999 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

[dp]

[aries1001]

I once read in a book to aspring authors that if you don't how it is going to end, don't bother writing at all.
The author og this guide book to writing compared writing to flying an airplane, if you do not know how to land the airplane don't even bother learning how to fly, meaing, of course, if you don't know to end your story, please don't bother writing.

So, like a journey you need to know your goal e.g. where you going i.e. where you're ending up if you start to write a story, or are writing for a game, like ME3.

[PnXMarcin1PL]

Let's wait and see when the final game is out guys. Seriously, basing unfull scripts as final ones is just STUPID. Yes ive ruined my me3 experience to read them. My opinio is that BSN is full of trolling haters that think they are the most important here.

[IanPolaris]

RiouHotaru wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

That's all well and good (and even correct) when discussing logical constructs in philosophy or rhetoric.  That's not how people think, however, and if you want to do damage control, you have to address how people think.  I am sure there probably is company policy, but companies can (and do) change policies or even make exceptions under certain emergency conditions and IMHO this qualifies as a PR emergency.

-Polaris

So you're saying it's okay for folks in this situation to stop trying to think logically and rationally about something.  Also, PR nightmare?  What nightmare?  Bioware's response to this was been surprisingly lax, all things considered.  Two public statements regarding the leak and that's it.  I'd say their response is more telling of their reaction.  They obviously aren't that worried.

So why are we?

They aren't that worried?  I guess you've been seeing different tweets and actions (culimating in a Microsoft C&D letterto NeoGaf) than I have.  I'd say from the reactions that Bioware is plenty worried.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for the rest, what I am saying is if you are dealing with people, especially dissapointed/angry people, then classic Rhetoric isn't going to work.  You have to understand and aknowledge how your customers think even if it's illogical.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 08 novembre 2011 - 07:24 .

[KingDan97]

IanPolaris wrote...

King Dan,

The story would be written out with a lot more detail than that LONG before now for ME3 (probably finalized around the time ME2 was released) simply to give enough TIME for the rest of the game to be developed correctly.

-Polaris

So then following that logic, all concept art, all levels were created before ME2 launched because herp derp, they needed time to bug test. NO. That is not how game development works, 24000 lines of plot could not be made within the mere month after ME2 went gold. Especially not by a preproduction team, which on average consists of just the leads.

You clearly assume too much of game development cycles, they are not the kind of crunch fests you assume especially when level designers can make assets based off concept art that can later be easily inserted into finished levels once the plot has been nailed down. In fact, they can make the entire levels before they even know what the game is about so long as locations are nailed down. But you're right, obviously the one lead who was in the preproduction team for ME3, that wouldn't have been formed until after ME2 was finsihed and proven to be still viable as a franchise was expected to write up basically an entire novel all by himself. Sure, just tell yourself that.

[RiouHotaru]

The Entire Armed Forces of Canada wrote...

As Awesome as the whole it's old and outdated and won't be in the final game talk sounds

"It
should go without saying however that reading leaked Mass Effect 3
files - however out of date they may be - will likely spoil your
experience in the game. We ask that you join with us in keeping the
BioWare Social Network spoiler-free, so that as many players as possible
can discover the surprises and revelations of Mass Effect 3 in the game
itself.

-Chris Priestly ,"

basically
tells me that there is a lot of this that isn't "first draft". Had it
been truly early early early work, then Chris would not be rushing to
warn players from viewing it. If reading this leaked plot ruins your
game experience, yet isn't supposed to be true, then something does not
add up here. You cannot receive a ruined game information from outdated
plot files unless the plot files aren't as outdated as they are being
claimed to be.

Face facts, BioWare is running around trying to
put the fires out because this isn't as outdated as they're claiming. We
know in the summer months there was talk about a Prothean being in the
game. Someone said that every war has traitors.We know Mordin is working
on the genophage and that the Krogan participation in the war relies on
this. The scene where the Reaper gets taken down by a Thresher Maw was
told to us. These things were all in this "outdated" plot. The major
quests, the major occurrences involving character deaths and moving the
central story (i.e. gaining species loyalty) are most likely as they
were described in the leaked plot.

Do you know why they say not to read the spoilers?  Because, even outdated, they cause you to develop a preconception for what you think will happen and poison your experience.  It's like having the series finale of a TV show "spoiled" for you before you go to see it.  Even though the spoilers are not true, you've already made some assumptions about how it will end before you actually see it, which taints your ability to enjoy it.

Bioware wants you to avoid that feeling.  I hardly see how this is "telling" of anything.

[CannotCompute]

Appreciate the update, Chris.

[onelifecrisis]

aries1001 wrote...

I once read in a book to aspring authors that if you don't how it is going to end, don't bother writing at all.

Somewhat off-topic: if Stephen King had listened to that, he'd never have written a thing.

[IanPolaris]

KingDan97 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

King Dan,

The story would be written out with a lot more detail than that LONG before now for ME3 (probably finalized around the time ME2 was released) simply to give enough TIME for the rest of the game to be developed correctly.

-Polaris

So then following that logic, all concept art, all levels were created before ME2 launched because herp derp, they needed time to bug test. NO. That is not how game development works, 24000 lines of plot could not be made within the mere month after ME2 went gold. Especially not by a preproduction team, which on average consists of just the leads.

You clearly assume too much of game development cycles, they are not the kind of crunch fests you assume especially when level designers can make assets based off concept art that can later be easily inserted into finished levels once the plot has been nailed down. In fact, they can make the entire levels before they even know what the game is about so long as locations are nailed down. But you're right, obviously the one lead who was in the preproduction team for ME3, that wouldn't have been formed until after ME2 was finsihed and proven to be still viable as a franchise was expected to write up basically an entire novel all by himself. Sure, just tell yourself that.

Really?  That explains why DA2 is game of the year.  Thank you for your insight.

-Polaris

[Noni6466]

I really don't understand all the negative feedback about the story. Why is everyone so dissapointed? What did you expect in the first place? Bioware promised us a bloody war story. Has anyone ever read a war story? In Quiet flows the Don almost all the main (and minor) characters die. If anything I think that Bioware captured all the hopelesness and chaos perfectly, and I'm glad it's not all sunshine and bunnies.

[IanPolaris]

onelifecrisis wrote...

aries1001 wrote...

I once read in a book to aspring authors that if you don't how it is going to end, don't bother writing at all.

Somewhat off-topic: if Stephen King had listened to that, he'd never have written a thing.

On the other hand if Robert Jordan had listened to that advice, he might have actually finished is masterpiece before he died (also slightly off topic).

-Polaris

[RiouHotaru]

IanPolaris wrote...

They aren't that worried?  I guess you've been seeing different tweets and actions (culimating in a Microsoft C&D letterto NeoGaf) than I have.  I'd say from the reactions that Bioware is plenty worried.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for the rest, what I am saying is if you are dealing with people, especially dissapointed/angry people, then classic Rhetoric isn't going to work.  You have to understand and aknowledge how your customers think even if it's illogical.

I don't consider Microsoft's actions the same as Bioware's actions.  Bioware investigated the leak, found it came from Microsoft.  Microsoft scrambles to cover their collective behinds by trying to quash the leak, all videos of it, and the spoilers.

Meanwhile, Bioware releases (so far) two public statements and even allows a thread and group to discuss these "spoilers".  I don't consider Microsoft's actions to reflect on Bioware.  It's obvious Microsoft is saving face.

[KingDan97]

IanPolaris wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

King Dan,

The story would be written out with a lot more detail than that LONG before now for ME3 (probably finalized around the time ME2 was released) simply to give enough TIME for the rest of the game to be developed correctly.

-Polaris

So then following that logic, all concept art, all levels were created before ME2 launched because herp derp, they needed time to bug test. NO. That is not how game development works, 24000 lines of plot could not be made within the mere month after ME2 went gold. Especially not by a preproduction team, which on average consists of just the leads.

You clearly assume too much of game development cycles, they are not the kind of crunch fests you assume especially when level designers can make assets based off concept art that can later be easily inserted into finished levels once the plot has been nailed down. In fact, they can make the entire levels before they even know what the game is about so long as locations are nailed down. But you're right, obviously the one lead who was in the preproduction team for ME3, that wouldn't have been formed until after ME2 was finsihed and proven to be still viable as a franchise was expected to write up basically an entire novel all by himself. Sure, just tell yourself that.

Really?  That explains why DA2 is game of the year.  Thank you for your insight.

-Polaris

Blame the son for the sins of the father, good threory, except that father was the black sheep of the family.

[IanPolaris]

Noni6466 wrote...

I really don't understand all the negative feedback about the story. Why is everyone so dissapointed? What did you expect in the first place? Bioware promised us a bloody war story. Has anyone ever read a war story? In Quiet flows the Don almost all the main (and minor) characters die. If anything I think that Bioware captured all the hopelesness and chaos perfectly, and I'm glad it's not all sunshine and bunnies.

What has me the most upset is the apparent lack of respect or even aknowledge of player agency in the prior two games.  There are also some points (VS) where people die (or can die) or betray Shepard because they took stupid pills.

-Polaris

[Stardusk78]

Edit: Spoilers removed.

Modifié par Chris Priestly, 08 novembre 2011 - 07:31 .

[IanPolaris]

KingDan97 wrote...
Blame the son for the sins of the father, good threory, except that father was the black sheep of the family.

I made the comparison because it's apt.  DA2 is what happens (at least to a large degree) when you DON'T take the time needed to produce a game correctly.  Consider that even with the extended date, ME3 is only getting about 4-6 more months of Dev time than DA2 did.....that along with the leaked info does not bode well.  It does show that the story has to be (at least nearly) written long before production really kicks into high gear...or the results can be....unfortunate.

-Polaris

[onelifecrisis]

RiouHotaru wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

They aren't that worried?  I guess you've been seeing different tweets and actions (culimating in a Microsoft C&D letterto NeoGaf) than I have.  I'd say from the reactions that Bioware is plenty worried.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for the rest, what I am saying is if you are dealing with people, especially dissapointed/angry people, then classic Rhetoric isn't going to work.  You have to understand and aknowledge how your customers think even if it's illogical.

I don't consider Microsoft's actions the same as Bioware's actions.  Bioware investigated the leak, found it came from Microsoft.  Microsoft scrambles to cover their collective behinds by trying to quash the leak, all videos of it, and the spoilers.

<snip>

It's obvious Microsoft is saving face.

I saw an article saying that the C&D came from EA. You're saying it came from MS?

[Chris Priestly]

Ok, last warning. Stop the arguing and fighting or people will lose their posting ability here.

[IanPolaris]

onelifecrisis wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

They aren't that worried?  I guess you've been seeing different tweets and actions (culimating in a Microsoft C&D letterto NeoGaf) than I have.  I'd say from the reactions that Bioware is plenty worried.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for the rest, what I am saying is if you are dealing with people, especially dissapointed/angry people, then classic Rhetoric isn't going to work.  You have to understand and aknowledge how your customers think even if it's illogical.

I don't consider Microsoft's actions the same as Bioware's actions.  Bioware investigated the leak, found it came from Microsoft.  Microsoft scrambles to cover their collective behinds by trying to quash the leak, all videos of it, and the spoilers.

<snip>

It's obvious Microsoft is saving face.

I saw an article saying that the C&D came from EA. You're saying it came from MS?

According to NeoGaf (when I looked this AM...my time), they said it came from MS.  I believe that BW had a hand in this, but the letter/warning came from MS.

-Polaris

[aridor1570]

onelifecrisis wrote...

RiouHotaru wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

They aren't that worried?  I guess you've been seeing different tweets and actions (culimating in a Microsoft C&D letterto NeoGaf) than I have.  I'd say from the reactions that Bioware is plenty worried.

-Polaris

Edit:  As for the rest, what I am saying is if you are dealing with people, especially dissapointed/angry people, then classic Rhetoric isn't going to work.  You have to understand and aknowledge how your customers think even if it's illogical.

I don't consider Microsoft's actions the same as Bioware's actions.  Bioware investigated the leak, found it came from Microsoft.  Microsoft scrambles to cover their collective behinds by trying to quash the leak, all videos of it, and the spoilers.

<snip>

It's obvious Microsoft is saving face.

I saw an article saying that the C&D came from EA. You're saying it came from MS?

I know you're surprised but it did.

[onelifecrisis]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Ok, last warning. Stop the arguing and fighting or people will lose their posting ability here.

But! But! Gngh! 

Fine. <_<

...

...

Umm...

Bioware is awesome?
Also, I like rainbows.
Okay time to find another thread.

[KingDan97]

IanPolaris wrote...

KingDan97 wrote...
Blame the son for the sins of the father, good threory, except that father was the black sheep of the family.

I made the comparison because it's apt.  DA2 is what happens (at least to a large degree) when you DON'T take the time needed to produce a game correctly.  Consider that even with the extended date, ME3 is only getting about 4-6 more months of Dev time than DA2 did.....that along with the leaked info does not bode well.  It does show that the story has to be (at least nearly) written long before production really kicks into high gear...or the results can be....unfortunate.

-Polaris

That along with the fact that most of DA2's combet took place in caves and ME3 takes place on a different planet for each mission means that the main trap of DA2 is completely out of the equation, the fact that UE3 is much more user friendly than Bioware's in house engine means that they need less time to develop the levels, mixed in with the fact that this is their third game on the engine, so their programmers are much more adept at working with it.

As for the encounters most enemy introductory sequences are handled by the cinematics team and all enemie encounters start in front of you, and based on the fact that apparently the story team has been allowed to work on their end for an apparent majority of the project, your point is moot.

DA2's primary issues did not stem from story, they stemmed from poor enemy placement, and a lack of level variety due to space constraints the team put on themselves. Any complaints about the story stemmed from a lack of player agency so far as Meredith's actions, and as in real life, you just can't convince everyone.

As a counterpoint, ME2 went into full development in February of '08. That means it got, look at that the same 2 years ME3 is getting, and given the fact that the levels are easier to create as you get more experience in the engine, that means that ME3 COULD BE as good as ME2.

Edit: Started typing before you put your post in Chris, please no bans:crying:

Modifié par KingDan97, 08 novembre 2011 - 07:43 .

[aridor1570]

Already read what you've said.