159 réponses à ce sujet

[StanojeZ]

Or as dramatic, or as sad.

That's why paraphrasing dialoge choices is better than writing them out fully - it undercuts the actual delivery, which is where the emotion happens. No paraphrasing means no surprise. And without surprise, there won't be a lot of humor.

[whykikyouwhy]

A fair point in favor of paraphrasing, which I am a proponent of (having a screen choked up with full and potentially long lines of text may be distracting). Give me a good VA, a rich story, and some hints at what the dialogue may be, and I'm a happy player.

Modifié par whykikyouwhy, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:20 .

[Deathwurm]

I really didn't have any problems with the paraphrasing in DA2 and I agree with the OP's point.

I didn't encounter a single time that my Hawke said something that went against what the Icons indicated he would.

[Vegos]

Paraphrasing, if executed well, can be a really great tool, indeed. And so far, BioWare has done well in that field. Actually I find myself trying to guess what my character's exact words is going to say before I hit the dialog option. Sometimes I guess it, true, but sometimes it really delivers a punchline.

[Salaya]

 I don't see the reason to suppor that. I have laughed by the warden lines more than with the obvious jokes of sarcastic-shepard hawke.

If dramataic stences weren't dramatic per se, I think literature should start pharaphrasing too. The surprise of what is going to be said is not always a pleasant one. The emotion comes when understanding the sentence, and that's something that comes with both systems. 

But even if you were right, I don't see any reason not to show the full line when hovering syntesized key-words. Reading them is optional. 

Modifié par Salaya, 07 novembre 2011 - 01:44 .

[FrostyLazer]

It only works if there is a good VA. There where some lines where there was no emotion in the voice itself. There it would have been better to read the line itself

[GodWood]

I prioritize roleplaying over having my PC suprise me with a joke.

[Vegos]

GodWood wrote...

I prioritize roleplaying over having my PC suprise me with a joke.

Well, in order for that to happen, you'd have to roleplay a snarky Hawke in the first place, so it would be the priority.

[SpockLives]

Personally, I didn't know I was buying a comedy game. I thought I was buying an RPG. You know, the kind of game that has role playing and choices. Of course, I was wrong about being able to make choices that matter, so maybe I was wrong about the game not being meant to be a comedy. But DA:O's comedy was far better and they accomplished it without a voiced protagonist. (And I always selected the middle option in DA2.) However, the OP has given me a new way to look at DA2 - as a big joke. Too bad the joke was on me.

[Vegos]

SpockLives wrote...

(And I always selected the middle option in DA2.)

No wonder it felt like comedy to you then...

I find it rather funny, I actually consider the dialog in DA2 one of the few things that have been done right...

[GodWood]

Vegos wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I prioritize roleplaying over having my PC suprise me with a joke.

Well, in order for that to happen, you'd have to roleplay a snarky Hawke in the first place, so it would be the priority.

An aggressive Hawke could tell a joke.
So to see if it was an appropriate in-character joke for him to tell I'd need to see the full line.


But of course I hate both these options. I want a silent PC dammit!

[Teddie Sage]

I enjoyed the game's lines, I don't care about paraphrasing.

[Arthur Cousland]

I didn't mind the DA2 dialogue system too much, though there were a few instances where my sarcastic Hawke would come across as an a**hole, when I intended for him to say something funny. In this case, I have to recall dialogue from previous playthroughs just to keep my Hawke from saying something unintended.

[Cutlass Jack]

StanojeZ wrote...

Or as dramatic, or as sad.

That's why paraphrasing dialoge choices is better than writing them out fully - it undercuts the actual delivery, which is where the emotion happens. No paraphrasing means no surprise. And without surprise, there won't be a lot of humor.

Its why I prefer paraphrasing in a game where I have a voice. Lack of it lowers the entertainment value of all types of conversations.

That said, DA needs to improve its paraphrasing. I wasn't tripped up by it, but apparently many others were.

[Gibb_Shepard]

There wasn't even a need for paraphrasing in DA2, you just had to look at the icon and you could guess what Hawke was going to say.

[KilrB]

Since there wasn't anything funny, dramatic, or sad in DA2 I fail to see your point.

[Pygmali0n]

If you prefer to watch a film than play a game then I can understand the OP.

But Stan, you've hit on one of my favourite points about story. The need for surprise and therefore suspense.

The moment of surprise in a role playing game such as DA:O isn't lost, it came with reading the line - or imagining your character thinking and saying it. And thought does usually come a split second ahead of speech. It did not detract from the flow of a scene as the voice in my head, in anyone's head, is good enough to convey emotion and is actually a lot more versatile, thank you.

One massive and overriding benefit of having many lines of dialogue to choose from is that like real life you can consider what you say before opening your gob and letting anything spill out. This enhanced pathos, bathos, everything, because you imagine reactions and choices you did not take as well as those you eventually do.

This leads to you taking a much more active involvement in the character played, rather than watching a narrow portrayal - the like of which in this case made the greater part of the audience actively dislike and reject Hawke (and you couldn't call yourself a mere audience in DA:O).

And besides all the humour in DA2 came from companions - nothing Hawke said was actually funny - unlike the Warden, who had a wicked sense of humour if you so chose.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 07 novembre 2011 - 03:57 .

[Cutlass Jack]

Pygmali0n wrote...

And besides all the humour in DA2 came from companions - nothing Hawke said was actually funny - unlike the Warden, who had a wicked sense of humour if you so chose.

You must have played a very different version of both those games than I did. Nearly all the memorable lines in DAO came from companions, but in DA2 you could actually be a part of the best bits.

[happy_daiz]

^ Exactly. My femHawkes were hilarious. My Wardens, on the other hand, didn't actually speak.  

Modifié par happy_daiz, 07 novembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[Pedrak]

Show the exact phrase only if players right-click on the paraphrase. So, everybody wins: those who want to know precisely what is going to be said and those who don't and prefer to be surprised by their own character.

I can't think of a single reason this feature shouldn't be in.

Ok, maybe one: this way it would be a lot more noticeable than it is now with the great "dialogue wheel of paraphrasing" if different approaches brought the same answer... and cutting corners in dialogues would be more problematic...

Modifié par Pedrak, 07 novembre 2011 - 04:39 .

[Brad79]

I guess it depends on how important the "role playing" portion of the game is to you. I've never played a pen and paper rpg, but my understanding of the traditional rpg is that the player plays a big part in crafting the story, including dialogue. You're a key actor in the story and get to improvise at will. In a traditional rpg there really is no surprise as to what your character is going to say, because you're the one playing the role obviously. In DA:2 though, you're more like the director than actor when it comes to dialogue You're giving general direction, but still an observer when it comes to how things play out. I really don't mind it at all, but I can definitely see how some traditional rpg fans could be unhappy with the paraphrase system Bioware has been going with.

[alex90c]

happy_daiz wrote...

^ Exactly. My femHawkes were hilarious. My Wardens, on the other hand, didn't actually speak.  

Mine did. He picked up a greatsword, charged at the archdemon and then went GRAAAAAAGHHHHHHHHH

BEST. MOMENT. EVER.

[happy_daiz]

^ Touché. LOL  

Modifié par happy_daiz, 07 novembre 2011 - 04:50 .

[Brockololly]

Eh....but at least with the full text dialogue, you can see all of the possible dialogue responses in advance, so you can see any possibly funny dialogue even if you don't select it.

Its not as much about the PC's lines being funny its more about seeing the reaction of the NPC to the PC's lines, IMO. Like how Wynne responds when your Warden goes dumb with the "Griffins?" lines. If you had paraphrases you'd never necessarily know those lines existed.

The surprise shouldn't come in the PC's lines, it should come in how the NPC reacts to the PC.

Modifié par Brockololly, 07 novembre 2011 - 05:08 .

[Pygmali0n]

Cutlass Jack wrote...

Pygmali0n wrote...

And besides all the humour in DA2 came from companions - nothing Hawke said was actually funny - unlike the Warden, who had a wicked sense of humour if you so chose.

You must have played a very different version of both those games than I did. Nearly all the memorable lines in DAO came from companions, but in DA2 you could actually be a part of the best bits.

The great thing about DA:O was that everybody could play a different game. The Warden could actually be funnier than a companion, though sometimes at the risk of offending them,
___________________
EDIT - but often because of amazing potential for ambiguity in the written line, as opposed to the mess professional actors and directors can make of fantasy that they think is nonsense...

Here's a well-known example. Take Joss Whedon's line in X-Men: 'You know what happens when a toad gets struck by lightning? The same thing that happens to everything else.'. Believe it or not it's not a bad line by itself, only Halle Berry delivered it as though it was Shakespeare, when it was meant to be delivered very casually (If you still don't think Whedon knew what he was doing, note he also wrote the Wolverine 'You're a dick' line).
___________________

Every, and I mean every, 'hey this is going to be funny' comedy mask response by Hawke is lame and falls flat. I even tried a fem Hawke recently to see if what DA2 fans were saying was true, but no, it's the same lines and a slightly better delivery does not improve them.

But regardless of the quality of the writing, would you be able to respond to the thread topic and my main point and link your preference to the actual mechanic of paraphrasing and the wheel? If anything the 'This is going to be kind - This is going to be funny - This is going to be mean' layout undermines surprise and sets up expecatations which it often fails to deliver upon. It also feels more than a little patronising (partly because it was a step back in complexity and flexibility of choices).

Brockololly wrote...

Eh....but at least with the full text dialogue, you can see all of the possible dialogue responses in advance, so you can see any possibly funny dialogue even if you don't select it.

Its not as much about the PC's lines being funny its more about seeing the reaction of the NPC to the PC's lines, IMO. Like how Wynne responds when your Warden goes dumb with the "Griffins?" lines. If you had paraphrases you'd never necessarily know those lines existed.

The surprise shouldn't come in the PC's lines, it should come in how the NPC reacts to the PC.

Great point Brock - I did think of this too for a moment but got sidetracked. NPCs in DA2 seem to let Hawke get away with whatever mood response is clicked.

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 08 novembre 2011 - 04:43 .