343 réponses à ce sujet

[Killjoy Cutter]

It doesn't take blood magic to control a national leader, or sway people's minds, or change someone's opinon.

Manipulation and persuation are a basic part of most people's lives.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

It doesn't take blood magic to control a national leader, or sway people's minds, or change someone's opinon.

Manipulation and persuation are a basic part of most people's lives.

Blood magic sure makes it quite simple. Persuasion and simple manipulation are not the same thing as brute-force mind control. With it, a single blood mage could subvert an entire government, turning its leaders, its bureaucrats, its people into mindless thralls. And this is a power you want mages to be able to use?

Moreover, if it is allowed, you can forget about anyone trusting mages. Every encounter with a mage will run the risk of being mentally dominated. Every single mage would be subject to execution or lynching. Whereas, if there are some legal standards as to what magic is acceptable, you can avoid criminalizing all mages and only target the ones that truly threaten the peace.

Keep in mind that not a single blood mage, save the player characters, who we will disregard, since none of the lore-related complications ever happen to them, have ever seen a remotely good outcome arise from their blood magic.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 15 décembre 2011 - 08:58 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

You're still using arguments to condemn blood magic that apply equally to a host of things you say you're not condemning, and the only difference is "it's blood magic".

[Johnny Blaze1978]

But it doesn't mean mages should be persacuted

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy, if I kill you with a bat, I'll have plenty of evidence on my person, as well as a plainly obvious murder weapon, Moreover, only you will be dead. Furthermore, a baseball bat is not primarily a murder weapon. A ball player who picks one up does not immediately bludgeon the umpire.

Blood magic is almost exclusively used in applications that control minds and summon demons. How many catastrophes have to happen before one realizes that it can only ever be used to harm? Even its use can put people in danger - Merrill was using it in a heavily populated area. What if she ripped open the Veil and demons poured into the alienage?

Also, blood magic can kill or enslave dozens, perhaps even hundreds of people. A basebal bat, a car, a gun? With our current level of policing, only a few would be able to break past twenty kills. Very few people have Rambo-like killing talents.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 15 décembre 2011 - 09:05 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

How many blood mages do we see rip open the veil accidentaly, as opposed to "safe" mages?

How many blood mages do we see overwhelmed with fear or anger in a moment of stress and turn into abominations, as opposed to "safe" mages?

How many people can "safe" magic kill in a single outburst?

Blood magic doesn't come across as any more dangerous as any other magic.


As for the other comparisons, you can try to establish all the false divides you want, the same arguments about risk and threat and misuse apply to a multitude of mundane, everyday, real-world objects and tools, as apply to blood magic.

[DrFumb1ezX]

Do you cut off the hand of a child because she MIGHT kill someone with a weapon?

Blood magic is a tool, one that, I admit, can be used for great evil. Merrill does not have ANY inclination to unleash a horde of demons upon Kirkwall, that I have seen. In fact, I would trust her with blood magic before any Hawke, including my own.

Even gameplay-wise, the worst she does with it it rend flesh and blood from the inside, unlike Hawke, who sacrifices his/her companions to regain health, enslaves enemies' minds, and steals life from the dead.

[CrimsonZephyr]

soccerchick wrote...

Do you cut off the hand of a child because she MIGHT kill someone with a weapon?

Blood magic is a tool, one that, I admit, can be used for great evil. Merrill does not have ANY inclination to unleash a horde of demons upon Kirkwall, that I have seen. In fact, I would trust her with blood magic before any Hawke, including my own.

Even gameplay-wise, the worst she does with it it rend flesh and blood from the inside, unlike Hawke, who sacrifices his/her companions to regain health, enslaves enemies' minds, and steals life from the dead.

Yes, but she gained the power itself by making a pact with a demon, and her actions allowed a demon to nearly get a foothold in her mind. Simply saying, "Hawke, come with so you can kill me if I become an abomination" isn't enough. What if she had killed Hawke? Then all of the Dalish in the camp, and all of Kirkwall would have been in danger.

None of this would be an issue if blood magic were never used except in extremely exceptional and extremely desperate circumstances under strict regulation. But frankly, I wouldn't even trust Merrill, to be honest. People claim that Merrill took precautions, but none of these would be necessary (and they didn't work to begin with) if she had not used blood magic, period. And her experiments? They accomplished precisely nothing of note.

In short, I would trust the lawful good above the criminal who commits crime in the name of good above the plain the criminal.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 15 décembre 2011 - 11:42 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Yes, but she gained the power itself by making a pact with a demon, and her actions allowed a demon to nearly get a foothold in her mind. Simply saying, "Hawke, come with so you can kill me if I become an abomination" isn't enough. What if she had killed Hawke? Then all of the Dalish in the camp, and all of Kirkwall would have been in danger.

Kinda hard for a demon that's sundered from the Fade to get a foothold in the mind of a mage that says she has no intention of freeing Audacity.

Not to mention we don't even know if Merrill knew how to free Audacity. She knows that a powerful magic spell cast on the idol is the only thing that could've freed him, but we don't know if she knows how to even cast said spell.

None of this would be an issue if blood magic were never used except in extremely exceptional and extremely desperate circumstances under strict regulation. But frankly, I wouldn't even trust Merrill, to be honest. People claim that Merrill took precautions, but none of these would be necessary (and they didn't work to begin with) if she had not used blood magic, period. And her experiments? They accomplished precisely nothing of note.

Marethari's the one who decided to stay there for 7 years. Merrill left the clan and was tied to them no longer. Marethari couldn't get that through her thick skull and decided to stay there because she wanted Merrill back, going so far as to ruin Merrill's standing within the clan and then had the audacity to ask her to come back as if the clan members would just forget about everything Marethari told them and everything would be okay.

[TEWR]

Things Merrill finds abhorrent or won't ever do with blood magic:

1) Sacrificing people for power. In Fenris' Act II quest she says that it's ghastly that anyone could ever do something like that.

2) Raising the dead. In Act I's quest Act of Mercy she says that it's a ghastly act to raise the dead.

3) Summoning/freeing demons. In her Act III quest she tells Hawke she has no intention of freeing Audacity.

Yup, Merrill's definitely a bad egg alright! [/sarcasm]

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 décembre 2011 - 01:14 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

None of this would be an issue if blood magic were never used except in extremely exceptional and extremely desperate circumstances under strict regulation. But frankly, I wouldn't even trust Merrill, to be honest. People claim that Merrill took precautions, but none of these would be necessary (and they didn't work to begin with) if she had not used blood magic, period. And her experiments? They accomplished precisely nothing of note.

Marethari's the one who decided to stay there for 7 years. Merrill left the clan and was tied to them no longer. Marethari couldn't get that through her thick skull and decided to stay there because she wanted Merrill back, going so far as to ruin Merrill's standing within the clan and then had the audacity to ask her to come back as if the clan members would just forget about everything Marethari told them and everything would be okay.

And would any of that have happened if Merrill had just stayed away from the blood magic? No. She ends up with a worthless mirror, a dead Keeper, and a clan that has either ostracized her or died in battle with her. None of that would have happened if she had stuck to normal magic, did not make a pact with a demon, and never touched that mirror. That "uncovering a piece of her past" nonsense is pure rubbish - the only thing Merrill did was get people killed. Even if they did not follow her expectations, they had no reason to, especially not on her account. Why should they leave because she is using dark magic? What right does she have to say that?

The game is filled with instances where using blood magic simple causes problems. Merrill is no exception. The only way to deal with them, the only way for mages to deal with them, is by summary execution.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 décembre 2011 - 01:32 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...


And would any of that have happened if Merrill had just stayed away from the blood magic? No.

The Chantry's laws are not the laws of the Dalish. Why should Merrill let the Eluvian just sit there while the clan is stranded on Sundermount?

There's absolutely no way she could've gotten any lyrium.

She ends up with a worthless mirror,

She managed to build something from scratch that baffled even the Tevinter Magisters, who were only able to unlock the communication part of them through -- well what do you know? -- blood magic. 

a dead Keeper,

 
Marethari made her own choices and she was Merrill's Keeper no longer.

and a clan that has either ostracized her

Because Marethari made them hate her by feeding them baseless lies and they chose to make Merrill their scapegoat for all of their problems instead of facing reality. The only one who was sane enough to see who was really the problem was Ilen.

or died in battle with her.

They made the choice to attack the party. I will not hold Merrill responsible for a decision made by a bunch of adults. 

None of that would have happened if she had stuck to normal magic, did not make a pact with a demon,

What pact? 

• Merrill: Teach me blood magic to cleanse the Eluvian of the taint?
• Audacity: Okay"
• *7 years later*
• Merrill: I've exhausted every other option. My only other option is to re-establish contact with the demon whom I've only met twice before since he was around since the fall of Arlathan and the arcane is eternal in the Fade. 

and never touched that mirror.

Sure, tell the Dalish to cast aside what makes them Dalish. Their whole mantra deals with finding ancient artifacts from the past that deal with the Elvhenan.

That "uncovering a piece of her past" nonsense is pure rubbish - the only thing Merrill did was get people killed.

She didn't kill anyone.

Marethari fed the clan baseless lies that led to Pol running into the arms of a crazed Varterral of his own volition.

Marethari fed the clan baseless lies that led to the clan making Merrill their scapegoat for everything and attacking her of their own volition.

People have to take responsibility for their own actions. Merrill did. She knew the blood magic she was using would not go over well with her clan so she left. That way, they wouldn't have to deal with it anymore.

Even if they did not follow her expectations, they had no reason to, especially not on her account. Why should they leave because she is using dark magic? What right does she have to say that?

They should've left because they were camping out near a friggin' city for 7 years. Marethari doesn't even send word to another clan until 6 years after Merrill left.

The Dalish are nomadic because if they stay in one place for too long then humans get riled up against them. Why do you think Marethari made the clan move after the incident with the 3 humans?

Because staying in one place for too long is detrimental to the clan's existence.

The game is filled with instances where using blood magic simple causes problems. Merrill is no exception. The only way to deal with them, the only way for mages to deal with them, is by summary execution.

I'm sure you wouldn't be saying that if a Templar was raping you -- if you were a mage -- and you were forced to do 1 of 3 things:

1) Deal with it on a day-to-day basis because you can't report the Templar to anyone because you'll be made Tranquil for "lying"
2) Kill yourself
3) use blood magic.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

soccerchick wrote...

Do you cut off the hand of a child because she MIGHT kill someone with a weapon?

Blood magic is a tool, one that, I admit, can be used for great evil. Merrill does not have ANY inclination to unleash a horde of demons upon Kirkwall, that I have seen. In fact, I would trust her with blood magic before any Hawke, including my own.

Even gameplay-wise, the worst she does with it it rend flesh and blood from the inside, unlike Hawke, who sacrifices his/her companions to regain health, enslaves enemies' minds, and steals life from the dead.

Yes, but she gained the power itself by making a pact with a demon, and her actions allowed a demon to nearly get a foothold in her mind. Simply saying, "Hawke, come with so you can kill me if I become an abomination" isn't enough. What if she had killed Hawke? Then all of the Dalish in the camp, and all of Kirkwall would have been in danger.

None of this would be an issue if blood magic were never used except in extremely exceptional and extremely desperate circumstances under strict regulation. But frankly, I wouldn't even trust Merrill, to be honest. People claim that Merrill took precautions, but none of these would be necessary (and they didn't work to begin with) if she had not used blood magic, period. And her experiments? They accomplished precisely nothing of note.

In short, I would trust the lawful good above the criminal who commits crime in the name of good above the plain the criminal.

At no point do we see a demon "almost get a foothold" in Merrill's mind. 

PS:  LoL @ "lawful good" and all other such AD&D pseudo-morality nonsense.  "Alignments", heh. 

[Killjoy Cutter]

It's amazing and perplexing how some people seem determined to hold Merrill responsible for all of Merethari's mistakes and all of her clans prejudices and superstitions.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...


And would any of that have happened if Merrill had just stayed away from the blood magic? No.

The Chantry's laws are not the laws of the Dalish. Why should Merrill let the Eluvian just sit there while the clan is stranded on Sundermount?

There's absolutely no way she could've gotten any lyrium.

Then she should have done nothing. She was working on the mirror in a hovel in Kirkwall, a city which follows the laws of the Chantry. An Orlesian living in Ferelden must obey Fereldan laws, so too must a Dalish living in Chantry land. It doesn't matter what she is. If she is living in Chantry territory, she is obligated to follow Chantry law. Aveline should have had her hung, miserable excuse for an officer of the law.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 décembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...


And would any of that have happened if Merrill had just stayed away from the blood magic? No.

The Chantry's laws are not the laws of the Dalish. Why should Merrill let the Eluvian just sit there while the clan is stranded on Sundermount?

There's absolutely no way she could've gotten any lyrium.

Then she should have done nothing. She was working on the mirror in a hovel in Kirkwall, a city which follows the laws of the Chantry. An Orlesian living in Ferelden must obey Fereldan laws, so too must a Dalish living in Chantry land. It doesn't matter what she is. If she is living in Chantry territory, she is obligated to follow Chantry law. Aveline should have had her hung, miserable excuse for an officer of the law.

Name for me any instance where she used blood magic after moving to Kirkwall -- which is after she used blood magic in her clan to cleanse the mirror of the taint -- that wasn't self-defense, if her tactics are even set to her using Blood of the First.

Like cutscenes, codexes, banters, etc.

[Killjoy Cutter]

Maybe Avaline is a mature enough person to understand the difference between justice and the spirit of the law on one hand, and blind obedience to rote law on the other.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...


And would any of that have happened if Merrill had just stayed away from the blood magic? No.

The Chantry's laws are not the laws of the Dalish. Why should Merrill let the Eluvian just sit there while the clan is stranded on Sundermount?

There's absolutely no way she could've gotten any lyrium.

Then she should have done nothing. She was working on the mirror in a hovel in Kirkwall, a city which follows the laws of the Chantry. An Orlesian living in Ferelden must obey Fereldan laws, so too must a Dalish living in Chantry land. It doesn't matter what she is. If she is living in Chantry territory, she is obligated to follow Chantry law. Aveline should have had her hung, miserable excuse for an officer of the law.

Name for me any instance where she used blood magic after moving to Kirkwall -- which is after she used blood magic in her clan to cleanse the mirror of the taint -- that wasn't self-defense, if her tactics are even set to her using Blood of the First.

Like cutscenes, codexes, banters, etc.

When she shows you the mirror - in her house - which she explains she had cleared with blood magic, lacking lyrium. You never see the mirror before that scene. She reveals all of this in Act II, when she has been living in Kirkwall for 3 years.

Yes, the spirit of the law states that you should take a person at their own assurances that their using a highly dangerous and unpredictable art with no supervision or accountability in a populated area will not lead to negative consequences. In this case, blind adherence is the spirit of the law. Aveline is obligated by her position to have Merrill executed, Anders executed, and Isabela jailed. In the former two cases, a lot of idiocy would have been prevented if she did her goddamn job.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 décembre 2011 - 06:10 .

[TEWR]

When she shows you the mirror - in her house - which she explains she had cleared with blood magic, lacking lyrium. You never see the mirror before that scene. She reveals all of this in Act II, when she has been living in Kirkwall for 3 years.

That happened prior to even meeting her.

She tells you she had cleansed the shard after she was taught blood magic by Audacity during the Act II quest, which means that it was cleansed during her time in the clan since that was one of the key reasons she left.

Incidentally, she was working on the shard when you meet her.

So once again I ask you, examples of known use of blood magic.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

When she shows you the mirror - in her house - which she explains she had cleared with blood magic, lacking lyrium. You never see the mirror before that scene. She reveals all of this in Act II, when she has been living in Kirkwall for 3 years.

That happened prior to even meeting her.

She tells you she had cleansed the shard after she was taught blood magic by Audacity during the Act II quest, which means that it was cleansed during her time in the clan since that was one of the key reasons she left.

Incidentally, she was working on the shard when you meet her.

So once again I ask you, examples of known use of blood magic.

There is an entire mirror there. Are you telling me she didn't need to use any more to cleanse the rest of it? Keep in mind that entire mirrors bear the taint.

And regardless, Dalish have no land, ergo no land over which their laws hold jurisdiction. Sundermount and the area around it are part of the Free Marches - Chantry lands. Using blood magic anywhere in White Andrastian Thedas is illegal. It's why Dalish are hunted down. By refusing to obey the laws of the land, they are brigands.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 décembre 2011 - 06:13 .

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...


There is an entire mirror there. Are you telling me she didn't need to use any more to cleanse the rest of it? Keep in mind that entire mirrors bear the taint.

David Gaider explained that she took a shard of the original Eluvian and built an entirely new one by extrapolating from known lore and notes on the Eluvians.

And obviously by using more glass. Untainted glass. It's why she needs a carving tool. She needs to get it all evened out.

Once something's cleansed, it's not going to infect anything else.

Same question as before. Name an instance of Merrill using a blood magic spell that wasn't self-defense if her tactics were set to it.

And regardless, Dalish have no land. Sundermount and the area around it are part of the Free Marches - Chantry lands. Using blood magic anywhere in White Andrastian Thedas is illegal. It's why Dalish are hunted down. By refusing to obey the laws of the land, they are brigands.

So would you have an issue with this if it happened in Tevinter or in the lands the Dalish are allowed to occupy in Rivain?

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 16 décembre 2011 - 06:17 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...


There is an entire mirror there. Are you telling me she didn't need to use any more to cleanse the rest of it? Keep in mind that entire mirrors bear the taint.

David Gaider explained that she took a shard of the original Eluvian and built an entirely new one by extrapolating from known lore and notes on the Eluvians.

Once something's cleansed, it's not going to infect anything else.

And regardless, Dalish have no land. Sundermount and the area around it are part of the Free Marches - Chantry lands. Using blood magic anywhere in White Andrastian Thedas is illegal. It's why Dalish are hunted down. By refusing to obey the laws of the land, they are brigands.

So would you have an issue with this if it happened in Tevinter or in the lands the Dalish are allowed to occupy in Rivain?

The laws the law. Tevinter allows blood magic and it's Hell on Thedas, but it's still allowed by the law.

And if you want me to name a case: cleansing the mirror. As all the Free Marches are Chantry land by right, as I previously stated, she had broken the law by using - and admitting to using - blood magic. Ergo,her punishment, as with all blood mages, must be death.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 décembre 2011 - 06:19 .

[TEWR]

The laws the law. Tevinter allows blood magic and it's Hell on Thedas, but it's still allowed by the law.

And if you want me to name a case: cleansing the mirror. As all the Free Marches are Chantry land by right, as I previously stated, she had broken the law by using - and admitting to using - blood magic. Ergo,her punishment, as with all blood mages, must be death.

Death isn't the automatic sentence for blood mages. Leliana says that the Chantry would take in blood mages and Cullen is willing to spare the mages involved in the idiotic questline Best Served Cold, if the Champion intervenes.

What about the Warden? The Warden became a Warden through blood magic. Should he die? Should he die if he takes up blood magic to defeat the Blight in Ferelden and continues to use it in Amaranthine, Amgarrak, and on his trek for Morrigan?

Should Hawke die for being a blood mage?

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The laws the law. Tevinter allows blood magic and it's Hell on Thedas, but it's still allowed by the law.

And if you want me to name a case: cleansing the mirror. As all the Free Marches are Chantry land by right, as I previously stated, she had broken the law by using - and admitting to using - blood magic. Ergo,her punishment, as with all blood mages, must be death.

Death isn't the automatic sentence for blood mages. Leliana says that the Chantry would take in blood mages and Cullen is willing to spare the mages involved in the idiotic questline Best Served Cold, if the Champion intervenes.

What about the Warden? The Warden became a Warden through blood magic. Should he die? Should he die if he takes up blood magic to defeat the Blight in Ferelden and continues to use it in Amaranthine, Amgarrak, and on his trek for Morrigan?

Should Hawke die for being a blood mage?

If he took up blood magic, the Warden should be killed. As should any Hawke. Especially a Warden who became an Arl. Having a leader as a blood mage is asking for a repeat of Tevinter, when combined with the vast power a Warden already possesses.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 16 décembre 2011 - 06:38 .

[dragonflight288]

Death isn't the automatic sentence for blood mages. Leliana says that the Chantry would take in blood mages and Cullen is willing to spare the mages involved in the idiotic questline Best Served Cold, if the Champion intervenes.

What about the Warden? The Warden became a Warden through blood magic. Should he die? Should he die if he takes up blood magic to defeat the Blight in Ferelden and continues to use it in Amaranthine, Amgarrak, and on his trek for Morrigan?

Should Hawke die for being a blood mage?

If the Chantry knew he was, then they would answer yes. If they knew Merrill was a blood mage, they would try to kill her. Grey Wardens are generally exempt because they save the world.

And there isn't any proof that Merrill uses blood magic after cleansing a small shard, from which she rebuilt an entire eluvian. She simply didn't know how to activate it.

People who hate Merrill for the actions of her clan, I have a simple response. Is Merethari a legal adult or not? Was Pol a legal adult, or not? If they are adults, then shouldn't they accept responsibility for their own actions? If they are free to make a choice, that must also mean they must accept the consequences of the choice, intended or not. And if they are not responsible for their choices, then Merrill is not responsible for hers either. You may as well blame Hawke (as de facto leader), Isabella (corrupting influence, or Varic (who tells the story) for their actions despite not being involved.

Merethari needs to be given accountability for her role in what happened. Same with the dalish hunters who commit suicide by attacking Hawke and Merrill. Merrill did not start the fight.