343 réponses à ce sujet

[andraip]

Merril is sweet and adorable, maybe a bit to naive for her own good, but that's her character. She is also very responsible with her use of Bloodmagic, you can notice that she hasn't any "evil" Bloodmagic spell and only uses her own Blood for fuel.

[Bayz]

jlb524 wrote...

Oh yes, I read your post "That I think deserves to die."

When discussing works of literature, using phrases like 'I think' tells me this is 'your' opinion on it (or an event or a character within it). Not your character's opinion or other characters in the work of literature.

For example, "I think destroying the Anvil of the Void is the right thing to do because forcing people to 'die' so they will become a golem is wrong." This is my opinion on something that happened in DA:O.

This is different from, "My mage Warden thinks destroying the Anvil of the void is a wasted opportunity as stopping the Blight must come first."

Or, "Alistair thinks that the Anvil must be destroyed because it's power could be abused."

Thus, one would assume that you were analyzing the character from 'your' perspective. I retorted because I found it humorous that 'you' would give that particular analysis of a character (and the elves in general) and then call her 'immature' in another post.

Now you are saying that it's not 'your' opinion...so what is 'your' opinion on Merrill?

Also, I'm curious what 'your' opinion is on Zathrian and the elves in general?

I've answered both already. Again those are your assumptions and opinions, of vital importance to you.

Has gone for too long so i will assume you are trolling me again. Besides too many questions and it is getting creepy and the thread has been hijacked, you want to continue PM me and I might answer.

andraip wrote...

Merril is sweet and adorable, maybe a bit
to naive for her own good, but that's her character. She is also very
responsible with her use of Bloodmagic, you can notice that she hasn't
any "evil" Bloodmagic spell and only uses her own Blood for
fuel.

What actually amused me is that she is quite more aknowledged on blood magic and demon\\spirit dealings than Marethari herself...

Modifié par Bayz, 17 décembre 2011 - 10:16 .

[jlb524]

Bayz wrote...
Has gone for too long so i will assume you are trolling me again. Besides too many questions and it is getting creepy and the thread has been hijacked, you want to continue PM me and I might answer.

Ironically, I'm pretty sure you are the one who's trolling.

Your first post could have contained 'your' opinion but instead you posted the 'strong' opinion of your 'character'...which was done to evoke a strong response from the regulars that post in this thread.  You could have said, "I don't like her because I find her immature." and went on from there...of course that post would have probably been ignored.  

Well, you've succeeded.

[SinnSly]

andraip wrote...

Merril is sweet and adorable, maybe a bit to naive for her own good, but that's her character. She is also very responsible with her use of Bloodmagic, you can notice that she hasn't any "evil" Bloodmagic spell and only uses her own Blood for fuel.

*Hug* At last another who understands ;D

[andraip]

SinnSly wrote...

*Hug* At last another who understands ;D

*Hugs back* You are not alone.

[Bayz]

Aaaawww...pie anyone?

[TEWR]

For example, "I think destroying the Anvil of the Void is the right thing to do because forcing people to 'die' so they will become a golem is wrong." This is my opinion on something that happened in DA:O

Not to detract from your point, but they don't really die. Shale and Caridin are proof that the Dwarves don't really die upon becoming a Golem, and Caridin's journal still acknowledges them as who they were.

Also, anyone else wondering if the Anvil of the Void could be considered a type of blood magic?

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

For example, "I think destroying the Anvil of the Void is the right thing to do because forcing people to 'die' so they will become a golem is wrong." This is my opinion on something that happened in DA:O

Not to detract from your point, but they don't really die. Shale and Caridin are proof that the Dwarves don't really die upon becoming a Golem, and Caridin's journal still acknowledges them as who they were.

Also, anyone else wondering if the Anvil of the Void could be considered a type of blood magic?

Really? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure creating a golem was basically putting a person in the golem shell, pouring lyrium inside, and then hammering them into shape. I'm pretty sure it'd be impossible without the lyrium.

And if it is blood magic, it's just another example of how ghastly the art is.

[TEWR]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Really? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure creating a golem was basically putting a person in the golem shell, pouring lyrium inside, and then hammering them into shape. I'm pretty sure it'd be impossible without the lyrium.

You're right, but I never said that lyrium wasn't required.

How else do you explain Shale and Caridin being able to remember who they were? The soul lives on even if the body may not.

And if it is blood magic, it's just another example of how ghastly the art is.

Not to me. Of course, I'm biased in that I'm a Dwarven Noble who retook the throne upon returning to his lands.

The Golems have helped fight the Darkspawn, and the majority of people who were turned into Golems were willing volunteers.

I don't approve of Branka being the one to work the Anvil, but the Anvil is needed for the Dwarves to even have a shot at surviving the Darkspawn.

To destroy the Anvil basically condemns the Dwarves to extinction.

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Really? I don't think so. I'm pretty sure creating a golem was basically putting a person in the golem shell, pouring lyrium inside, and then hammering them into shape. I'm pretty sure it'd be impossible without the lyrium.

You're right, but I never said that lyrium wasn't required.

How else do you explain Shale and Caridin being able to remember who they were? The soul lives on even if the body may not.

And if it is blood magic, it's just another example of how ghastly the art is.

Not to me. Of course, I'm biased in that I'm a Dwarven Noble who retook the throne upon returning to his lands.

The Golems have helped fight the Darkspawn, and the majority of people who were turned into Golems were willing volunteers.

I don't approve of Branka being the one to work the Anvil, but the Anvil is needed for the Dwarves to even have a shot at surviving the Darkspawn.

To destroy the Anvil basically condemns the Dwarves to extinction.

Because their bodies weren't entirely destroyed, merely encased within hardened stone, steel, and lyrium. Blood magic is magic through manipulation of blood, but from all descriptions, the magic seems to stem from lyrium and not from the blood. The Harvester was a result of combining Tevinter blood magic with dwarven engineering, and that turned out horribly.

Then the Dwarves go toside. The Anvil is just too powerful a weapon to be used, seeing as it took the original king of Orzammar all of two seconds to start abusing it's power. The thing is, philosopher-kings don't exist. There is no man so completely governed by reason and virtue that, upon receiving such unfathomable power, would use it with responsibility. So, I have to contest the assertion that mostly willing volunteers became golems. Yes, Shale was willing, but she was one of the first, before Orzammar took control and started forcing political prisoners to be hammered into shape.

The thing is that the darkspawn, even to dwarves, are not the be-all-end-all, and to maim the rest of society in a quest to defeat them without first seeking alternatives is no solution at all. And no, the dwarves have not exhausted all options, because the comprohensive social reforms behind getting the casteless on the frontlines and off the streets would do a huge amount to replenish dwarven manpower.

It's for this reason that I find Grey Wardens assuming control of an arling to be so objectionable. One, they are a foreign power. It would be the same as if the Orlesian Empress took control of a region. Two, they are legally permitted to use blood magic, and combining that with political power is simply the Imperium all over again. It is simply too much power for them to hold, especally considering Blights only happen once in a blue moon and governance takes more than throwing troops at darkspawn lines.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 18 décembre 2011 - 08:02 .

[TEWR]

Then the Dwarves go toside. The Anvil is just too powerful a weapon to be used, seeing as it took the original king of Orzammar all of two seconds to start abusing it's power. The thing is, philosopher-kings don't exist. There is no man so completely governed by reason and virtue that, upon receiving such unfathomable power, would use it with responsibility. So, I have to contest the assertion that mostly willing volunteers became golems. Yes, Shale was willing, but she was one of the first, before Orzammar took control and started forcing political prisoners to be hammered into shape.

Dwarves don't want to go topside. They'd lose their Stone-sense. Those that do are either exiled or casteless.

And I've never subscribed -- at least not entirely -- to the idea of "absolute power corrupts absolutely". There's certainly many instances to show it, but perhaps it's my idealist nature that prevents me from completely believing that would always be the case.

The thing is that the darkspawn, even to dwarves, are not the be-all-end-all, and to maim the rest of society in a quest to defeat them without first seeking alternatives is no solution at all

There are only a few viable alternatives:

1) Aid from other countries. The only one that would even consider it is Ferelden
2) Wardens. Something Xanthos Aeducan does during his rule.
3) Mages. This would only work after the Chantry has fallen to pieces, what with the threat of an Exalted March.
4) Casteless being given greater rights. Something Xanthos Aeducan also does.

. And no, the dwarves have not exhausted all options, because the comprohensive social reforms behind getting the casteless on the frontlines and off the streets would do a huge amount to replenish dwarven manpower.

True, I've often said that in other threads. But when I say they've exhausted all other options, I meant from a traditionalist Dwarven standpoint.

Xanthos, however, isn't a traditionalist. He's a reformist. But that has no real bearing on the conversation.


EDIT: Also, blood magic isn't just about manipulation of blood. It's also about gaining abilities from blood.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 18 décembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Then the Dwarves go toside. The Anvil is just too powerful a weapon to be used, seeing as it took the original king of Orzammar all of two seconds to start abusing it's power. The thing is, philosopher-kings don't exist. There is no man so completely governed by reason and virtue that, upon receiving such unfathomable power, would use it with responsibility. So, I have to contest the assertion that mostly willing volunteers became golems. Yes, Shale was willing, but she was one of the first, before Orzammar took control and started forcing political prisoners to be hammered into shape.

Dwarves don't want to go topside. They'd lose their Stone-sense. Those that do are either exiled or casteless.

And I've never subscribed -- at least not entirely -- to the idea of "absolute power corrupts absolutely". There's certainly many instances to show it, but perhaps it's my idealist nature that prevents me from completely believing that would always be the case.

The problem with dealing with power is that it is naive to view it according to exceptions. Imagine, for example, you declared a medicine to be ineffective because 3% of the population did not respond to it, whereas 97% did, or if you declared a venomous plant to be harmless because one person in twenty did not die, while nineteen did. The reason things like precedent, checks, and balances exist in any system worth its salt is that giving power without any of them in place is like rolling the dice. Sure, they might somehow turn out to be great, but what if they're not? What if they're corrupt, selfish, monstrous, violent, or all of the above? There may be times where such far reach power is necessary in the short-term, but to build long-term assumptions on the belief that people are fundamentally good is naive and dangerous. People are flawed, and giving them the power to do what they want, how they want, when they want only magnifies those flaws.

It's the same with Merrill. Sure, she might use it responsibly, but what are the legions of lunatic blood mages. Using her as an example is myopic because blood magic is an art where the majority of the practitioners are lunatics, ergo she is not representative of them whatsoever. Ergo, blood magic should still be a highly illegal art, as it is clear the only form of regulation for it is either a crackdown or self-regulation. Consider the mental state of most blood mages and then consider why the latter option is not feasible.

And Ethereal, I've seen you mention the Litany of Adralla before, but that's not a particularly efficient remedy, given that it is effectively just a piece of paper to the uneducated masses. Copies of it would likely be used as fuel for a fire or toilet paper before it would be used as a ward against blood magic.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 18 décembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[TEWR]

The problem with dealing with power is that it is naive to view it according to exceptions. Imagine, for example, you declared a medicine to be ineffective because 3% of the population did not respond to it, whereas 97% did, or if you declared a venomous plant to be harmless because one person in twenty did not die, while nineteen did. The reason things like precedent, checks, and balances exist in any system worth its salt is that giving power without any of them in place is like rolling the dice. Sure, they might somehow turn out to be great, but what if they're not? What if they're corrupt, selfish, monstrous, violent, or all of the above? There may be times where such far reach power is necessary in the short-term, but to build long-term assumptions on the belief that people are fundamentally good is naive and dangerous. People are flawed, and giving them the power to do what they want, how they want, when they want only magnifies those flaws.

I understand that people are flawed.

Part of me just wants to believe that not every monarch would be corrupted by having such power at their fingertips. It's foolish idealism I know, but I like to think that there will be people out there that -- if made into a monarch -- wouldn't succumb to corruption.

So I don't see it as "absolute power corrupts absolutely". I just simply see it as "the weak will let power corrupt them. The strong will not".

which is more or less the same thing, but to me one denotes that there will be exceptions, while the other seems to make it seem like it will always happen.

It's the same with Merrill. Sure, she might use it responsibly, but what are the legions of lunatic blood mages. Using her as an example is myopic because blood magic is an art where the majority of the practitioners are lunatics, ergo she is not representative of them whatsoever. Ergo, blood magic should still be a highly illegal art, as it is clear the only form of regulation for it is either a crackdown or self-regulation. Consider the mental state of most blood mages and then consider why the latter option is not feasible.

But that's no reason to say that Merrill should die for being one of the few good blood mages. Blood magic isn't really the problem.

Were blood magic to be regulated in such a way that only those people that are of sound mind and conscience are the ones to learn it, there would be less problems. It might not disappear wholesale, but the problems would be eased up a bit.

It's kinda like.... joining the armed forces, I guess? You have to undergo a Psych exam I think and those that aren't mentally stable don't join the armed forces.

Usually. Sometimes the ones that can mask their true psyche slip through the cracks.

And Ethereal, I've seen you mention the Litany of Adralla before, but that's not a particularly efficient remedy, given that it is effectively just a piece of paper to the uneducated masses. Copies of it would likely be used as fuel for a fire or toilet paper before it would be used as a ward against blood magic.

If the people aren't educated on its use sure. But were it implemented, how it can be used would be taught to the masses. Theoretically anyway. If its the Chantry doing it, they might just continue being dicks.

It would reduce the rate of possessions induced by Abominations and rogue Maleficarum were people to know how its used.

[CrimsonZephyr]

But would you gamble your life and your freedom that the person you choose to be monarch, or who becomes monarch through forces of arms or inheritance, gains their power, which is unrestricted? What if nineteen men were megalomaniacs, and one was reasonable. Would you trust handing absolute power to these people on such long odds? It doesn't have to be every monarch - just one, and then everything is ruined. And if most succumb to power, what guarantee or safeguard do you have against their corruption? You have none. Wishing or wanting to believe something to be true doesn't take away from what is actually true. Exceptions are worthless when those who hold true to the maxim are legion.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 18 décembre 2011 - 10:51 .

[Bayz]

Be always exceptical of those who are or might be in power.

By the way how do you feel about Marethari's Influence between Merril and the Clan?

While I don't sympathise with Merril too much, I believe Marethari was like an over protective mother for her, which ended up being her undoing because she diminished the authority that Merril could have had in the clan, by giving her some resposibilities.

Instead Marethari treats the Eluvian finding and Merril's obsession with it first as a childish past time and then as the horror unleased...in front of the whole clan (adding up to the fear for blood magic many Dalish coming from the human lands might have already had)

If Marethari had given Merril a bit more of confidence, keeping in mind that she was to become her sucessor, if she hadn't treated her too much as a child or be too protective on her, she might have had her clashes but the clan might actually started to respect her instead of seeing her as a weirdo.

The stage is yours now!

Modifié par Bayz, 18 décembre 2011 - 12:06 .

[SinnSly]

andraip wrote...

SinnSly wrote...

*Hug* At last another who understands ;D

*Hugs back* You are not alone.

Glad to know I am not alone =)
No one can get me to hate Merrill, I bloody adore her 

Modifié par SinnSly, 18 décembre 2011 - 02:14 .

[JJDrakken]

She is sorta like the Tali of Dragon Age Universe, people are already starting early to prevent her rise up like Tali's. They are like, look There Talimancers, like we need Merrilmancers too.

That's how I see it. Beyond that, I enjoyed her character quite a bit.


JJ

[TEWR]

Would I? I don't know. Probably not.

But I just know I won't consider it a fact. I'll consider it a highly likely possibility that a king will be corrupted by power. And sometimes even checks and balances fail.

There is no perfect government. Not yet anyway. Maybe a government consisting of elements of various governments would be more effective. That's just my opinion, and whether it would actually work in practice I don't know.

But now we're going away from the actual topic of Merrill and diving into real world political discussions, which is something we unfortunately can't talk about on here.

[SinnSly]

JJDrakken wrote...

She is sorta like the Tali of Dragon Age Universe, people are already starting early to prevent her rise up like Tali's. They are like, look There Talimancers, like we need Merrilmancers too.

That's how I see it. Beyond that, I enjoyed her character quite a bit.


JJ

I love Tali but I hate how little romance options were...
So I'm a Liaramancer =3

Tali is so awesome, my BFF in ME xD

[CrimsonZephyr]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Would I? I don't know. Probably not.

But I just know I won't consider it a fact. I'll consider it a highly likely possibility that a king will be corrupted by power. And sometimes even checks and balances fail.

There is no perfect government. Not yet anyway. Maybe a government consisting of elements of various governments would be more effective. That's just my opinion, and whether it would actually work in practice I don't know.

But now we're going away from the actual topic of Merrill and diving into real world political discussions, which is something we unfortunately can't talk about on here.

My point wasn't to discuss politics, but power. My point was that giving unchecked power and expecting it to go smoothly because a belief that the maxim "absolute power corrupts absolutely" is not universal is naive. Checks and balances can fail, but they fail far less when they actually exist. But on the topic of Merrill - I simply don't trust her claims that she has everything under control or that her self-restraint will be enough with blood magic. Self-restraint is never enough - that's why laws exist.

[Bayz]

But not all laws are good are them? I mean I see it as a balance really between resposibility and the land's law...

My problem with her is that, despite she actually possessing it I kinda have problems believing she is responsable enough to actually control it...Marethari knows her better than Hawke and she dind't trusted her in that respect, not that the over controlling Marethari was a good example anyway...

[DKJaigen]

My point wasn't to discuss politics, but power. My point was that giving unchecked power and expecting it to go smoothly because a belief that the maxim "absolute power corrupts absolutely" is not universal is naive. Checks and balances can fail, but they fail far less when they actually exist. But on the topic of Merrill - I simply don't trust her claims that she has everything under control or that her self-restraint will be enough with blood magic. Self-restraint is never enough - that's why laws exist.

Absolute power doenst exist.It never  existed. its childish immature reasoning in my opinion. The only thing to balance things is equal power amount of power. And yet the templars and chantry foolishly prohibit it while the tevinter imperium does not. if this continues thedas wil fall back under tevinter rule.

[andraip]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
[snip]
It's the same with Merrill. Sure, she might use it responsibly, but what are the legions of lunatic blood mages. Using her as an example is myopic because blood magic is an art where the majority of the practitioners are lunatics, ergo she is not representative of them whatsoever. Ergo, blood magic should still be a highly illegal art, as it is clear the only form of regulation for it is either a crackdown or self-regulation. Consider the mental state of most blood mages and then consider why the latter option is not feasible.
[snip]

You got it wrong, unless there is a study about the sate of mind of Bloodmages done by the Maker himself of with I know nothing.

The thing is you only get to know the Bloodmages if they are lunatics, since the others hardly go on killing sprees. It's the same with the moslems, the ones most people know of are fanatic terrorists, however the majority is with the Al'Quaida.

Malcolm Hawke and Jowan aren't lunatics either, and how will you know if someone is a Bloodmage without seeing him doing bloodmagi things, and most sane mages wouldn't do THAT in public (besides Hawke).

Just because Bloodmagic is easier to detect on lunatics it doesn't mean that the majority of bloodmages are lunatics. And a lot of sane mages wouldn't risk studying bloodmagic in a Chantry controled land either.

EDIT: nothing special

Modifié par andraip, 18 décembre 2011 - 09:44 .

[Bayz]

Malcom is a good example but Jowan, despite not being a lunatic, does screw up big every time he tries to help or do stuff...I used to assume that was due to bloodmagic making some kind of influence in his luck or something but I know that it is not now.

Most bloodmages on Kirkwall are lunatics though, I guess is more due to the veil running thin there than elsewhere, not a general blood mage thing.

Modifié par Bayz, 18 décembre 2011 - 09:53 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Malcolm uses blood magic while being coerced by Grey Wardens, and judging from Bethany's aversion to it, he never used it again.