999 réponses à ce sujet

[Balek-Vriege]

Part of my post explaining Deus Ex Machina and MacGuffin differences in previous thread:

The Deus Ex Machina thing is getting silly. It's a "bad word" so everyone who doesn't like something inserts it into anything epic in a plot. The right zinger word is a good or a bad "MacGuffin." Deus Ex Machina was a term coined to be critical of some ancient greek playrights/writers always bringing Gods/Goddesses to save the tragic hero from dieing, ressurecting him or saving the day.

"Although our tragic hero died, Zeus came down and gave him life once more for his heroics and everyone lived happily ever after. Even though there was no mention, foreshadowing or involvement of the Gods/Zeus in the story."

"The races of the Galaxy have been defeated and only a small portion of the Citadel population remains. As the Reapers get ready to shoot their final salvo, mysterious beings of light appear from the Mass Relay destroying the Reaper fleet. Everyone is overjoyed and before they can say thank you, the mysterious Guardians vanish back into the void."

That is true Deus Ex Machina. A MacGuffin is:

"With the Cipher Shepard races Saren to stop him from using the Conduit and thus infiltrating the Citadel. If Saren activates the Citadel manually, the Reapers will destroy us all."

The Conduit, Cipher and the Citadel are all MacGuffins. They're the unique special things in which all the interesting/key plot developments revolve around and possession of one or more of them will make or break the hero or the villain. ME2 didn't really have a MacGuffin save for the Reaper IFF and the story didn't revolve around it save for the end.

So if Shepard starts going around the Galaxy searching for a wildcard to stop the Reapers in between buying time and making alliances, that's not a Deus Ex Machina. That's a search for the ultimate MacGuffin.

/snip

[Chris Priestly]

Dasher1010 wrote...]
If it's not the final version does that mean that we might ahve even MORE weapons?

Or fewer.

[AVPen]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Hi everyone

After some investigation, we are able to provide further information regarding the Mass Effect 3 leaks this weekend:

Following the accidental public release of the internal beta, some information was extracted from game files that was then released on the internet.  That information was found in test entries in our database which represent rough notes on mission summaries from early story drafts.  These story outlines do not form the actual game script, and since most of these entries are from first-draft story documents, many of the elements will be different in the final game.  These simplified entries also do not represent the actual dialog, non-linearity, or interactive choices in the actual game.  In fact, the team is still hard at work writing and implementing final versions of storylines and dialog.

It should go without saying however that reading leaked Mass Effect 3 files - however out of date they may be - will likely spoil your experience in the game.  We ask that you join with us in keeping the BioWare Social Network spoiler-free, so that as many players as possible can discover the surprises and revelations of Mass Effect 3 in the game itself.

Glad to see you release an updated response to this leak mess, Chris, and I must say, I am personally very
glad to hear that the majority of the leaked info was based on outdated plot/story/character information that has since been changed and altered in the final game (like many other loyal fans, I did not read the website with the leaked info, but a few un-named a**holes dropped a few of the "spoilers" in several forum threads without warning, which had me quite worried and concern for the final game till now).

Keep up the good work. 

[Dasher1010]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...]
If it's not the final version does that mean that we might ahve even MORE weapons?

Or fewer.

You're an evil soul crusing monstrosity. (cries)  :crying::crying:

[JeffZero]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Dasher1010 wrote...]
If it's not the final version does that mean that we might ahve even MORE weapons?

Or fewer.

Evil, Chris!

[kiti.the.great]

this makes more sense than 3/4 of that draft. i'm serious.

Modifié par kiti.the.great, 08 novembre 2011 - 11:08 .

[Dasher1010]

Anyway, I'm hoping that a certain character's role was changed since it didn't fit him/her at all. Not only in terms of personality but int terms of how he/she could ever possibly get there or be allowed to do that. Garrus becoming Archangel is one thing. This one character doing that was so incredibly out of character that it ruined the rest of the otherwise excellent plot I was reading. People who've read it know who this is already and those who havne't don't need to know but it felt like a punch to the gut.

EDIT: Removed spoilers

Modifié par Jessica Merizan, 12 novembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[mineralica]

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see why people are so upset about the DEM/MacGuffin. That's all it was ever meant to be.

The Reapers cannot be stopped with the known means the Galaxy has available. They're far too powerful and they've already taken so much of the Galaxy in so little time.

Really, defeating the Reapers with nothing more than brute firepower would feel even more forced than a DEM/MacGuffin, given how hopeless the situation is made out to be.

'Popping up randomly'

If the situation can't be solved without introduction of DEM, then it shouldn't be solved at all.

'delurk'

[Blacklash93]

mineralica wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see why people are so upset about the DEM/MacGuffin. That's all it was ever meant to be.

The Reapers cannot be stopped with the known means the Galaxy has available. They're far too powerful and they've already taken so much of the Galaxy in so little time.

Really, defeating the Reapers with nothing more than brute firepower would feel even more forced than a DEM/MacGuffin, given how hopeless the situation is made out to be.

'Popping up randomly'

If the situation can't be solved without introduction of DEM, then it shouldn't be solved at all.

'delurk'

Any story can pull itself off without DEM or MacGuffin, but some stories just make more sense with it. I prefer MacGuffin, though in this case.

Really, if all ME3 boils down to is a typical war story with one side simply overpowering the other in the end, I'd be disappointed. The Reaper conflict is interesting enough to warrant some twists and turns.

Modifié par Blacklash93, 08 novembre 2011 - 11:21 .

[KingDan97]

mineralica wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see why people are so upset about the DEM/MacGuffin. That's all it was ever meant to be.

The Reapers cannot be stopped with the known means the Galaxy has available. They're far too powerful and they've already taken so much of the Galaxy in so little time.

Really, defeating the Reapers with nothing more than brute firepower would feel even more forced than a DEM/MacGuffin, given how hopeless the situation is made out to be.

'Popping up randomly'

If the situation can't be solved without introduction of DEM, then it shouldn't be solved at all.

'delurk'

It's by definition not a DEM because you the player have to work to get it, and it fits within the confines of the universe so it's not a DEM. It's not a "being of light" okay, it's something you do, it's not a win button it's a MacGuffin.

[C9316]

I'm all for a MacGuffin that gives the galaxy an edge against the reapers, but doesn't guarantee victory. I'll be pissed if we get what Gears of War 3 got.

[AdmiralCheez]

KingDan97 wrote...

It's by definition not a DEM because you the player have to work to get it, and it fits within the confines of the universe so it's not a DEM. It's not a "being of light" okay, it's something you do, it's not a win button it's a MacGuffin.

Have to agree here.

[C9316]

kiti.the.great wrote...



this makes more sense than 3/4 of that draft. i'm serious.

How the hell did official demo gameplay get leaked!?

[kiti.the.great]

C9316 wrote...

kiti.the.great wrote...



this makes more sense than 3/4 of that draft. i'm serious.

How the hell did official demo gameplay get leaked!?

russian hackers! russian hackers everywhere...

[DiebytheSword]

KingDan97 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see why people are so upset about the DEM/MacGuffin. That's all it was ever meant to be.

The Reapers cannot be stopped with the known means the Galaxy has available. They're far too powerful and they've already taken so much of the Galaxy in so little time.

Really, defeating the Reapers with nothing more than brute firepower would feel even more forced than a DEM/MacGuffin, given how hopeless the situation is made out to be.

If the MacGuffin did the heavy lifting it would be a DEM, but it doesn't so DEM doesn't qualify.  The MacGuffin obeys the internal logic of the story.  DEM does not.

And let's be honest, robo-Saren's destruction causing Sovvie to lose focus instead of gaining renewed focus was pretty DEM to begin with.

Sovereign's overconfidence does not a DEM make.  Had a magical prothean ninja jumped out of the ducts and short cirtcuited Soveriegns shields, that would be a DEM.  Instead, you killed the being that Sovereign unwisely thought would be able to kill you and your team.  The Reapers were only ever meant to be a threat, not unstoppable.  This is why they rely on surprise to win.  This is why the leak's MacGuffin is not a Deus Ex Machina.

Modifié par DiebytheSword, 08 novembre 2011 - 11:28 .

[shepskisaac]

Chris when will you stream how you torture Microsoft live on Bioware TV?

[KingDan97]

DiebytheSword wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see why people are so upset about the DEM/MacGuffin. That's all it was ever meant to be.

The Reapers cannot be stopped with the known means the Galaxy has available. They're far too powerful and they've already taken so much of the Galaxy in so little time.

Really, defeating the Reapers with nothing more than brute firepower would feel even more forced than a DEM/MacGuffin, given how hopeless the situation is made out to be.

If the MacGuffin did the heavy lifting it would be a DEM, but it doesn't so DEM doesn't qualify.  The MacGuffin obeys the internal logic of the story.  DEM does not.

And let's be honest, robo-Saren's destruction causing Sovvie to lose focus instead of gaining renewed focus was pretty DEM to begin with.

Sovereign's overconfidence does not a DEM make.  Had a magical prothean ninja jumped out of the ducts and short cirtcuited Soveriegns shields, that would be a DEM.  Instead, you killed the being that Sovereign unwisely thought would be able to kill you and your team.  The Reapers were only ever meant to be a threat, not unstoppable.  This is why they rely on surprise to win.  This is why the leak's MacGuffin is not a Deus Ex Machina.

I agree that the leak's McGuffin wasn't a DEM, I'm just saying that if you're multitasking, and then you don't have to do one of those things anymore, youre productivity in all others would go up, yet somehow not needing to fight Shepard led to Sovvie losing his concentration and lowering his shields, which makes no sense and is a logical DEM not a universal one.

[DiebytheSword]

KingDan97 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see why people are so upset about the DEM/MacGuffin. That's all it was ever meant to be.

The Reapers cannot be stopped with the known means the Galaxy has available. They're far too powerful and they've already taken so much of the Galaxy in so little time.

Really, defeating the Reapers with nothing more than brute firepower would feel even more forced than a DEM/MacGuffin, given how hopeless the situation is made out to be.

If the MacGuffin did the heavy lifting it would be a DEM, but it doesn't so DEM doesn't qualify.  The MacGuffin obeys the internal logic of the story.  DEM does not.

And let's be honest, robo-Saren's destruction causing Sovvie to lose focus instead of gaining renewed focus was pretty DEM to begin with.

Sovereign's overconfidence does not a DEM make.  Had a magical prothean ninja jumped out of the ducts and short cirtcuited Soveriegns shields, that would be a DEM.  Instead, you killed the being that Sovereign unwisely thought would be able to kill you and your team.  The Reapers were only ever meant to be a threat, not unstoppable.  This is why they rely on surprise to win.  This is why the leak's MacGuffin is not a Deus Ex Machina.

I agree that the leak's McGuffin wasn't a DEM, I'm just saying that if you're multitasking, and then you don't have to do one of those things anymore, youre productivity in all others would go up, yet somehow not needing to fight Shepard led to Sovvie losing his concentration and lowering his shields, which makes no sense and is a logical DEM not a universal one.

It makes no sense to us because we lack the critical information to understand just how a Reaper assumes direct control.  Saren was obviously a very strongly willed individual to survive with his mind exposed to close range assault from Sovereign at all times.  He makes mention that he was implanted for improvement, which is a somewhat different case from Harbinger's slave race of collectors who have very little individual will to start with.  As Mordin puts it, they are little more than clones and machines.  Saren was obviously not that.  What's to say that Sovereign didn't need to put excessive resources into dominating Saren's form?  We don't know how much any of these activities affect the hive mind of a Reaper, we don't know if the Reapers work on programming imposing will on their collective minds.

When there is too little information, you cannot make assumptions like your multi-tasking argument makes.  We don't know that the death of a directly controlled strong willed individual, implanted with reaper tech, has any positive or negative effects other than the writers say that this even did indeed weaken Sovereign.

For all we know, Harbinger could have been icing his jaw after every time I meleed his direct control into direct ashes.

[DiebytheSword]

kiti.the.great wrote...

C9316 wrote...

kiti.the.great wrote...



this makes more sense than 3/4 of that draft. i'm serious.

How the hell did official demo gameplay get leaked!?

russian hackers! russian hackers everywhere...

I will hack you!

[kiti.the.great]

leaked Tali romance scene. those russian hackers...

:***

Modifié par kiti.the.great, 08 novembre 2011 - 11:42 .

[DTKT]

Heh.

I guess we'll see on launch day how much got spoiled. I'm sure someone will go through the leaked script and check for what actually changed.

[jeweledleah]

kiti.the.great wrote...

C9316 wrote...

kiti.the.great wrote...



this makes more sense than 3/4 of that draft. i'm serious.

How the hell did official demo gameplay get leaked!?

russian hackers! russian hackers everywhere...

oh god.  now I have a vision of evil Chris, hugging wide eyed Casey, saying that. 

[C9316]

kiti.the.great wrote...

leaked Tali romance scene. those russian hackers...

:***

Well I'm glad it wasn't the liara or VS romance. I'm kinda scared of what Vega's romance will be like...

[C9316]

Hey guys! I got some leaked bioware stuff!!!! Apparently bioware is making a First Contact War prequel game!

You saw it here first folks!

[billy the squid]

DiebytheSword wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Blacklash93 wrote...

I don't see why people are so upset about the DEM/MacGuffin. That's all it was ever meant to be.

The Reapers cannot be stopped with the known means the Galaxy has available. They're far too powerful and they've already taken so much of the Galaxy in so little time.

Really, defeating the Reapers with nothing more than brute firepower would feel even more forced than a DEM/MacGuffin, given how hopeless the situation is made out to be.

If the MacGuffin did the heavy lifting it would be a DEM, but it doesn't so DEM doesn't qualify.  The MacGuffin obeys the internal logic of the story.  DEM does not.

And let's be honest, robo-Saren's destruction causing Sovvie to lose focus instead of gaining renewed focus was pretty DEM to begin with.

Sovereign's overconfidence does not a DEM make.  Had a magical prothean ninja jumped out of the ducts and short cirtcuited Soveriegns shields, that would be a DEM.  Instead, you killed the being that Sovereign unwisely thought would be able to kill you and your team.  The Reapers were only ever meant to be a threat, not unstoppable.  This is why they rely on surprise to win.  This is why the leak's MacGuffin is not a Deus Ex Machina.

I agree that the leak's McGuffin wasn't a DEM, I'm just saying that if you're multitasking, and then you don't have to do one of those things anymore, youre productivity in all others would go up, yet somehow not needing to fight Shepard led to Sovvie losing his concentration and lowering his shields, which makes no sense and is a logical DEM not a universal one.

It makes no sense to us because we lack the critical information to understand just how a Reaper assumes direct control.  Saren was obviously a very strongly willed individual to survive with his mind exposed to close range assault from Sovereign at all times.  He makes mention that he was implanted for improvement, which is a somewhat different case from Harbinger's slave race of collectors who have very little individual will to start with.  As Mordin puts it, they are little more than clones and machines.  Saren was obviously not that.  What's to say that Sovereign didn't need to put excessive resources into dominating Saren's form?  We don't know how much any of these activities affect the hive mind of a Reaper, we don't know if the Reapers work on programming imposing will on their collective minds.

When there is too little information, you cannot make assumptions like your multi-tasking argument makes.  We don't know that the death of a directly controlled strong willed individual, implanted with reaper tech, has any positive or negative effects other than the writers say that this even did indeed weaken Sovereign.

For all we know, Harbinger could have been icing his jaw after every time I meleed his direct control into direct ashes.

I always imagined that when you were fighting Saren's corpse, Soveriegn was seeing you through its eyes. In essence you were fighting a portion of Sovreign's "mind" when you destroyed Saren you disrupted the Reaper's control or shields allowing it to be destroyed. I think the difference with Harbinger is that "Assuming Direct Control" was done via the Collector General, more akin to a proxy. Hence Harbinger detatching before the Collector base was destroyed, possibly to prevent being directly affected.

As to the McGuffin, so long as it isn't ham handed or an instant I win button, I'll have to look at the details again as I skimmed over the plot points only, then it should be okay, but I' unsure at the moment.