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[DDayDodger]

   So after playing the game through 3 times and majoring in Greek and Roman studies at university I have come to believe that the battle of ostagar could have been won even without the help of Loghain. If Cailan had equipped and trained his army in the use of a long pike (i.e. the sarissa), like that of Alexander the Great or Philip II the ground he chose would have made his position virtually impregnable.
   The ruins of ostagar basically created a giant choke point where one could slowly funnel in the darkspawn and they wouldnt be able to use their weapons without decapitating their compatriots. Also the massive of range of say a 12 foot long pike would negate any ability for the darkspawn to come to grips with Cailan's army. In the meantime the darkspawn are getting shot by archers and mages on the bridge and ramparts which are above the battlefield. The raised ground would also have given the ability for archers and mages to focus any targets which could have broken up this theoretical phalanx, like ogres etc. as well give Cailan a strategic view of the battlefield to deploy reserves if necessary.
    Also the psychology of the darkspawn would have worked against them in this case, as I assume they are something like a zombie, intrinsically drawn to kill and so would have simply kept pushing against this impregnable phalanx rather than trying to flank it or otherwise.
   Finally you could use the wardogs as something similar to heavy cavalry, and deploy them in a flanking position roughly where Loghain was. Even if darkspawn are not subject to panic or morale, they would take extremely heavy casualties from a charge by a line of 100 pound wardogs. Also they wouldnt be part of Loghain's force and so wouldn't turn their asses and run. 
   These are just my musings bear in mind, but Cailan chose and prepared the perfect ground for an Alexander the Great style phalanx battle, he simply failed to exploit his geographical advantage.

[Corker]

The darkspawn were employing heavy artillery of some kind (either mechanical or biological, e.g., ogres throwing rocks), and taking big bites out of the bridge at Ostagar. If the Fereldens had stayed in a tight defensive formation, they would have gotten flattened by a flying boulder or ten eventually.

The Archdemon controls the darkspawn a bit more intelligently during a Blight. In the Deep Roads, they show the ability to set up archers in encircling positions and other sensible tactics. They may have other large unit tactics besides "crushing horde" at their disposal as well.

But yes, spears were a staple of ancient warfare.

Modifié par Corker, 07 novembre 2011 - 09:54 .

[Costin_Razvan]

Corker wrote...

The darkspawn were employing heavy artillery of some kind (either mechanical or biological, e.g., ogres throwing rocks), and taking big bites out of the bridge at Ostagar. If the Fereldens had stayed in a tight defensive formation, they would have gotten flattened by a flying boulder or ten eventually.

The Archdemon controls the darkspawn a bit more intelligently during a Blight. In the Deep Roads, they show the ability to set up archers in encircling positions and other sensible tactics. They may have other large unit tactics besides "crushing horde" at their disposal as well.

But yes, spears were a staple of ancient warfare.

Pike Formations and Shield Walls have withstood artilerly before. Hell the Swiss used pikes in a age with cannons being common on a battlefield, and did so very effectively. 

A deep formation of hundreds of Fereldans 10-20 people's deep would have withstood the Ogres. Especially with Loghain's attack. It was incredibly stupid for Cailan to charge as he did.

The OP is right.

 No, the battle could have only been won if the Archdemon was slain. Otherwise, darkspawn would've kept pouring out of the Deep Roads until the king's army was completely overwhelmed and destroyed.

Not really no. There would have been a series of battles not just one single never ending battle, that's not how it goes.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 07 novembre 2011 - 10:36 .

[Callidus Thorn]

Considering the darkspawn had taken the tower of Ishal from below, defensively Ostagar was nothing more than a deathtrap. Without the Warden and Alistair the darkspawn probably would've swarmed out from the tower, taking the bridge and raining arrows down on Cailan's army.

[Kaldelar]

The ancients had many clever tactics at their disposal (the battle at Marathon stands out, where the Athenians used the lay of the land and superior strategy to overcome the Persian warmachine) that were lost in the ages to come. Seeing as Thedas is set in a medieval fantasy setting, the level of tactics you're proposing seems... out of character.
But that also raises another question: what if Loghain had thought of such a strategy and then put himself in this needed position (choosing not to tell Cailan about it or of the spears if such existed, and from what we saw of Cailan, he was perhaps not the best of strategists) so he could withdraw and leave Cailan to die?

[Glorfindel709]

Let's not forget the tunneling abilities of the Darkspawn. As a poster above stated, they burrowed through and attacked the Tower of Ishal from below. Genlocks burst from the Earth in the Wilds multiple times. There's no reason to suggest that they couldnt have just bypassed the pikes all together with tactical use of tunneling.

[tklivory]

I think the main point of the OP is valid: the battle that night at Ostagar (not the war) could have been won. There is no evidence in the narrative that there were sufficient Darkspawn troops in the area that could have been deployed in enough numbers to effectively wage a true war of attrition against the Fereldan forces *at that time*. Remember, it takes 1-2 years for the Archdemon to gather enough forces before marching on Denerim, and that was after *winning* the battle at Ostagar. The skirmishes at Ostagar were simply that - skirmishes, each side testing the mettle and skill of the other.

Certainly, there are cases in history where a small force has managed to hold off (for a time) a larger force (Leonidas and the 300, the Battle of Salamis, the Battle of the Red Cliff) through the use of tactics, strategy, and cunning use of the geography and the enemy's weaknesses. The battle of Ostagar was never (in anyone but Cailan's mind, at least) the end of the Blight (certainly it wasn't to Duncan or Loghain), but it would have bought time for the Orlesians or Arl Emaon's forces to arrive (as at the time they also didn't know that Eamon was incapacitated, depending on when he was poisoned).

The theoretical question was whether the battle of Ostagar would have gone differently with pike, and I think the answer is definitely yes. After all, they had 'won' previous battles. The battle that resulted in Cailan's death was just a larger battle of that nature, not a final showdown (again, no matter what Cailan believed in his 'glorious' delusions).

Would the Blight have ended with that battle? No.  But it certainly would have meant more than just two recruit Grey Wardens left to fight against it.

Modifié par tklivory, 08 novembre 2011 - 05:14 .

[Vegos]

tklivory wrote...

I think the main point of the OP is valid: the battle that night at Ostagar (not the war) could have been won. There is no evidence in the narrative that there were sufficient Darkspawn troops in the area that could have been deployed in enough numbers to effectively wage a true war of attrition against the Fereldan forces *at that time*. Remember, it takes 1-2 years for the Archdemon to gather enough forces before marching on Denerim, and that was after *winning* the battle at Ostagar. The skirmishes at Ostagar were simply that - skirmishes, each side testing the mettle and skill of the other.

Certainly, there are cases in history where a small force has managed to hold off (for a time) a larger force (Leonidas and the 300, the Battle of Salamis, the Battle of the Red Cliff) through the use of tactics, strategy, and cunning use of the geography and the enemy's weaknesses. The battle of Ostagar was never (in anyone but Cailan's mind, at least) the end of the Blight (certainly it wasn't to Duncan or Loghain), but it would have bought time for the Orlesians or Arl Emaon's forces to arrive (as at the time they also didn't know that Eamon was incapacitated, depending on when he was poisoned).

The theoretical question was whether the battle of Ostagar would have gone differently with pike, and I think the answer is definitely yes. After all, they had 'won' previous battles. The battle that resulted in Cailan's death was just a larger battle of that nature, not a final showdown (again, no matter what Cailan believed in his 'glorious' delusions).

Would the Blight have ended with that battle? No.  But it certainly would have meant more than just two recruit Grey Wardens left to fight against it.

This, basically.

Then again, with only two remaining Wardens against a Blight, the sheer urgency of the situation lead to some superhuman efforts and superhuman victories. Would the same have happened if the Wardens could "slack" with the King's army still operational? It's hard to tell.

[tklivory]

greengoron89 wrote...

No, definitely not two years - I believe Codex entries in DA2 confirm the Fifth Blight from Ostagar to Denerim takes place over the course of about a year (which even then feels like a stretch - there is no obvious indication when playing the game that a whole year passes by in the process).

1-2 years is just the general time that proposed by those who actually sat down with the map and worked out travel distances, estimating everything as it would have been traveled on foot (as horses are neither shown or referenced to in Fereldan during the game).  It is easy to discount traveling time during the game because you don't actually see it and it is always night at camp and day in cities.  However, a realistic examination of the maps and estimated travel distances has been done, and thus the 1-2 year estimate was produced.  Remember, Dagna states it takes at least two weeks and four days to make the round trip from Orzammar to Lake Caledhan.  And that is a relatively short distance on the world map.  Imagine how long it takes to travel, on foot, from Denerim to Haven, if that is a basis for travel time (and you can't go to Haven unless you've gone to Denerim first according to the story).  And that's also if you don't do the Denerim/Spoiled Princess/Denerim/Haven round trip, thus adding a significant amount of time.

Depending on what order you do the quests, it takes anywhere from 1-2 years to do all major Treaty quests and Eamon.  Obviously, this number is malleable based on what order the Warden is dictated to proceed by the player.

I can't speak to DA2 specifically, as I haven't played it, but my impression of it is that its 'canon' as regards to DA:O events is, to put it mildly, not very well thought out.

At any rate, even if you assume only 1 year, that is still a pretty long amount of time required to gather sufficient forces to formalize an invasion of a major population center, so my point does still stand re: how many Darkspawn were likely at Ostagar the night of that battle, especially since the Archdemon wasn't present (and was likely still in the Deep Roads at the time).  The implication in the Deep Roads was that the Archdemon was in the Deep Trenches until the Wardens arrived to see the troops marching out en masse.

Modifié par tklivory, 08 novembre 2011 - 06:06 .

[gandanlin]

We only see part of the surface battle, so it is hard to say what influence a pike formation would or would not have had on the final outcome. Once we enter the Tower of Ishal, what goes on outside is a complete mystery. My recollection was that things did not look good for Cailan.

[Addai]

Kaldelar wrote...

The ancients had many clever tactics at their disposal (the battle at Marathon stands out, where the Athenians used the lay of the land and superior strategy to overcome the Persian warmachine) that were lost in the ages to come. Seeing as Thedas is set in a medieval fantasy setting, the level of tactics you're proposing seems... out of character.
But that also raises another question: what if Loghain had thought of such a strategy and then put himself in this needed position (choosing not to tell Cailan about it or of the spears if such existed, and from what we saw of Cailan, he was perhaps not the best of strategists) so he could withdraw and leave Cailan to die?

Medieval armies knew and used pike formations.  As Costin said, the Swiss were really good at it.  The Vikings and Anglo-Saxons also used them.  Having fought chevaliers, I can't imagine that the Fereldans never developed pikes, even if you don't see them in the game.

I don't know if it would have changed the outcome, but a shield wall would definitely make more sense than the mabari charge you see.  I don't think the intent was for Cailan to hold out for long.  It's hard to say because you can't see the layout very well, but it seems to me he was just supposed to hold until all the darkspawn were in the narrow valley and then Loghain sweeps around to make an enclosure.  Only the darkspawn numbers were much greater than anyone anticipated, and you can see from the line of torches that there's no end to them.  The mages were apparently supposed to take some of the pressure off, but they fled early.  Putting yourself in a bottleneck with no retreat- I guess that is meant to show Cailan's overconfidence.

Modifié par Addai67, 09 novembre 2011 - 12:15 .

[Costin_Razvan]

I guess that is meant to show Cailan's overconfidence.

Stupidity more like it.

I don't know if it would have changed the outcome, but a shield wall would definitely make more sense than the mabari charge you see.

A shield wall with ditches, palisades, stakes definitively.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Battle of Ostagar, could it have been won with a pike phalanx?

No.

I defer to others' knowledge when it comes to defending against artillery, successfully or otherwise, but since there's nothing in game that grants 100% magic, elemental and taint resistance, I'm fairly certain a pike phalanx wouldn't have been equipped or able to withstand magic.

Alternately, since sword and shield warriors don't have Indomitable (read: stun resistance), send in the Shrieks with Terrorize.

I am not saying Ostagar could or couldn't have been won with better plans, just that saying 'they could have won with a phalanx!' is, IMO, unlikely in a world where Virulent Walking Bomb exists.

[Costin_Razvan]

I defer to others' knowledge when it comes to defending against artillery, successfully or otherwise, but since there's nothing in game that grants 100% magic, elemental and taint resistance, I'm fairly certain a pike phalanx wouldn't have been equipped or able to withstand magic.

Alternately, since sword and shield warriors don't have Indomitable (read: stun resistance), send in the Shrieks with Terrorize.

I am not saying Ostagar could or couldn't have been won with better plans, just that saying 'they could have won with a phalanx!' is, IMO, unlikely in a world where Virulent Walking Bomb exists.

Magic IS artillery. People have used tight formations against canister shots and won and those were much more deadly then anything a mage could conjure.

Modifié par Costin_Razvan, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:08 .

[Addai]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

I guess that is meant to show Cailan's overconfidence.

Stupidity more like it.

Well, sometimes putting men's backs up against a natural barrier did work to motivate them.  I think Alexander used that trick a time or two, with rivers.  But, he had cavalry at the flanks so there was still some mobility.  I would like to say that Cailan would think of such things, but... *sigh*

[Costin_Razvan]

Alexander fought major battles near rivers, 'tis true but in those he was the one attacking while his opponents where on the other bank thinking that a river between them and the macedonian army would somehow give them an advantage.

They were so very very wrong.

[Bleachrude]

 The whole battle plan was Loghain.

The only thing Cailan did was actually follow it...

[Costin_Razvan]

Yeah I bet a stupid heroically charge was Loghain's plan.

[Bleachrude]

That I check up to artistic license.

Don't have a problem with the Mabari charge though and even the human charge I don't see as that "stupud"

That charge was less than half the length of a football field...Again, I blame it on the writers not really knowing how to write battles...Why place the army in a position where it the worst happens, you don't have an escape route or at least a method to provide an orderly retreat...

Really makes Loghain look bad and one of the reasons why I always do the spockbrow when everyone says "you got to spare loghain because he's a great general". I mean, Ostagar was used as a fortress that the Tervinters used against the wildmen...

I'm quite willing to bet though said use involved placing their forces BEHIND ostagar's walls and not in front of it...

Eh...really bad writing there on the part of the DA:O team but then like I mentioned, few videogame writers actually construct good battles especially medieval type ones..

(You should see some of the large scale battles in the Elder scrolls series...Ouch)

Modifié par Bleachrude, 09 novembre 2011 - 09:13 .

[Callidus Thorn]

I'm pretty sure the heroic charge was Cailan's idea, the man was an idiot obsessed with the legends of the grey wardens, sending the Mabari in first was more likely Loghains idea. Although Cailans charge would've attracted a lot of attention, making it easier for Loghain to flank the darkspawn, so he could've manipulated Cailan into it.

[Shadow of Light Dragon]

Costin_Razvan wrote...

Magic IS artillery. People have used tight formations against canister shots and won and those were much more deadly then anything a mage could conjure.

No.

Magic is not artillery. By definition, artillery comes down to solid war machines that require crews to operate, engineering and physics to construct properly. Catapults, for instance.

Storm of the Century is not artillery. And I don't care how tight a formation is, it won't do squat against Crushing Prison, Earthquake. or Blood Control. A canister shot that bounces off your shields is not comparable to a spell that bypasses defenses, explodes you from the inside as though you'd swallowed a live grenade, then infects your companions.

Thedas isn't the real world, nor Ostagar fully comparable to Earth warfare.