody about as much as anyone else does. That's just the nature of Mass Effect.

No Overlord, is not debatable. If released, then it would have been catastrophic. 

The Teltin, project ultimately released a mentally broken super-biotic upon the galaxy. She would go on to launch a Space Station into a moon. 

The attempts to weaponize the Rahni, backfired horribly, and they could potentially have had a new Rachni infestation in the galaxy. 

Their attempts to weaponize Reaper technology produced another potential threat to society, in the form of a super reaperized Saren-esque abomination. 

The sheer amount of times Cerberus has failed, leaves me having no confidence in them. 

[AntiChri5]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Any excuse to discount evidence that does not agree with your view, right buddy?

I was being sarcastic and maybe a bit silly. If you have evidence then show it to me. Martin Sheen saying he doesn't trust the Illusive Man isn't evidence. Anderson doesn't trust him either. Neither does Jacob, or Ashley, or Kaidan, or Joker, or anybody. However most people use a different meaning of "trust" than I do.

As I've explained, I trust TIM is truthful when it comes to his broad goals of advancing mankind. He doesn't elaborate on the specifics and I don't doubt for a moment that he'd have Shepard killed if he got in the way. TIM is not 'my' friend and I've never regarded him as such.

Only one person will ever have a better grasp of a character then the actor playing them, so Sheens opinion holds a lot of weight. He knows what TIM says, what TIM thinks what TIM does and why. He knows when TIM lies.

The problem is how vauge he is about what advances mankind. He feels advancing mankind includes biotics, so he has an entire colony exposed to potentially lethal radiation to get a few dozen test subjects. He is going to impose his vision of what humanity should be on humanity, no matter what humanity has to say about it. He even thinks that his small organisation of hand picked individuals adequately represents humanity.

AntiChri5 wrote...

Im sure Cerberus has never done anything untrustworthy. They were just labeled a terrorist organisation for funsies.

They are labeled terrorists by organizations that have no business trying to take the moral highground. 

They are labeled terrorists by pretty much everyone.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:13 .

[Estelindis]

Mesina2 wrote...

Why don't we also jail Shepard for stealing the Normandy?


Both Anderson and Shepard did what can be considered actions of traitors, but yet none got penalized?
Why?

Cause they did it to stop greater threat.

Shepard to stop Saren once and for all, while Anderson the same with Cerberus.

Even though Cerberus wasn't stopped, they got hit really hard and if didn't joined Reapers they would have crumble by the start of ME3.

Agreed.  Their actions may have broken Alliance protocol, but they were taken for the sake of a greater loyalty to the human race that the Alliance serves and the galactic community of which it is a part.

[AntiChri5]

It does when you are enlisting allies to clean house.

And there was no "selling". They didn't pay him.

[Phaedon]

Say, Saphra, you always said that the ends justify the means, right?

I can understand why "Removing moles from the Alliance, who belong to a group which the Alliance has declared war towards" as an ends doesn't justify "giving Alliance officers to turians" as means for you, as you are actively practicing pagan worship to that naughty Greek doggie who got its ass kicked by a mere demigod.

But, consider this.

Anderson did what he did. He revealed that the Alliance has Cerberus moles in it. That looked bad.

Now, what'd be worse? Arresting someone who just proved that you are infiltrated by terrorists and aided towards their arrest, or letting him go?

Of course, when I say "worse", I am not talking about morality, since as we all know, morality should only be used as a tool that causes wars which in turn create profit, eh, Saphra?

When I say worse, I am talking about what would make you look worse, and what would make you lose popular support, and therefore become less powerful.

[Takio]

deleted, per critical post failure. 

Modifié par Takio, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:24 .

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

Anderson did what he did. He revealed that the Alliance has Cerberus moles in it. That looked bad.

Anderson had bad ends therefore his means aren't justified in the slightest.

The ends made the Alliance more powerful, whilst looking bad, because they directly hurt a faction which the Alliance is actively fighting.

Also, cut the nationalist cr@p. You have, yourself, condemned empathy or loyalty to anything but yourself and what produces the greatest profit. Loyalty to a nation or a federation is unrenegade.

[Takio]

[quote]Takio wrote...

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]Takio wrote...

No Overlord, is not debatable. If released, then it would have been catastrophic. [/quote]

No, I doubt that. Overlord was limited by the Human/VI interface which provided the guts of the VI and is what made it so powerful. However because Overlord is fundamentally based on hardware then there are limits to how much it can control at once. I doubt it could have done much once it reached the Normandy, even if it got to another inhabited system. [/quote] 

Yes, I'm sure the hack of the most advanced warship in space, would have no consequences at all. 

[quote]Takio wrote...

The Teltin, project ultimately released a mentally broken super-biotic upon the galaxy. She would go on to launch a Space Station into a moon. [/quote]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

A biotic who proved very useful in the end on a mission critical to the survival of the human race. [/quote] Not especially, another biotic could be used for the same task. 

[quote]Takio wrote...

The attempts to weaponize the Rahni, backfired horribly, and they could potentially have had a new Rachni infestation in the galaxy. [/quote]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

They had no queen so that's out of the question. Paragon Shepard on the other hand certainly risked this happening. [/quote] 

Actually, I'm fairly sure they had. They had Nest Warriors, so that implies they had some form of reproducing themselves. 

[quote]Takio wrote...

Their attempts to weaponize Reaper technology produced another potential threat to society, in the form of a super reaperized Saren-esque abomination. [/quote]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

The blame for that falls on Anderson and his turian cohorts. It was Cerberus who put an end to that menace with Anderson and Kahlee attempting to stop them all the way. [/quote]

Obviously it was Anderson's fault that they created it, in the first place. 

[quote]Takio wrote...

The sheer amount of times Cerberus has failed, leaves me having no confidence in them. 
[/quote]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

You feel that way because you have a very liberal definition of the word fail. If you actually look at how many Cerberus projects attained their goals you'll be surprised by how often they succeeded, which is quite a lot. Their only real 'failures' are the rachni and Teltin.

[/quote] 

Overlord program to control the Geth? Project not complete and redundant anyway. 

Threser Maw research? Nothing was learned, except a cool way to kill your own soldiers, and it a vengeful soldier was produced. 

Weaponize husks? Nope. 

Reaper research? Nothing I could think of, was learned, except a way to make another Saren. 

Heres, a better question? Can Cerberus, do anything without getting massive amounts of people killed? 

[AntiChri5]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

Only one person will ever have a better grasp of a character then the actor playing them, so Sheens opinion holds a lot of weight.

No, it doesn't.

Sheen is mostly just a voice. He, like almost everyone else who discusses time, neglects to explain himself when he says he doesn't trust the Illusive Man.

Sheen is an actor. Clearly, you don't understand what is involved in that profession at all.

Saphra Deden wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

He is going to impose his vision of what humanity should be on humanity, no matter what humanity has to say about it.

Yeah, that's life. Those with the means and the will rule.

And those with the means and the will stop them.

Saphra Deden wrote...

AntiChri5 wrote...

He even thinks that his small organisation of hand picked individuals adequately represents humanity.

Seeing as they are the only thing that stands between humanity and destruction during the course of ME2, in which those statements are made, he is correct.

First up, he wasn't the only thing satanding between humanity or destruction. The Collectors had one ship, which got it's ass kicked by one alliance placed turret. They could never have taklen earth.

Secondly, even if you were correct, safegaurding something does not mean you represent it. That is absurd.

Saphra Deden wrote...

[AntiChri5 wrote...

They are labeled terrorists by pretty much everyone.

Which means what? Even you should know better than to fall for that fallacy.

Yes, the vast majority of the galaxy thinking you are dangerous criminals means nothing.......

Even i? Shandepard, at least i can post on an internet forum without being banned.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:31 .

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Phaedon wrote...

The ends made the Alliance more powerful,

No, it made the Alliance weaker.

Cerberus never hurts the Alliance, it tries to do the opposite.

Even disregarding the direct conflicts caused by Cerberus (squads of marines dead in ME1, high ranking officials abducted, tortured and murdered), they are a massive resource drain either during the Eden Prime War or afterwards, when the Alliance is weak due to BoC, because raids had to be organized and the Counter Intelligence dept is occupied.

In general, a blow to your enemy is good for you.

That's even more hypocritical of you, btw, because having enemy factions as allies is not "divide and conquer" at all.

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:33 .

[Phaedon]

Not to mention the fact that you are stating that having people who steal your intel and ideas is a good thing. Or in general, that maintaining spies controlled by a faction which you want to exterminate is beneficial to you.

[Phaedon]

Saphra Deden wrote...
A few dead marines wasn't hurting the Alliance. It was such a small matter the Alliance didn't even want to investigate it. Kohoku was poised to hurt the Alliance far more with his deal with the Shadow Broker.

Despite what video games teach you, manpower isn't a simple resource like any other. Training and maintaining marines, or having random marines attacked, lowers morale and costs a lot of money. Also, allowing marines to die gives the enemy faction the chance to think that they can carry out more attacks without consequences which is extremely harmful.

Making a deal with the Shadow Broker was another "ends justify the means" decision. Kahoku gave out the info about some marines missing and what he got was a major info dump on an enemy faction. 

Whether you like it or not, Cerberus is classified as an enemy by the Alliance and they have spent resources combating them.


I'll be back later to see you lose more of your self-respect! 

Modifié par Phaedon, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:42 .

[Nohvarr]

Deden is either trolling, in which case we're feeding the individual, or the poster actually believes what they are writing. Either way, there is no point in continuing this discussion. Anderson is not in Jail, and appears to leading humanity in it's darkest hour while Cerberus forces are trying to kill you and sabotage your attempts to save the galaxy (which includes humans). Deden is free to rant about that, it dosen't impact anyone on the forum or the game itself.

Modifié par Nohvarr, 06 novembre 2011 - 03:43 .