141 réponses à ce sujet

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

SNascimento wrote...

That would be valid if the storm was the only threat.. but what if there was an enemy army invading your country? What would you do with your carriers? Use them to fight the enemy or to evacuate civilizans from a place being destroyed by the storm (where it's all but certain that it will be destroyed without doing anything)? Sending a dreadnought to the middle of a city under siege by the reapers is choosing the latter option, which doesn't make sense.
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My guess from the intro is that the Alliance fleet run away as soon as they saw the reapers. But this is another story. 

In the event where an enemy had the ability to invade through a storm that is wiping out a country, you'd just split your forces appropriatly (and suicidally) to delay the invasion as much as possible while you used the rest of your forces to evacuate the people that make up your country.

Using the dreadnought to try and buy time to evacuate civilians makes perfect sense.  It just didn't work out very well for the dreadnought.

[Blacklash93]

You could see the cannon in some ME1 scenes. At the battle of the citadel when Sovy crashes through a Cruiser you can see it between its tentacles. It seemed to be missing in other scenes, though.

Bioware redesigning the main gun to be smaller is just my guess.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Mass Effect fields work to counter gravity, but they only have so much power. The kind of mass effect field needed to allow a dreadnought to land on a planet would require a massive element zero core. The kind only found in Reapers.

That's a great theory, and I respect that you believe that.  But can you prove it with a link to a codex entry from the wiki?  You might be right... but I think that you're assuming only Reapers can do that when in fact Alliance dreadnoughts can do it to... so long as they don't land.  I would bet that their lower structure isn't designed support all the upper decks, which is probably why they pancake when they land.

[Anacronian Stryx]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

Fixes underlined.  I don't mean these to insult you.

You can't insult me, so don't worry about it.

Mass Effect fields work to counter gravity, but they only have so much power. The kind of mass effect field needed to allow a dreadnought to land on a planet would require a massive element zero core. The kind only found in Reapers.

Nonsense if you can lower your mass enough to go from non-C speeds to excess of 200+C then you can definitely lower your mass by orders of magnitude comparable to your starting mass.

[Shinannigan]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

That is a terrible analogy.
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Dreadnoughts are not soliders. If a soldier dies, it doesn't matter that much. If a dreadnought is destroyed, you suffer a heavy blow to your forces.
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So, a better analogy is sending an aircraft carrier fully armed to the midle of a storm to save people. No only the carrier will do no good whatsoever, it will also be certainly destroyed. 

Reapers are not storms.  Reapers are a threat to the entire species. 

When faced with a "storm" that threatened to wipe out an entire country, I guarantee that any given country *would* send all of its aircraft carriers to evacuate people even if it meant only 1 out of eight escaped.

That's kinda true.

The sensibility of that manoeuver depends on whether the Reapers will have smaller support vessels. If it's only an invasion of capital ships with pretty unstoppable cannons, the sensible thing to do is to send all your available shuttles and gunships to evacuate Civilians while your Dreadnoughts retreat to a safe distance and wait there to pick up the shuttles. A thousand small, mobile targets are harder to shoot down than a dozen dreadnoughts. however, even then the distance the shuttles would have to cover would make it pretty hard to fly multiple trips and rescue a decent number of civilians, so even though it's risky, it'd be understandable to try and make the route for the shuttles as short as possible and hope that the superiour armour of the Dreadnought can take enough punishment (there's no such thing as hindsight in spur-of-the-moment tactical decisions).

However, just because we haven't seen smaller Reaper vessels, we can't be sure that there are none. In fact, the E3 news report trailer spoke of Reaper gunships (the german newscaster mentioned them, but they were also mentioned in the news-scroll-subtitles). If there are Reaper gunships, then sending only shuttles to the rescue would be an equally stupid idea to begin with.

[SNascimento]

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

That would be valid if the storm was the only threat.. but what if there was an enemy army invading your country? What would you do with your carriers? Use them to fight the enemy or to evacuate civilizans from a place being destroyed by the storm (where it's all but certain that it will be destroyed without doing anything)? Sending a dreadnought to the middle of a city under siege by the reapers is choosing the latter option, which doesn't make sense.
.
My guess from the intro is that the Alliance fleet run away as soon as they saw the reapers. But this is another story. 

In the event where an enemy had the ability to invade through a storm that is wiping out a country, you'd just split your forces appropriatly (and suicidally) to delay the invasion as much as possible while you used the rest of your forces to evacuate the people that make up your country.

Using the dreadnought to try and buy time to evacuate civilians makes perfect sense.  It just didn't work out very well for the dreadnought.

.
So, if you are saying that the best use for your greatest  war asset is to throw it away trying to rescue a few civilians is the right thing to do, there is nothing more to say.
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But plase, think about it. You have eight dreadnoughts, are you going to commit them in a IMPOSSIBLE RESCUE operation in a city under siege by the reapers where the main strengths of the ship are totally annulled? Can this even make sense?
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Whatever... 

[dreman9999]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Since when can human dreadnoughts enter atmosphere like that? The fact that Sovereign could do it was made it stand out. Human ships of that size (or of any other race) aren't supposed to be able to do that. It'd fall like a rock.

They can, just with the mass effect field off.

[dreman9999]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

Btw, cruisers can land on a low gravity planet... and that dreadnought ( ) is almost equal to a cruiser. So...

Fun Fact: Earth is not the kind of planet a cruiser would land on because it wouldn't be able to take off again!

I don't think they were worried about that.

[Robhuzz]

SNascimento wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

That is a terrible analogy.
.
Dreadnoughts are not soliders. If a soldier dies, it doesn't matter that much. If a dreadnought is destroyed, you suffer a heavy blow to your forces.
.
So, a better analogy is sending an aircraft carrier fully armed to the midle of a storm to save people. No only the carrier will do no good whatsoever, it will also be certainly destroyed. 

Reapers are not storms.  Reapers are a threat to the entire species. 

When faced with a "storm" that threatened to wipe out an entire country, I guarantee that any given country *would* send all of its aircraft carriers to evacuate people even if it meant only 1 out of eight escaped.

.
That would be valid if the storm was the only threat.. but what if there was an enemy army invading your country? What would you do with your carriers? Use them to fight the enemy or to evacuate civilizans from a place being destroyed by the storm (where it's all but certain that it will be destroyed without doing anything)? Sending a dreadnought to the middle of a city under siege by the reapers is choosing the latter option, which doesn't make sense.
.
My guess from the intro is that the Alliance fleet run away as soon as they saw the reapers. But this is another story. 

In the leaked beta, Andersson says the Reapers cut right through their defences. Indicating that the Alliance ships did try to stop the Reaper invasion but (obviously) failed.

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Saphra Deden wrote...

RinpocheSchnozberry wrote...

That's a great theory, and I respect that you believe that.

It's not a "theory", it is how they work. I'm not retrieving the codex for you. Do it yourself. Go to the wiki and look for "mass effect field".

Done.  Mass Effect Field.  There's nothing that backs up your point, sorry! 

[Wulfram]

Even ignoring the atmosphere and the gravity screwing up your maneuverability, there's the problem that you've got a great big planet getting in the way of your shots.

The codex says Dreadnoughts are supposed to be engaging at 1000s of kilometres, not trading blows right next to each other. Though in fairness, the codex and the cinematics have always clashed - the codex reads like it was written by fans of the Honor Harrington books, the cinematics are pretty much Star Wars.

[SNascimento]

Robhuzz wrote...
In the leaked beta, Andersson says the Reapers cut right through their defences. Indicating that the Alliance ships did try to stop the Reaper invasion but (obviously) failed.

.
He also says them didn't get an message from Admiral Hackett, so he has no idea what happed to the fleet that was guardian Earth.

[SNascimento]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

Btw, cruisers can land on a low gravity planet... and that dreadnought ( ) is almost equal to a cruiser. So...

Fun Fact: Earth is not the kind of planet a cruiser would land on because it wouldn't be able to take off again!

.
So, you are saying Earth is not a low gravity planet? How can you support that? That definition is a Mass Effect thing, so if they can classify Earth as they want to.

[Shinannigan]

SNascimento wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...
In the leaked beta, Andersson says the Reapers cut right through their defences. Indicating that the Alliance ships did try to stop the Reaper invasion but (obviously) failed.

.
He also says them didn't get an message from Admiral Hackett, so he has no idea what happed to the fleet that was guardian Earth.

The defense committee also says they lost contact with everything beyond Sol Relay and they seem only worried about a couple of colonies, since they don't mention that that means they have lost contact with Alliance Gouvernment, Admiralty and presumably most of the Allied Fleet on Arcturus Station.

So how Hackett survived if the Reapers have reached Earth, meaning they had to come by Arcturus Station, is anybody's guess.

Modifié par Shinannigan, 06 novembre 2011 - 04:03 .

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

SNascimento wrote...
.
So, if you are saying that the best use for your greatest  war asset is to throw it away trying to rescue a few civilians is the right thing to do, there is nothing more to say.
.

But plase, think about it. You have eight dreadnoughts, are you going to commit them in a IMPOSSIBLE RESCUE operation in a city under siege by the reapers where the main strengths of the ship are totally annulled? Can this even make sense?
.
Whatever... 

If, by not using your military, you abandon the civilians that make up your country, you gain nothing.  So committing all your dreadnoughts is phyrric.  Commiting one to rescue the people that the dreadnoughts possible is not.  That's all the Alliance did on Earth... protected who they could by sacrificing only who they needed to.

[SNascimento]

Saphra Deden wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

So, you are saying Earth is not a low gravity planet? How can you support that? That definition is a Mass Effect thing, so if they can classify Earth as they want to.

Oh my god, nevermind.

.
What? You think I don't know what gravity is? Your the problem involving a massive ship landing on a planet?

[SNascimento]

Shinannigan wrote...

SNascimento wrote...

Robhuzz wrote...
In the leaked beta, Andersson says the Reapers cut right through their defences. Indicating that the Alliance ships did try to stop the Reaper invasion but (obviously) failed.

.
He also says them didn't get an message from Admiral Hackett, so he has no idea what happed to the fleet that was guardian Earth.

The defense committee also says they lost contact with everything beyond Sol Relay and they seem only worried about a couple of colonies, since they don't mention that that means they have lost contact with Alliance Gouvernment, Admiralty and presumably most of the Allied Fleet on Arcturus Station.

So how Hackett survived if the Reapers have reached Earth, meaning they had to come by Arcturus Station, is anybody's guess.

.
From I understood, the main fleet repositioned itself on Earth's orbit. And that is where admiral Hackett is. 

[RinpocheSchnozberry]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Right here: " The Mako's small element zero core can reduce the vehicle's mass enough to allow a safe drop from the Normandy."

To reduce the mass of a dreadnought enough to allow it to land on a planet the size of Earth would require a disproportionately large mass effect core. Dreadnoughts don't have cores large enough for that because they aren't designed to land on planets in the first place.

Those are all assumptions on your part.  You have no evidence that describes the relationship between eezo mass to gravity cancelled beyond "a small core can support a huge tank."  No one outside of BioWare can say definitively that a dreadnought's core isn't strong enough to let it hover inside an atmosphere.  The closest you can come is the entry that says they can't land.