25 réponses à ce sujet

[theskymoves]

I've asked this question elsewhere on the board/internets, and with some trepidition am now going to ask it of the larger community.

My query is for the DA:O plot experts and lore folks… When the Warden recruits Loghain and places Alistair and Anora on the throne together, Anora accompanies the armies to Redcliffe. Alistair, it can safely be assumed, remains in Denerim… but when the Darkspawn descend on the city, Alistair is no-where to be seen. So, where does Alistair go? Is he hiding in a closet at the palace? Was he shuttled somewhere outside the city, for his safety? Is he fighting amongst the rank and file? Or is this just one of the great mysteries, leaving me as free to speculate as the next person? 

Please note, this is not a gameplay question! Whether the scenario I've laid out can be accomplished or not is not in question. It's also not a headcanon question. I'm not interested in whether doing these things is right, wrong, or the bestest thing For Ferelden! Nor am I seeking advice on how to keep Alistair from abandoning the Wardens if Loghain is recruited. Again, Alistair is married engaged to Anora, so it’s not a “places Alistair or Anora on the throne” question. He’s King (or will be soon), and almost certainly in Ferelden -somewhere - for the entire time frame in question (which is the Battle of Denerim, and perhaps the times just before and after). My interest is narrow and specific: is there any lore or evidence that tells us definitively where Alistair is during the battle, if the following conditions exist: he is to be King, he is betrothed to Anora, and Loghain has been recruited. (And please don't say, "He went to Kirkwall." )

Due diligence disclaimer: I do not currently have access to the toolset, but I have been told there is no dialogue or plot/direction notes which address this. I have already checked the DAWiki, and employed a site-specific Google search to search these boards. And having failed in my efforts, I now turn to my betters. 

pax~
tsm

edited, in a minor way, for clarity

Modifié par theskymoves, 08 novembre 2011 - 02:39 .

[KnightofPhoenix]

I'd say he's most probably fighting, just far away from the Warden and Loghain. And not in the critical spots (like defending the gates).

I'd venture a guess and say he is helping evacuate civilians and protecting the docks.

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 08 novembre 2011 - 02:46 .

[theskymoves]

KnightofPhoenix wrote...

I'd say he's most probably fighting, just far away from the Warden and Loghain. And not in the critical spots (like defending the gates).

I'd venture a guess and say he is helping evacuate civilians and protecting the docks.

Thank you for you response. That is certainly a possibility.

I think I should withdraw my question, since I clearly am unable to phrase it in such a way that conveys my need for either  a definitive, cite-supported answer or a clear "No-one really knows. End of story."

Mea culpa~
tsm

[KnightofPhoenix]

Actually, I didn't read all of it, so the blame goes to me.

I don't think anyone knows.

[Bleachrude]

I'm pretty sure there's a dialogue with Eamon mentioning where Alistair is...

[theskymoves]

Bleachrude wrote...

I'm pretty sure there's a dialogue with Eamon mentioning where Alistair is...

(I'm probably going to regret this, but...) When does the Warden have an opportunity to converse with Eamon between arriving at the City Gates and confronting the Archdemon?

~confused tsm

Modifié par theskymoves, 08 novembre 2011 - 03:44 .

[Corker]

It would have to be in Redcliffe, after news of the horde marching to Denerim has arrived and after Riordan tells you to meet him in his room. You're out of the cutscene and can click on Eamon at that point.

I don't have toolset access at the moment, so I can't look for a quote for you. But if it's there, that's where I'd expect it to be.

[theskymoves]

Corker wrote...

It would have to be in Redcliffe, after news of the horde marching to Denerim has arrived and after Riordan tells you to meet him in his room. You're out of the cutscene and can click on Eamon at that point.

I don't have toolset access at the moment, so I can't look for a quote for you. But if it's there, that's where I'd expect it to be.

Thanks for your input. I just loaded up an old save, played through the Landsmeet and established the scenario I laid out in my original post. When speaking with Arl Eamon at Redcliffe, his only dialogue that references Alistair is "Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. Still, it does keep the Theirin bloodline alive, and Anora is a fine ruler."

Again, my sincere thanks to eveyone who has responded. 

pax~
tsm

[Corker]

Oh wait... after the Landsmeet, after the cutscene where Alistair/Anora comes into the room where the companions and Warden are sitting... what happens after that? Does the game go straight to the loading screen and then Redcliffe, or can you go to Eamon's estate then, too?

[theskymoves]

Corker wrote...

Oh wait... after the Landsmeet, after the cutscene where Alistair/Anora comes into the room where the companions and Warden are sitting... what happens after that? Does the game go straight to the loading screen and then Redcliffe, or can you go to Eamon's estate then, too?

After the cutscene and the exchange that follows, you are in the dining room of Eamon's estate. Anora vanishes off to Redcliffe with Eamon (so neither of them can be spoken to again). Alistair is in Eamon's rooms, and huffs off to parts unknown after spewing hate all over the Warden (should the Warden be masochistic enough to engage him in conversation).

~tsm

Modifié par theskymoves, 08 novembre 2011 - 08:20 .

[gandanlin]

My inclination is to think Alistair leaves Denerim immediately after the Landsmeet. He makes a quick stop at the Circle Tower to discuss his previous involvement with the Templars, and the possibility of re-enlisting. But the response there does not really appeal to him, so he heads off to attempt to find the camp of the Orlesian Wardens.

But this is purely the product of my (arguably overwrought) imagination. Hope it is not totally off-topic.

[theskymoves]

gandanlin wrote...

My inclination is to think Alistair leaves Denerim immediately after the Landsmeet. He makes a quick stop at the Circle Tower to discuss his previous involvement with the Templars, and the possibility of re-enlisting. But the response there does not really appeal to him, so he heads off to attempt to find the camp of the Orlesian Wardens.

But this is purely the product of my (arguably overwrought) imagination. Hope it is not totally off-topic.

Now I'm even more totally confused than I usually am... why would soon-to-be King Alistair attempt to re-join the Templars? And why look for Grey Wardens, Orlesian or otherwise, after completely rejecting the order because Loghain was recruited? 

I'm beginning to feel like I've been playing a completely different game than the rest of the world... 

Modifié par theskymoves, 08 novembre 2011 - 10:50 .

[Ferretinabun]

As fair warning, this is total speculation, but:

I suspect there is no in-game, canon explanation given of Alistair's whereabouts, since this is probably just an oversight of the writers. Much of the script is a little sloppy post-Landsmeet and certain scenarios are conspicuously not catered for, script-wise (such as when no-one at the coronation is in the slightest bit sympathetic to you if you romanced Alistair and saw your One True Love die killing Archie).

[Corker]

OK, got you some toolset script here. I can't see the entire flag, but the part I can see says, "Alistair engaged to Anora"

Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. Still, it does keep the Theirin bloodline alive, and Anora is a fine ruler. So I suppose I owe you thank, Warden. All of Ferelden does.

Warden: Shouldn't Alistair be staying here? (for flag "Landsmeet Alistair on throne")

He insists on going. How can I say no? I am... uneasy with the danger he puts himself in by accompanying you

--- OK, so that's not the right flag; that's Alistair on the throne but with the PC. Next option listed is:

Warden: Have you heard anything of Alistair (Flag "Landsmeet Alistair gone forever")

He is angry, Warden. And rightfully so. He has left, and I know not to where. I will try to contact him again once all of this is done, but... I am not confident that he will change his mind and return.

--- Now that sounds like the "drunk in Kirkwall" ending. But... it's definitely under the "Marrying Alistair to Anora" branch of the tree, so I guess that's got to be it for the "Ali/Anora, spare Loghain" option.

Does this not fire in the game, though? Sounds like you played this scene out and didn't get it.

[theskymoves]

@ Corker - No. The dialogue when speaking to Eamon with the conditions I laid out (Alistair to marry Anora, Loghain recruited) is:

Eamon: Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. etc
Warden (choice A): Something about "Are the any other allies we can call on" (To which Eamon responds with something about Orlais; I'm sorry, but I didn't write it down exactly, which leads to choice
Warden (choice : I should go to my room.

The "Have you heard anything of Alistair?" option correctly appears if Ali's gone for a drunk.
The "Shouldn't Alistair be staying here?"" correctly appears if Loghain has not been recruited.

And in any event I don't see any information in the dialogue that addresses my specific question.

I think it is best if I really do bow out of the discussion at this point, since it has gone far afield from my original query and is causing folks to spend unnecessary time and effort on something that really matters very little. I merely had an itch to write a bit of drabble, and wanted to get this detail right. And it's probably for the better that I don't give in, after realizing how poorly I've expressed myself here! 

Again, I do appreciate your effort to help me resolve this, but it does seem to be a plot hole with nothing to plug it; I apologize for having wasted your time.

pax~
tsm

Modifié par theskymoves, 09 novembre 2011 - 02:02 .

[theskymoves]

 Okay, one more and then I promise I'm gone...
 
I'm in a friend's toolset, and the "Have you heard anything of Alistair?" dialogue, despite appearing under Marrying Alistair to Anora..." tree, also has the following scripting comments: 

IF: Anora is the sole queenand IFNOT: Alistair executed

which would preclude it from being applicable if Alistair and Anora are to be married. (Which is why it correctly did not trigger under the conditions I established.)

Clear as mud, no?  

Modifié par theskymoves, 09 novembre 2011 - 02:37 .

[gandanlin]

theskymoves wrote...

gandanlin wrote...

My inclination is to think Alistair leaves Denerim immediately after the Landsmeet. He makes a quick stop at the Circle Tower to discuss his previous involvement with the Templars, and the possibility of re-enlisting. But the response there does not really appeal to him, so he heads off to attempt to find the camp of the Orlesian Wardens.

But this is purely the product of my (arguably overwrought) imagination. Hope it is not totally off-topic.

Now I'm even more totally confused than I usually am... why would soon-to-be King Alistair attempt to re-join the Templars? And why look for Grey Wardens, Orlesian or otherwise, after completely rejecting the order because Loghain was recruited? 

I'm beginning to feel like I've been playing a completely different game than the rest of the world... 

Well, I'm just making up a fanciful story, so don't be too concerned. 

As I see it, unhardened Alistair never really wanted to be king much anyway, so Loghain provides an opportunity to run away from the dread prospect of having to make decisions that affect other people's lives.

As well, it was a well-kept secret at camp that Leliana and Alistair were flirting with each other.  Would-be templar (with a stain on his escutcheon)  and ex=Chantry girl (with intriguing background) would be bound to feel a little mutual attraction.  So the trip to Orlais may have been motivated in part by a desire to look into the places where Leliana talked about.  A little nostalgia at work, if you will.  And his annoyance with the recruitment of Loghain faded as he put distance between himself and Ferelden....
 
As I said, arguably overwrought.... 

[theskymoves]

gandanlin wrote...

theskymoves wrote...

gandanlin wrote...

My inclination is to think Alistair leaves Denerim immediately after the Landsmeet. He makes a quick stop at the Circle Tower to discuss his previous involvement with the Templars, and the possibility of re-enlisting. But the response there does not really appeal to him, so he heads off to attempt to find the camp of the Orlesian Wardens.

But this is purely the product of my (arguably overwrought) imagination. Hope it is not totally off-topic.

Now I'm even more totally confused than I usually am... why would soon-to-be King Alistair attempt to re-join the Templars? And why look for Grey Wardens, Orlesian or otherwise, after completely rejecting the order because Loghain was recruited? 

I'm beginning to feel like I've been playing a completely different game than the rest of the world... 

Well, I'm just making up a fanciful story, so don't be too concerned. 

As I see it, unhardened Alistair never really wanted to be king much anyway, so Loghain provides an opportunity to run away from the dread prospect of having to make decisions that affect other people's lives.

As well, it was a well-kept secret at camp that Leliana and Alistair were flirting with each other.  Would-be templar (with a stain on his escutcheon)  and ex=Chantry girl (with intriguing background) would be bound to feel a little mutual attraction.  So the trip to Orlais may have been motivated in part by a desire to look into the places where Leliana talked about.  A little nostalgia at work, if you will.  And his annoyance with the recruitment of Loghain faded as he put distance between himself and Ferelden....
 
As I said, arguably overwrought.... 

Well, the Alistair in my scenario was hardened, but I guess I neglected to mention that. ("News of the hour! MORE FAIL by tsm!")  And now my poor Surana who thought Alistair was in love with her is glad to be dead, having just found out that Ali was eyeing that shameless Orlesian hussy in camp THE WHOLE TIME!  /snark

(I really really wish the moderators would delete this whole thread... )

[ejoslin]

theskymoves wrote...

 Okay, one more and then I promise I'm gone...
 
I'm in a friend's toolset, and the "Have you heard anything of Alistair?" dialogue, despite appearing under Marrying Alistair to Anora..." tree, also has the following scripting comments: 

IF: Anora is the sole queenand IFNOT: Alistair executed

which would preclude it from being applicable if Alistair and Anora are to be married. (Which is why it correctly did not trigger under the conditions I established.)

Clear as mud, no?  

In ZDF, I actually worked a little on that dialog as it sounded strange asking him if Alistair should be staying in Denerim if he's marrying Anora but Loghain is still alive and Alistair is clearly NOT joining the warden.  So I changed it so that option only appears if Alistair is still recruited and king.

FWIW.  My guess is Alistair is fighting in Denerim.  FAR away from the warden.

[maxernst]

ejoslin wrote...

theskymoves wrote...

 Okay, one more and then I promise I'm gone...
 
I'm in a friend's toolset, and the "Have you heard anything of Alistair?" dialogue, despite appearing under Marrying Alistair to Anora..." tree, also has the following scripting comments: 

IF: Anora is the sole queenand IFNOT: Alistair executed

which would preclude it from being applicable if Alistair and Anora are to be married. (Which is why it correctly did not trigger under the conditions I established.)

Clear as mud, no?  

In ZDF, I actually worked a little on that dialog as it sounded strange asking him if Alistair should be staying in Denerim if he's marrying Anora but Loghain is still alive and Alistair is clearly NOT joining the warden.  So I changed it so that option only appears if Alistair is still recruited and king.

FWIW.  My guess is Alistair is fighting in Denerim.  FAR away from the warden.

Yeah, I think he must be fighting the Darkspawn somewhere, just keeping away from the Warden and Loghain.  It would hardly be acceptable for the King-to-be not to be defending his capital city, particularly one as skilled in combat as Alistair.

[theskymoves]

ejoslin wrote...

theskymoves wrote...

 Okay, one more and then I promise I'm gone...
 
I'm in a friend's toolset, and the "Have you heard anything of Alistair?" dialogue, despite appearing under Marrying Alistair to Anora..." tree, also has the following scripting comments: 

IF: Anora is the sole queenand IFNOT: Alistair executed

which would preclude it from being applicable if Alistair and Anora are to be married. (Which is why it correctly did not trigger under the conditions I established.)

Clear as mud, no?  

In ZDF, I actually worked a little on that dialog as it sounded strange asking him if Alistair should be staying in Denerim if he's marrying Anora but Loghain is still alive and Alistair is clearly NOT joining the warden.  So I changed it so that option only appears if Alistair is still recruited and king.

FWIW.  My guess is Alistair is fighting in Denerim.  FAR away from the warden.

Ah. I am using ZDF, which is probably why dialogue options are not syncing up with Corker's. Thank you for clearing that up. (Although, are we talking about the same dialogue? I thought we were looking at the exchange between the Warden and Eamon in Redcliffe, with the line "Shouldn't Alistair be staying here?")

confused and more confused~
tsm

[ejoslin]

theskymoves wrote...

ejoslin wrote...

theskymoves wrote...

 Okay, one more and then I promise I'm gone...
 
I'm in a friend's toolset, and the "Have you heard anything of Alistair?" dialogue, despite appearing under Marrying Alistair to Anora..." tree, also has the following scripting comments: 

IF: Anora is the sole queenand IFNOT: Alistair executed

which would preclude it from being applicable if Alistair and Anora are to be married. (Which is why it correctly did not trigger under the conditions I established.)

Clear as mud, no?  

In ZDF, I actually worked a little on that dialog as it sounded strange asking him if Alistair should be staying in Denerim if he's marrying Anora but Loghain is still alive and Alistair is clearly NOT joining the warden.  So I changed it so that option only appears if Alistair is still recruited and king.

FWIW.  My guess is Alistair is fighting in Denerim.  FAR away from the warden.

Ah. I am using ZDF, which is probably why dialogue options are not syncing up with Corker's. Thank you for clearing that up. (Although, are we talking about the same dialogue? I thought we were looking at the exchange between the Warden and Eamon in Redcliffe, with the line "Shouldn't Alistair be staying here?")

confused and more confused~
tsm

I am as well.  I deviated from the scripting comment because Alistair makes it clear he's staying in Denerim if you recruit Loghain.  In particular I'm talking about this:

Eamon: Marrying Alistair to Anora... would not have been my first choice. Still, it does keep the Theirin bloodline alive, and Anora is a fine ruler. (dubious about the whole matter) IF: ALISTAIR_ANORA_MARRY [DEN_LANDSMEET]*ONCE

Eamon: So I suppose I owe you thanks, Warden. All of Ferelden does. (sincere)

Warden's first choice is this:  Shouldn't Alistair be staying here? 

This is the response to which I changed the flag to triggering only if he's still recruited and king. The others will trigger appropriately, even going down the dialog tree.  

Modifié par ejoslin, 09 novembre 2011 - 11:32 .

[theskymoves]

Does that dialogue actually appear in an un-modded game (with Eamon's reference to - I'm paraphrasing here - "the danger (Alistair) is putting himself in (by accompanying the Warden)" even if Alistair has LEFT the Wardens and has a huge hate going for The Warden? That's... astonishingly sloppy work. (Says the woman who has confused everyone with her original post.)

Maker's blessings on you and everyone else who fixes things like that...

Edited to add that the above is Opinion! 

Modifié par theskymoves, 10 novembre 2011 - 12:13 .

[ejoslin]

It does actually appear -- the flag used in the vanilla game just checks to see if Alistair is king, not if he's still with in the party. You would not believe how many little mistakes like that are there. They did run out of resources, and that is probably why there are so many of them.

Edit: And thank you so much

Modifié par ejoslin, 10 novembre 2011 - 01:22 .