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[Fixers0]

Not to disrupt a discussion but Cerberus has been post-Mass Effect 1 Bioware's main Mary sue, with exception of, ME Revelation, and the mini-comics Inquistion and Convinction all Books and Comics have Cerberus playing a prominent role.

[didymos1120]

Once again, Fixers, you have a real problem with what terms actually mean. Here's a tip: "Mary Sue" does not equal "prominent role".

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Where did Kelly get Tali's suit from?

She's "into" that, you know?


Anyway, regarding the "green" Shepard thing. The concept is this: Shepard is not a great hero until you, the player, step into his boots and make him one.

So there is no Torfan, Akuze, or Elysium backstory. Maybe those events all happened, but Shepard wasn't there.

I'm not familiar with military ranks, but whatever is below "Commander" in the Alliance navy probably doesn't have the right sound to it. So, for example, Leiutenant Shepard, just doesn't sound right.

To fix that, Jenkins is not a corporal, he is the Commander. (he, Shepard, and Alenko are all present for the briefing with Anderson and Nihlus) A respected veteran, he is gunned down early in the mission when the geth are revealed and Shepard is forced to take command. His excellent performance on the mission (saving the colony despite the odds) earns him the promotion to the Commander when he's onboard the Normandy.

(this also might mean Kaidan as a different rank at the start)

I like the Jenkins reversal. If anything, Jenkins could have been the Spectre candidate.

I agree that Alenko wouldn't be suitable as 'the experienced lieutentant' being put under green!Shepard.

If Alenko was a Warrant Officer, however, that could solve things. Warrant Officers are between NCO's and regular officers, specializing in certain roles and responsibilities. As a Sentinal, Alenko serving as a Biotic-Warrant Officer would allow him to be 'experienced', but still subordinate.

So green!Shepard gets an early promotion from Lieutenant to Captain/Spectre, Warrant Officer Alenko is the experienced hand to provide help/supervision. And then Ashley provides the senior NCO role.

Shepard is skilled/trained (still N7) but inexperienced. Alenko and Williams provide the experience to support Shepard, who is elevated by circumstance.

[Fixers0]

didymos1120 wrote...

Once again, Fixers, you have a real problem with what terms actually mean. Here's a tip: "Mary Sue" does not equal "prominent role".

I'm Very well aware that they aren't the same, but let me ask: what's your definition of a Mary sue?

Modifié par Fixers0, 09 novembre 2011 - 05:16 .

[Il Divo]

Fixers0 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Once again, Fixers, you have a real problem with what terms actually mean. Here's a tip: "Mary Sue" does not equal "prominent role".

I'm Very well aware that they aren't the same, but let me ask: what's your definition of a Mary sue?

Mary Sues are characters. Cerberus is an organization, which would contain characters. Cerberus itself can't be a Mary Sue, though ultimately this is all semantics.

Modifié par Il Divo, 09 novembre 2011 - 05:19 .

[Fixers0]

Il Divo wrote...

Fixers0 wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...

Once again, Fixers, you have a real problem with what terms actually mean. Here's a tip: "Mary Sue" does not equal "prominent role".

I'm Very well aware that they aren't the same, but let me ask: what's your definition of a Mary sue?

Mary Sues are characters. Cerberus is an organization, which would contain characters. Cerberus itself can't be a Mary Sue, though ultimately this is all semantics.

Well That's a difference, i was more aiming at their role in the Mass Effect universe, i mean the Asari are as species and not person, but you can say that their role's are similar.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Shepard is skilled/trained (still N7) but inexperienced. Alenko and Williams provide the experience to support Shepard, who is elevated by circumstance.

Yes, exactly. Just to reaffirm: Shepard isn't a nobody. He was probably still top of his class at the Alliance Academy or whatever they have. The Alliance expects he will do great things, but he hasn't done them yet. His reputaiton will be something the player cultivates throughout the course of ME1.

That's good. And yes, it's an Academy on the Aliance capital, where Anderson also graduated.

Now, Anderson is sympathetic/supportive, but anything else? Maybe Anderson was a guest lecturer while Shepard was in training?

If we wanted, Shepard could be a bit in awe/overshadowed by Anderson. Paragon-Shep is... not intimidated or submissive, but deferntial? Renegade-Shep is competitive, wanting to surpass Anderson.

Regarding Cerberus though, I'm having a few second thoughts. When I imagine this I get ahead of myself and think of ME2. When I think of that I envision Shepard not being killed at the start. Thus there is no resurrection plot and no building of the SR2 (or is there...?). This means that we aren't seeing Cerberus colors or uniforms everywhere. In that case, why have the uniforms and colors at all? They never made sense anyway (though they did look good and give Cerberus a distinct identity).

If we established something like a stasis field/pod (you know, like the power), then Shepard being 'locked' in a Stasis field from the Normandy med bay provides a similar beginning.

Shepard doesn't get ejected into space, but has to seal him/herself in a stasis pod in the medbay. Normandy is destroyed, and the pod is lost in space, damaged to a point that it can't be turned off without risking Shepard.

'Lazarus' is Cerberus's less-than-astronomical attempt to safely deactivate the field without killing Shepard.


The Normandy cell could be introduced as a military cell to justify a uniform, but avoid the icon treatment.

What do you think? Uniforms/colors/emblem or no? My dilemma is this: without the recognizable uniforms how will the player/Shepard later make the connection that the folks on Feros and Noveria were Cerberus?

I think military!Cerberus can justify having uniforms and emblems as a distinctive part. Not on the outside, but for unit cohesion of the military wing. The Normandy is an example of the military wing.

The rest of Cerberus, the science and intelligence/political wings, avoid the symbols. You only find that out by confessions and implicating evidence/hacked terminals.

[Schneidend]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Oh, I wish I had my old list saved...

The asari are the best biotics...

The asari are the best diplomats...

The asari are the longest lived...

The asari are the most populous...

The asari are the most respected...

The asari are the most wise...

The asari are the most peaceful...

The asari are the best commandoes...

The asari were the first in space...

The asari were the first to find the Citadel...


I think I might be forgetting a few.

The asari are also the slowest to take decisive action.

The salarians and turians, IIRC, were spacefaring around the same time. They just hadn't discovered the Citadel. Galaxy's a big place.

Asari aren't the best commandoes, they just have that reputation because they've been around so long and because a commando devotes her life to being a commando. That impression is likely also propaganda that the asari have subtly spread throughout centuries. Others are much more willing to negotiate with the threat of supposedly unstoppable commandoes lingering in the back of their minds, and the asari don't even have to say anything to instill that fear.

Asari might be the "most peaceful," but they are also implied to be as ruthless and manipulative as they need to be to maintain that image. The dark side to the asari is subtly implied throughout the games, just as the asari themselves have vaguely implied it for over a thousand years of the tri-species Council. Nassana Dantius is hardly an atypical asari.

Half of your list are simply natural results of being the longest lived.

[DarthCaine]

I'd delete the cliche generic Cthulhu monsters.
The Mass Effect universe has far more potential than "ARGHH EVIL MACHINES ARE COMING TO KILL US! WE NEED A HERO TO SAVE THE GALAXY!"

Modifié par DarthCaine, 09 novembre 2011 - 06:00 .

[Sgt Stryker]

Other than the fact that a Mary Sue is by definition a character, not an organization, how can Cerberus be a Mary Sue when their number of failed projects exceeds their successful projects?

[Sgt Stryker]

OK, maybe I'm exaggerating (I don't keep up with the comics or novels, so I don't know what they've been up to there), but the fact that Cerberus even has failures (read: flaws) effectively keeps them out of Mary Sue territory.

[Dean_the_Young]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Now, Anderson is sympathetic/supportive, but anything else? Maybe Anderson was a guest lecturer while Shepard was in training?

Could be, but is it necessary to explain his characterization? Maybe he's just a good leader and he sees after Eden Prime and the exposing of Saren that Shepard is up to the task.

I think it is. Or rather, I don't see how keeping Anderson's established history (a war hero in his own right, former Spectre candidate, etc.) would detract from the story, while the 'old-school hero mentor' angle would serve as a contrast/foil to Shepard's own inexperience.

Sort of 'I once sat in the same room as a war hero, and now I work with him.'

Well I was more imagining that the Normandy isn't shot down at all. Instead the game opens with Shepard being sent to Freedom's Progress by the Council. While there, instead of meeting Tali, he meets Miranda and Jacob and their squad. He instantly recognizes whom they represent and a standoff occurs. One way or the other they agree to work together since they are under mutual threat from hostiles present in the colony. (geth/husks maybe)

Anyway, getting to the point. The SR1 stays but is in need of upgrades for the Omega-4 Relay (makes more sense that an older ship needs upgrades and not a brand new one). Also, I imagined a subplot where Shepard tries to uncover who on the Normandy is a Cerberus agent.

Seeking clarification: is Shepard no longer working with Cerberus in ME2?

I could sort-of-see a ME2 in which Alliance!Shepard strikes a deal with Cerberus. Jacob and Miranda are envoys from the Illusive Man to support Shepard: Jacob is 'transfered' from within the Alliance, while Miranda is just Special Operative Lawson. (Maybe she's in charge of installing EDI?)


The real question is EDI and the rest of the crew. Is TIM arranging the new support team to help Shepard?

I had been thinking that maybe the SR1 is shot down, just not at the begining. Perhaps a false end to the game. In the peak before the climax mabye. The ship being shotdown is the replacement for the crew abduction scene and at the end of it all everything seems lost.

Or it could even be shot down at the end when the assault on the Collector base is made. Then when it all seems hopeless the SR2 flies in to rescue Shepard and co from the station. However if the base is blown up that doesn't make much sense. It also might be too abrupt...

"Here's a new ship... but now the game is over."

I don't think that really works. EDI is pretty involved throughout the game, and introducing the new Normandy at that point doesn't quite work. Also makes the ME3 transition awkward.

It's a nice idea, but I still dont think it really works. The military units needing cohesion makes sense, but they can do that by all wearing the same armor brand/type without needing something that can be traced back to Cerberus the galaxy over. They could all wear Rosenkov, or Armax, or anything. (the Cerberus security officer guarding Legion in ME2 is wearing an armor from ME1)


So I think that either Cerberus should have the uniforms for all their members or not have them at all.

Wearing standardized civilian clothes does give uniformity, but it also drops the ethos and esprite de corps. These are more important for military groups (where a distinct identity has many assets) than for the rest.

I had kind of wanted for my re-imagining of them to preserve the ME1 sense that they were secretive and clandestine. They would much rather avoid a fight with anyone than actually get bloody. If a fire-fight breaks out  or anyone recognizes them then things have gone drastically wrong. But... eh...I just don't know.

It can depend on context. When it's important not to be identified even afterwards, go without the emblems. But when you're making a statement and want to be seen, being identified afterwards is part of the point.

If we carry on with the 'Cerberus just recently went 'rogue'' line from Kohaku, then adopting a distinct identity can be nodded to as part of TIM's change in direction. TIM is turning Cerberus into a 'public' force in its own right: not super-visible, but the beginning of a brand.

[CptData]

Lots of nice posts here so far, thank you guys.

I just thought of the two beginnings of reboot!ME2. As I showed in my chart ME2 will start with two different beginnings: in both the Collector's attack will happen, in both the Normandy gets destroyed. But while in one beginning Shepard gets killed while saving Joker, it's Joker who saves the Normandy in the other beginning. Shepard survives but is badly injured and needs some time to fully recover. The Normandy itself is damaged beyond repairs.

What do we have now? One beginning is the "Cerberus arc", the other is the "Alliance arc". I thought it would be a nice idea to have two different starting points and also some different storylines to give players an opportunity to fully go "paragon" (Alliance) or "renegade" (Cerberus) if wanted. There should be also a point where you can change your career - either from Alliance to Cerberus or vice versa - at least I have something like that in my mind.

In case of Cerberus start: you can switch sides @ Horizon mission, following the VS to Citadel. Although that is not an easy task it is possible to become loyal to Alliance once more. However, you won't get reinstated as commander.
Also it should be possible to go for a Cerberus career by leaving the Alliance - either the official way (Shepard resigns), for a special undercover job (Shepard infiltrates Cerberus) or becoming a full fledged renegade ... whatever you want. I'd like to see such options. 

At least I wished I could go back to the Alliance. My Shepard is thankful TIM brought him back, but why didn't he go for the Alliance as soon as possible? There were plenty opportunities to collect data and send them to the Alliance, proving you're still loyal to them. But noo ...

*sigh*

Whatever. I just wished I could go for Alliance in ME2. I bet there also enough ppl wanting even more renegade actions for a "perfect" career in Cerberus organization.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Like at first he just offers suggestions and leads for Shepard, but stays out of the decision making process. Over time he engineers the situation so he has more control up to the point where (Collector ship) he is actually using Shepard entirely as his own (apparently expendable) asset. Finally, he requests the Collector base and Shepard has to make the ultimate decision whether to trust him with such volatile technology or destroy it.[/quote]This makes it all the better. Combine it with the unclear implication that Cerberus might not be so rogue after all, and you get some interesting hanging chades to be unclear about.



[quote]
EDI is a plot point I hadn't considered yet but that should be significant. It makes sense that if Cerberus made her they would want to get her installed. However this would be a huge issue for Shepard and even his Council bosses. Perhaps there would be a degree of choice regarding this for the player. Only the choice would only go so far. It would be sort of like Grunt maybe. EDI is brought on board but Shepard will decide, up to a point, when it activate her?[/quote]'Optional' really doesn't work.

What if, as a compromise solution, the limiters on EDI are Alliance-made? Cerberus offers up a super-AI to replace the Normandy AI: obviously with potential Cerberus hidden protocols, but also without incriminating evidence as towards Cerberus. To make it somewhat acceptable, the Alliance slaps on the cyber-restraints.

The whole thing is effectively a tech-trade as well, with Cerberus sharing AI technology with the Alliance in exchange for confirming what they already know/suspect about the Normandy itself. A case of 'I'll share my tech if you show yours.'

If we avoid the Collector kidnapping, choosing to 'unchackle' EDI could be a suicide-mission choice.

[quote]
Another thing I want to point out: it should be kept ambiguous whether or not Cerberus is turly rogue or actually still part of the Alliance at the highest level. It should also stay that way, never being made certain either way.

I just love Zulu's theory on that and wish it were canon.[/quote]I certainly agree with it... especially since I helped Zulu push it.


[quote]
I'm thinking yes, but the team will be smaller. Liara, Garrus, and Tali are gone. The VS (and maybe Wrex...?) is still present in the squad. Then we have Miranda and Jacob. So perhaps only  two or three more people wind up joining, all of them aliens. [/quote]The Wrex unifying Tuchanka is a good thing to keep, so I'd say let Wrex leave as well.

Is Liara going to go for revenge on the Shadow Broker in some alternate version? Or is she trying to use her archeology to seal the deal on the Reapers?


More to the point, might we jetisson the whole 'we don't believe you' plot? The war can still be justified as a tough run even if ME2 is all 'we are mobilizing for the Reapers, if justying it against the Geth.'

[quote]
I'm thinking Mordin is one, and the other two are more up in the air. [/quote]Hell, if we acknowledge the Reapers (or even if we don't), I'd recommend a Batarian ally. A sort of olive branch from within the Hegemony, seeking alliance against the Reapers (who they believe in).

Then we have yet another 'Shepard gets another highly controversial ally to expand the universe.'

Of the canon characters, Jack is an important foil for Cerberus, and covers the super-biotic that might otherwise be missing (if we care to keep one). On the other hand, the Jack/Samara unified character...?

Grunt and Samara are the token Krogan/Asari. Samara at least gives a new view of Asari.

But Thane might be the most applicable, especially if we twist him to being a still-active Hanar assassin. With the Hanar having their own niche-colonies in the Terminus, Hanar could be referenced as a big ally in helping Human refugees and such.



[quote]It depends strongly on whether this is still about Collectors or not. (IE: the "Collector" ship could be a geth ship that is used to collect humans) [/quote]Establishing the heretics as a continued presence could make a good focus. Continuing the war with the Geth... but now the Geth have changed tactics, and are responsible for abducting Human colonies. The Alliance and Council are pre-occupied with the main war, and blame it on slavers.

The initial belief is that it's all the Geth fault, but the Geth are just the strong-men for the Collectors. The Collectors themselves aren't a military force: even their 'cruiser' could be unarmed, and they rely on the Geth for fighting.

[quote]
Well, you remember EDI saying members of one cell couldn't recognize members of another? I just don't like realism being cast aside too much. A black ops (or former) goup should want to stay mostly anonymous. They are outlaws after all, especially after being implicated as one of Saren's allies. (they should be among the most wanted people in the galaxy, dead or alive)[/quote]There's always a difference between recognizing if you cross in the streets, and then recognizing when the bullets are flying. A combat uniform makes sense, even if there is only an internal-cell uniform within a cell.

[quote]
I'd say, have consistency with each Cerberus group you encounter, but no emblems. Each cell I mean. So the people on Noveria and Feros are all part of the same cell. They have matching armors (and an overall professional look) and colors, but no emblem beyond rank insignias. However members of any other Cerberus cells, should they ever be encountered, have a different color scheme and armor style.[/quote]That could work.
[quote]
Note: Shepard recognizes MIranda and her squad because they are part of the same cell that ran the operations he saw in ME1. [/quote]That one would be tricky.

[quote]
Further note: the rachni depot quest would largely stay the same (only with "General" being replaced with Illusive Man), but the Binthu quest would be different. Instead Shepard locates the base on the planet but finds it devoid of personnel minus dozens of rachni, thorian creepers, and husks that have been set loose in the base. Apparently deliberately as the Cerberus personnel have evacuated along with all incriminated evidence. All that is left behind is Kohoku's corpse. This quest is also only made available after Noveria and Feros are complete.

The point being that Shepard realizes too late that a 'rogue' group called Cerberus was behind the events on Noveria and Feros and managed to manipulate him to allow their escape. They were, somehow, tipped off on Binthu and evaded him one last time...[/quote]Tipped off by Joker?

That said, I do like it. Loose ends on the story worlds, especially the Cerberus involvement, resolved in the Cerberus-related side missions.


[/quote]

[Nizzemancer]

Saphra Deden wrote...

didymos1120 wrote...


Best strippers?

Hardly.

let me know when the supposedly sexy stuff happens...

[CptData]

Ah guys ... whatever about stripping Tali (featured Feature of ME3: Tali strips O.o)

I'd like to read some different ideas about the entire Virmire-decision. Any ideas how to make it different? I just gave away one idea, but I'm sure there are more waiting to be explored.