343 réponses à ce sujet

[CrimsonZephyr]

DKJaigen wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I've seen a lot of people who want to blame Merrill for her clan's troubles and for Merethari dying, when all of that is actually about 100% Merethari's fault.

Eh, if she hadn't done any of the blood magic, none of the people she alienated in the process would have died in the manner they did. One's actions aren't only limited to themselves.

This to vague a link. its like blaming a skimpy dressed woman that she caused a car accident because one of the male drivers was paying attention to her and not on the road.

You know, that's actually been used as a valid defense before.

Merrill knew the dangers of blood magic. She knew those dangers were immense and not easily contained. She also knew that the Dalish have a paternalistic need to look out for each other. Therefore, the consequences of her actions would not likely end with her, as the enormity of dealing with a demon would affect those around her and Dalish cultural mores would drive her kinsmen to protect her or kill her to the detriment of everyone.

Oh, and blood magic is bad, mmkay? Nothing good, except demon infestation comes from it. Those that practice blood magic should be imprisoned, tortured, and executed as soon as possible for the good of all living beings.

[DKJaigen]

Oh, and blood magic is bad, mmkay? Nothing good, except demon infestation comes from it. Those that practice blood magic should be imprisoned, tortured, and executed as soon as possible for the good of all living beings.

And the ones that will research blood magic properly will call themselves your master. For you have denied yourself power because your own ignorance. Your way of thinking will put the tevinter imperium right to the top of the food chain, well done. People like yourself should really look at the coldwar. Imagine that the americans did not research nuclear weapons because they where afraid of it.

[jlb524]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Merrill knew the dangers of blood magic. She knew those dangers were immense and not easily contained. She also knew that the Dalish have a paternalistic need to look out for each other. Therefore, the consequences of her actions would not likely end with her, as the enormity of dealing with a demon would affect those around her and Dalish cultural mores would drive her kinsmen to protect her or kill her to the detriment of everyone.

Merrill's clan wanted to abandon her to her fate.  They wanted to leave Sundermount and leave her in Kirkwall.

Merrill expected them to leave...they never did because of Marethari.

Protect her?  I don't think they ever wanted to protect her.

[Killjoy Cutter]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

DKJaigen wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I've seen a lot of people who want to blame Merrill for her clan's troubles and for Merethari dying, when all of that is actually about 100% Merethari's fault.

Eh, if she hadn't done any of the blood magic, none of the people she alienated in the process would have died in the manner they did. One's actions aren't only limited to themselves.

This to vague a link. its like blaming a skimpy dressed woman that she caused a car accident because one of the male drivers was paying attention to her and not on the road.

You know, that's actually been used as a valid defense before.

Juries and judges can be idiots, too.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Merrill knew the dangers of blood magic. She knew those dangers were immense and not easily contained. She also knew that the Dalish have a paternalistic need to look out for each other. Therefore, the consequences of her actions would not likely end with her, as the enormity of dealing with a demon would affect those around her and Dalish cultural mores would drive her kinsmen to protect her or kill her to the detriment of everyone.

Oh, and blood magic is bad, mmkay? Nothing good, except demon infestation comes from it. Those that practice blood magic should be imprisoned, tortured, and executed as soon as possible for the good of all living beings.

You're reverse-interpreting Dalish culture to fit your theory. 

And as for blood magic... yeah... you're buying into the dumbed-down hysteria from DA2.  What does Merrill ever do that actually puts anyone in danger?  What does a blood-mage Hawke do?  Or go back to DA:O, to a blood-mage Warden or party-member mage... of course, in DA:O, blood magic and demonology were two distinct things, which DA2 tries very hard to ignore.  

"Blood magic is bad because it's blood magic" is just rediculous circular reasoning. 

[Mark of the Dragon]

"Blood magic is bad because it's blood magic" is just rediculous circular reasoning. 
[/quote]

Yea I have to agree here. Blood magic is only viewed as evil because it is connected to demons. However that doesnt make a blood mage evil. A person is only evil based on the descisions they make. If they use this power to protect people then would you say they are evil? No! Lets get to the point people fear blood mages because they are powerful. Saying they are evil is an excuse to condemn the already hated mages even more. I think it has become pretty clear that a lot of people in Dragon Age fear what an individual might do with power. However the source of power doesnt make a person who they are its what they do with that power that defines them. Blood magic is no different.
As far as Merrill goes I like her character. She as an individual can apparently handle the blood magic and she uses it to "help" Hawke. She was only trying to help her clan. I mean it was quite obvious Merrill wasnt a threat to anyone and meant no harm. Marathari I feel bad for the old elf but she kinda brought it on herself. If she would have done her job as the keeper the clan would ahve left ans she would have lived. However she hung around and had to get invovled when everyone else wanted to leave.

Eitherway you cant just say something is evil because no power is just inherently evil nor is every creature. I mean we all thought the darkspawn were just evil savage creatures that couldnt talk and had a knack for killing and tainting everything around them. Then we met the Architect and his darkspawn. Not only did they talk but they were trying to help. But saying something is evil just because truly is ridiculous.

[LobselVith8]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

LobselVith8 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

I've seen a lot of people who want to blame Merrill for her clan's troubles and for Merethari dying, when all of that is actually about 100% Merethari's fault.

Eh, if she hadn't done any of the blood magic, none of the people she alienated in the process would have died in the manner they did. One's actions aren't only limited to themselves. 

You think it's Merrill's fault that other people try to commit cold-blooded murder?

Adults are responsible for their own actions; let's not pretend that the Dalish clan members who tried to murder Merrill and Hawke lacked agency over their own actions.

Indeed. 

At what point did Merrill's blood magic or just talking to the demon actual represent any kind of actual threat to the clan, other than through the fear and hate stirred up by Merethari? 

Before anyone answers that, think long and hard about it.  "Blood magic = automatic threat" is not a sufficient answer.

Especially when you consider that blood magic can be taught without demons (which is why the Orlesian Warden can ask the Baroness to teach him blood magic - when he thinks she's simply another mage) and is instrumental in creating Grey Wardens (who are the only means of permanently stopping Archdemons during the Blight), not to mention blood magic is used by some Grey Warden mages to give them the edge necessary to combat and defeat the darkspawn - the greatest threat to all sentient life on Thedas.

As far as Merrill's use of blood magic is concerned, she handled it appropriately - using it to cleanse the shard of the Eluvian of its corruption because she lacked the necessary amounts of lyrium to perform the task otherwise, and she never abused her power in all her years in Kirkwall.

[CrimsonZephyr]

LobselVith8 wrote...

As far as Merrill's use of blood magic is concerned, she handled it appropriately - using it to cleanse the shard of the Eluvian of its corruption because she lacked the necessary amounts of lyrium to perform the task otherwise, and she never abused her power in all her years in Kirkwall.

Ask yourself how the consequences of Merrill's actions would have been different if she had waited until she could obtain the necessary lyrium for her experiments, instead of resorting to blood magic. That's the answer to every counterargument you could ever muster. Would she have been ostracized? Would she have played into the hands of a pride demon? No.

If the mages want to be accepted, the first step is cracking down on blood mages, brutally, efficiently, and totally. It doesn't matter who or what they are, if they use blood magic, they die, immediately. Merrill should have been hanged, quartered and flayed by mages in a square in Hightown to demonstrate their devotion to the law.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 05 décembre 2011 - 09:29 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

Why?

What is it that makes blood magic inherently bad, any more than any other form of power, or weapon?   

"The church says it's bad" is not an answer.  "It's bad because it's bad" is not an answer.  "It's bad because the law says it's bad" is not an answer. 

Perhaps you are not familiar with the concept of a tautology?  The assumption that something is true is not proof that it's true. 

Who does Merrill ever hurt with her blood magic? 

The reactions of others to her blood magic don't count as things that Merrill causes.   (And no, "that gang member she lit on fire" doesn't count, for obvious reasons.)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

And does it hurt others to not use blood magic?

Frankly, disregarding the effects an act has on those around the person who commits the act is disingenuous. No action of sch magnitude is committed in a vacuum. It is also not a question of right and wrong, but allowed and disallowed. If the mages took a stronger stance on blood magic irrespective of Templar pressure, they would be more accepted. When blood mages of malevolent nature practice their art, bad things happen. Whn Merrill, who means no one harm, practices blood magic, bad things happen. No one has ever benefitted from blood magic. The Grey Wardens themselves abused it as well, using it to mind control noblemen during Sophia Dryden's rebellion.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

What is the actual magnitude of using blood magic, in and of itself? What makes blood magic different from any other magic, or a bow, or a sword, or a powerful personality?

All of the harm that befalls Merrill's clan is fallout from their own reactions, including Merethari's act of hubris.  Merrill never steals blood from anyone, implants a demon in anyone, mind-controls anyone, or anything of the sort.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

What is the actual magnitude of using blood magic, in and of itself? What makes blood magic different from any other magic, or a bow, or a sword, or a powerful personality?

The speed and subtlety by which it can inflict harm. Not to mention that it seems to have a high correlation (though I will grant that this is not necessarily a relationship of causality) between madmen and blood magic. Make of that what you will.

If it was due to fallout then Merrill should have never used blood magic. Public outcry matters, PR matters. Merrill has no sense of that.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 06 décembre 2011 - 08:37 .

[jlb524]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Ask yourself how the consequences of Merrill's actions would have been different if she had waited until she could obtain the necessary lyrium for her experiments, instead of resorting to blood magic.

Where is she getting all this lyrium from?

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
That's the answer to every counterargument you could ever muster. Would she have been ostracized? Would she have played into the hands of a pride demon? No.

If the magical lyrium fairy came one night and gifted Merrill a ton of lyrium, she still would have been ostracized because Marethari didn't want her working on the mirror first and foremost...the blood magic thing was a secondary concern.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
If the mages want to be accepted, the first step is cracking down on blood mages, brutally, efficiently, and totally. It doesn't matter who or what they are, if they use blood magic, they die, immediately. Merrill should have been hanged, quartered and flayed by mages in a square in Hightown to demonstrate their devotion to the law.

Mages won't be anymore accepted if blood magic disappeared. 

Let's see...fireballing a village to death is okay if you use the Fade to power the spell instead of your own blood, amrite?

Modifié par jlb524, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:11 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

jlb524 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Ask yourself how the consequences of Merrill's actions would have been different if she had waited until she could obtain the necessary lyrium for her experiments, instead of resorting to blood magic.

Where is she getting all this lyrium from?

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
That's the answer to every counterargument you could ever muster. Would she have been ostracized? Would she have played into the hands of a pride demon? No.

If the magical lyrium fairy came one night and gifted Merrill a ton of lyrium, she still would have been ostracized because Marethari didn't want her working on the mirror first and foremost...the blood magic thing was a secondary concern.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
If the mages want to be accepted, the first step is cracking down on blood mages, brutally, efficiently, and totally. It doesn't matter who or what they are, if they use blood magic, they die, immediately. Merrill should have been hanged, quartered and flayed by mages in a square in Hightown to demonstrate their devotion to the law.

Mages won't be anymore accepted if blood magic disappeared. 

Let's see...fireballing a village to death is okay if you use the Fade to power the spell instead of your own blood, amrite?

If she doesn't get the lyrium, she doesn't work on the mirror. And if the elves disapprove, she doesn't work on it. The game goes out of its way to prove that the mob knows best and that fears are always justified. Those that go against the grain would serve their people best by being executed.

And the elimination of blood magic would certainly go a long way in improving opinions. Another is in the military - draft every single mage - men, women, and children - into armies. If someone refuses, kill them. People respect soldiers. People would respect mages who are soldiers. Also, institute king-worship. Declare local kings and emperors to be living gods and that all mages worship them as such.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 06 décembre 2011 - 10:19 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

jlb524 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Ask yourself how the consequences of Merrill's actions would have been different if she had waited until she could obtain the necessary lyrium for her experiments, instead of resorting to blood magic.

Where is she getting all this lyrium from?

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
That's the answer to every counterargument you could ever muster. Would she have been ostracized? Would she have played into the hands of a pride demon? No.

If the magical lyrium fairy came one night and gifted Merrill a ton of lyrium, she still would have been ostracized because Marethari didn't want her working on the mirror first and foremost...the blood magic thing was a secondary concern.

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
If the mages want to be accepted, the first step is cracking down on blood mages, brutally, efficiently, and totally. It doesn't matter who or what they are, if they use blood magic, they die, immediately. Merrill should have been hanged, quartered and flayed by mages in a square in Hightown to demonstrate their devotion to the law.

Mages won't be anymore accepted if blood magic disappeared. 

Let's see...fireballing a village to death is okay if you use the Fade to power the spell instead of your own blood, amrite?

Indeed, that seems to be the issue -- "blood magic is bad because it's bad" is all we've seen so far. 

And yeah, if Merrill had a wagon full of lyrium to work with, Merethari would have warned the clan that working with so much lyrium made Merrill dangerous -- it was always about their disagreement over the mirror and Merethari's own pride.

[jlb524]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
If she doesn't get the lyrium, she doesn't work on the mirror.

Ah..weren't you saying she should have waited to get lyrium?  Are you arguing that the mirror is bad or blood magic or both?

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Those that go against the grain would serve their people best by being executed.

You really believe that?

Well...be careful not to speed in your car for you will be executed!

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
And the elimination of blood magic would certainly go a long way in improving opinions. Another is in the military - draft every single mage - men, women, and children - into armies. If someone refuses, kill them. People respect soldiers. People would respect mages who are soldiers. Also, institute king-worship. Declare local kings and emperors to be living gods and that all mages worship them as such.

Not sure if serious... 

[Killjoy Cutter]

Sounds like CrimsonZephyr is suggesting making all mages into slaves of the state, on pain of death at any hint of refusal. So it's OK for non-mages to enslave mages, but not OK for mages to enslave non-mages, CZ?

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

Sounds like CrimsonZephyr is suggesting making all mages into slaves of the state, on pain of death at any hint of refusal. So it's OK for non-mages to enslave mages, but not OK for mages to enslave non-mages, CZ?

Eh, Thedas is a world where fascism is always good and freedom is always bad. It's like the Star Wars galaxy as written by Benito Mussolini. Ergo, whoever comes up with the most horrifically brutal plan will always be right, and have the greatest chance of success.

[jlb524]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Eh, Thedas is a world where fascism is always good and freedom is always bad. It's like the Star Wars galaxy as written by Benito Mussolini. Ergo, whoever comes up with the most horrifically brutal plan will always be right, and have the greatest chance of success.

Then you should love the blood mages who wish to brutally subjugate non-mages.

[CrimsonZephyr]

jlb524 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Eh, Thedas is a world where fascism is always good and freedom is always bad. It's like the Star Wars galaxy as written by Benito Mussolini. Ergo, whoever comes up with the most horrifically brutal plan will always be right, and have the greatest chance of success.

Then you should love the blood mages who wish to brutally subjugate non-mages.

No, I think that mages should be separate. They brutalize each other, without involving the rest of Thedas. Brainwashing, flaying, whipping, death by exposure, gladiatorial fights, sacrifices, disappearances, secret prisons, the indoctrination of children, poisonings, and all manner of assassination should be used by the mage elites to keep the mage rabble in line. They should live lives of constant fear. The more they fear each other, the better.

Oh, and since the general populace hates elves, sponsoring elf mage executions for no reason other than to accrue public approval should be a top priority. As should the extermination of the entire Kossith race. Both are actions deemed to be prudent and honorable by the Chantry, therefore the mages should see to it that they are done, for the good PR they will provide.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 07 décembre 2011 - 12:25 .

[jlb524]

Why should the Chantry rule though?

[CrimsonZephyr]

jlb524 wrote...

Why should the Chantry rule though?

Because the people approve of the Chantry. Public approval is everything. If the public wanted the mages to wipe out an alienage, the mages should do it.

[jlb524]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Why should the Chantry rule though?

Because the people approve of the Chantry. Public approval is everything. If the public wanted the mages to wipe out an alienage, the mages should do it.

Public approval is subject to change.

'Chantry' could easily be replaced with 'mages'.

[CrimsonZephyr]

jlb524 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Why should the Chantry rule though?

Because the people approve of the Chantry. Public approval is everything. If the public wanted the mages to wipe out an alienage, the mages should do it.

Public approval is subject to change.

'Chantry' could easily be replaced with 'mages'.

Eh, the more things change, the more things stay the same. And it likely will never change. Mages will just need to be monsters to those that the public hates. They should rejoice in their hatred, bloodshed, and bigotry. They should also use the darkspawn taint to kill off entire populations of Chasind, Avvar, and Alamarri, as well as any other non-Chantry barbarians, including the Dalish, because the public follows Andrastianism. Therefore, Andrastianism is good, everything else is bad, and the means you take to remove the bad will always be approved of by the public.

Blood mages should be killed because the public disapproves of them. The public should be encouraged to lynch them, with monetary and property rewards. Participation in such bloodlust will make the stupid populace more fond of mages.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 07 décembre 2011 - 01:00 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

You're either trolling, or have a very sick worldview.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

You're either trolling, or have a very sick worldview.

You disagree?