343 réponses à ce sujet

[jlb524]

syllogi wrote...
The reason why blood magic is feared and hated is because (a) it attracts demons and many of those who practice blood magic end up possessed/an abomination,

The use of blood magic itself doesn't attract demons.  Use of 'normal' magic does as the mage must tap into the Fade in order to power spells.  Using blood to power spells is considered 'purer' because it doesn't rely on the Fade at all.

Blood mages can use blood magic to tear the veil and summon demons because it's more powerful.   

syllogi wrote...
( it is primarily used to physically harm and control others, while other types of magic do not necessarily do that,

Blood magic doesn't necessarily harm others either and you could say normal magic is primarily used as a weapon to harm others.

[syllogi]

jlb524 wrote...

syllogi wrote...
The reason why blood magic is feared and hated is because (a) it attracts demons and many of those who practice blood magic end up possessed/an abomination,

The use of blood magic itself doesn't attract demons.  Use of 'normal' magic does as the mage must tap into the Fade in order to power spells.  Using blood to power spells is considered 'purer' because it doesn't rely on the Fade at all.

Blood mages can use blood magic to tear the veil and summon demons because it's more powerful.  

Yeah, I worded that badly.  You have to make a deal with a demon, you can summon demons, and you can turn into an abomination, it may not "attract" demons, but it is more closely related to demons than the Chantry is comfortable with.
 

jlb524 wrote...

syllogi wrote...
( it is primarily used to physically harm and control others, while other types of magic do not necessarily do that,

Blood magic doesn't necessarily harm others either and you could say normal magic is primarily used as a weapon to harm others.

You harm yourself, or you harm someone else when you use blood magic.  Even if it's not always fatal, or if the blood donor is willing, you are drawing power from that harm.  Other forms of magic can be protective, or heal, or could be put to practical uses, such as using primal magic for growing/cooking/preserving food.  It's a shame that those other uses aren't being put into practice because of the Chantry and fear of demons.

I'm not saying there isn't a use for blood magic, but there are good reasons to fear it.

Modifié par syllogi, 07 décembre 2011 - 05:55 .

[SinnSly]

jlb524 wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...
DA:O goes a little schitzy on it... it's an unlockable, not something that actually has to be learned every time.  But it's very likety that Jowan learned it from a source other than a demon, he makes it clear he wants nothing to do with demons. 

Ah, I see what you mean.  But where does Blood Mage Hawke learn it from?

SinnSly wrote...

Magic is magic, I always choose to be a
blood mage, it's magic none the less, I mean condone thsoe who use magic
badly not just cause it's a type of magic right?

The Chantry says it's bad so it's bad, m'kay.

The Chantry can stuff it...

[FieryDove]

I'm not awake enough yet so pardon me if I ramble...

Isn't BM the only magic templars can't defend well against? I recall this being said in-game...somewhere.

If this is true then perhaps the chantry promoted this *BM is all evil* along with magic is a curse nonsense. I know you can learn it from demons, you can also learn it from books. So the whole you must be da ebil doesn't wash.

Now someone using BM might be more inclined to get possessed but we don't know this is a fact.
Becoming possessed is all about a person's willpower I believe and not the type of magic they wield.

Now from what I see Merrill is willing to do anything, even ruin her own life to *save* her clan/people. Sooner or later using BM to control/harm others might happen with such conviction if it is for the *good* of her people. Again we don't know but it is a possibility.

Someone said Anders= train wreck I see that for Merrill too as a possibility.

[jlb524]

syllogi wrote...
You harm yourself, or you harm someone else when you use blood magic.  Even if it's not always fatal, or if the blood donor is willing, you are drawing power from that harm.  Other forms of magic can be protective, or heal, or could be put to practical uses, such as using primal magic for growing/cooking/preserving food.  It's a shame that those other uses aren't being put into practice because of the Chantry and fear of demons.

I don't see why blood magic can't be used for those purposes as well.

Blood magic is less a form of magic and more of a way that spells are powered...using blood instead of lyrium/mana.

By using blood to power spells, a mage gets more "bang for their buck" so to speak and there are other types of spells open to them (such as mind control or tearing through the veil to summon demons or send someone into the Fade) that require powerful magic.

[jlb524]

FieryDove wrote...
Isn't BM the only magic templars can't defend well against? I recall this being said in-game...somewhere.

I'm not sure.  I don't remember this at least.

FieryDove wrote...
Now someone using BM might be more inclined to get possessed but we don't know this is a fact.
Becoming possessed is all about a person's willpower I believe and not the type of magic they wield.

BM are at a risk for possession if they decide to tear the veil to summon demons into the world (they put others at risk of possession as well).  If they are just using blood to cast chain lightning, than there would be no risk.

A mage that uses the Fade to power spells is at risk of demonic possession any time they tap into the Fade...so pretty much any time they use magic.

So, Merrill is actually less at risk from demonic possession than Bethany is...as far as using magic day to day goes.

FieryDove wrote...
Now from what I see Merrill is willing to do anything, even ruin her own life to *save* her clan/people. Sooner or later using BM to control/harm others might happen with such conviction if it is for the *good* of her people. Again we don't know but it is a possibility.

Anything's possible...Merrill could give up magic entirely and join a hippie commune and smoke weed everyday.

Modifié par jlb524, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:06 .

[TEWR]

FieryDove, you're correct.

Templar abilities are designed to disrupt the connection between the mage and the Fade and keep them from using mana.

Blood magic has no ties to the Fade and as such the Templars can't do anything to those abilities drawn from blood.

Blood magic puts a mage on a more even playing field with a Templar, just like being an Arcane Warrior would.

[FieryDove]

jlb524 wrote...

BM are at a risk for possession if they decide to tear the veil to summon demons into the world (they put others at risk of possession as well).  If they are just using blood to cast chain lightning, than there would be no risk.

You don't even have to know BM to summon demons. A certain character in a certain dlc proved that. Yes?

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

FieryDove, you're correct.

Thank you. I had thought it was something along those lines. We need more infos, maybe in DA3 surrounding BM, demons, spirits, the whole ball of wax. And what the black city is!

[TEWR]

You don't even have to know BM to summon demons. A certain character in a certain dlc proved that. Yes?

Well, Justice is a denizen of the Fade originally and the arcane is eternal there. I wouldn't say Anders did it. Justice did.

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You don't even have to know BM to summon demons. A certain character in a certain dlc proved that. Yes?

Well, Justice is a denizen of the Fade originally and the arcane is eternal there. I wouldn't say Anders did it. Justice did.

Which makes no sense...he depises demons above all else. He raged about them enough in the expansion.

[jlb524]

FieryDove wrote...
You don't even have to know BM to summon demons. A certain character in a certain dlc proved that. Yes?

Right...you just need magic powerful enough to tear through the veil.  We've seen it done with blood magic, using loads of lyrium (we haven't seen this used yet to summon demons but we have seen it used to send the Warden/Morrigan/etc. through the veil into the Fade in order to fight Conner's demon), and demons themselves have done it (or Fade spirits, in Anders's case).

It's just so easy to do it with blood magic.  Therefore, while I don't think any one should be allowed to use blood magic willy nilly it also shouldn't be dismissed as 'evil' and crushed because it can be useful in the proper hands.

Modifié par jlb524, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:42 .

[TEWR]

FieryDove wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

You don't even have to know BM to summon demons. A certain character in a certain dlc proved that. Yes?

Well, Justice is a denizen of the Fade originally and the arcane is eternal there. I wouldn't say Anders did it. Justice did.

Which makes no sense...he depises demons above all else. He raged about them enough in the expansion.

I like to think of it this way: Justice knew Anders was being influenced by Corypheus because of the taint within his body, and so he summoned demons to attack the party so that they would be forced to attack both the demons and Anders/Justice. Thus Anders would be back to normal and not so easily influenced by Corypheus.

Frankly, I was disappointed at the lack of Justice going berserk at the notion of helping Corypheus. He was deadset on being against helping the Architect and yet he can't even pop in to give a "No" on helping this old coot? That made me like Legacy a bit less.

Begs the question though why Carver/Bethany don't attack Hawke and company in that scenario when they're Wardens.

[jlb524]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Begs the question though why Carver/Bethany don't attack Hawke and company in that scenario when they're Wardens.

Why would they?

[FieryDove]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

I like to think of it this way: Justice knew Anders was being influenced by Corypheus because of the taint within his body, and so he summoned demons to attack the party so that they would be forced to attack both the demons and Anders/Justice. Thus Anders would be back to normal and not so easily influenced by Corypheus.

Frankly, I was disappointed at the lack of Justice going berserk at the notion of helping Corypheus. He was deadset on being against helping the Architect and yet he can't even pop in to give a "No" on helping this old coot? That made me like Legacy a bit less.

I know this is just wishful thinking but this is a time where I would have loved for Justice's plan (If that was his plan) to fail. Hawke and Co. dies from attack. Anders wakes up, deals with demons then...If Hawke was a Li or just a best friend it would have been interesting to see what he would think/say next. I didn't want to fight Anders as a BF or Li, I fought the demons tho. If I had just stood there and let janders kill me...would have been interesting I'm sure...well until credits roll/game over you lose screen I guess. lol

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Begs the question though why Carver/Bethany don't attack Hawke and company in that scenario when they're Wardens.

Plot armor at its finest.

Modifié par FieryDove, 07 décembre 2011 - 07:58 .

[Killjoy Cutter]

There's a lot to indicate that blood magic need not be learned from a demon. It's just that DA2 tried really hard to link blood magic and demons, especially via the attitudes and reactions of NPCs.

Hawke can be a blood mage without ever speaking to a single demon.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There's a lot to indicate that blood magic need not be learned from a demon. It's just that DA2 tried really hard to link blood magic and demons, especially via the attitudes and reactions of NPCs.

Hawke can be a blood mage without ever speaking to a single demon.

So, if blood magic isn't inherently evil, would you have it decriminalized? If so, how would you regulate it without trampling on the other, remaining freedoms that mages have? How would you police it, or even control it? Is it even a desirable thing? Outside of the joining and phylacteries, which seem to be blood magic in a loose sense (has blood in it, but its a potion rather than weaponized blood gushing from veins), I have yet to see an unambiguously constructive application.

[jlb524]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Outside of the joining and phylacteries, which seem to be blood magic in a loose sense (has blood in it, but its a potion rather than weaponized blood gushing from veins), I have yet to see an unambiguously constructive application.

Merrill used it to remove the blight taint from the mirror.

Blood magic was also used to bind Corypheus.

[Abispa]

Well, Merrill used blood magic to "cleanse" the mirror at the guidance of a Pride Demon whose motives may have been less than wholesome.

The Wardens have mentioned several times that they have resorted to blood magic to achieve their ends, but the mage at the Warden's Keep DLC did say that the taint gives the Wardens' blood magic some interesting properties (like those potions that give you extra two points level ups).

[CrimsonZephyr]

jlb524 wrote...

CrimsonZephyr wrote...
Outside of the joining and phylacteries, which seem to be blood magic in a loose sense (has blood in it, but its a potion rather than weaponized blood gushing from veins), I have yet to see an unambiguously constructive application.

Merrill used it to remove the blight taint from the mirror.

Blood magic was also used to bind Corypheus.

Which could have been done using lyrium. Yes I know she didn't have any on her, but alternatives existed. Not to mention there's not much practical value in the mirror itself. "For Science" isn't a valid excuse, because that argument never goes well in Dragon Age.

And the Grey Wardens chose to keep something like Corypheus locked up instead of killing it? Great job, that one.

Plus, any leader should be deeply suspicious of Grey Wardens. Any organization that allows use of blood magic will one day abuse it. Mind control is too great a power.

Modifié par CrimsonZephyr, 07 décembre 2011 - 09:58 .

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Begs the question though why Carver/Bethany don't attack Hawke and company in that scenario when they're Wardens.

Why would they?

Corypheus is able to influence and control the minds of anything that bears the taint. Wardens and Darkspawn bear the taint.

[Killjoy Cutter]

A blood-mage Warden or Hawke can use blood magic to accomplish many good deeds, without mind controlling anyone or ever summoning a demon. Case closed.

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

A blood-mage Warden or Hawke can use blood magic to accomplish many good deeds, without mind controlling anyone or ever summoning a demon. Case closed.

A blood mage Warden and a blood mage Hawke never have a demon trying to invade their minds on account of that blood magic, while most other blood mages are either mind-controllers or demon summoners. This includes Merrill in the latter category. Don't use gameplay-and-story segregation, especially in the former who faces a Harrowing he/she is required by plot to pass, as your argument.

The case isn't closed. It hasn't even gotten past opening arguments.

[Killjoy Cutter]

There's no such thing as gameplay vs story segregation, just sloppy design.  If it's in the game, it's the reality of the game.

And in DA:O and DA2, using blood magic is evidently not as dangerous as NPCs tell us.   

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 08 décembre 2011 - 01:34 .

[CrimsonZephyr]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

There's no such thing as gameplay vs story segregation, just sloppy design.  If it's in the game, it's the reality of the game.

And in DA:O and DA2, using blood magic is evidently not as dangerous as NPCs tell us.   

Read up and be enlightened: http://tvtropes.org/...torySegregation

[thats1evildude]

CrimsonZephyr wrote...

And the Grey Wardens chose to keep something like Corypheus locked up instead of killing it? Great job, that one.

To be fair, it's possible that they locked him up because they realized at some point that he couldn't die.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 08 décembre 2011 - 01:57 .