143 réponses à ce sujet

[DiegoProgMetal]

I don't know if you got angry with my answer, it was not my intention. Getting the emotions behind "cold" words are sometimes a little hard. Harder if it's not the first language of who is reading/writing. Anyway, if you felt offended in any way, I'm sorry. It was really not my intention.

Dude, 30 years is not old. I'm 27. We may not be kids anymore, but we are just starting our lives.

[CptData]

Nah, I'm not angry at all. What gave you that idea

30 is "too old" for starting to work for a game company I think. At least if you lack evidence you have the skills. I'm a writer but never released anything except some short (and never finished) stories on ff.net. So how to prove I'm good?

No idea. So I consider myself as "too old" to do that. At least I need to write one or two really good books to be considered as a "writer" at all. Right now I lack that time and an idea that works. And fan fiction for ME or so won't do the trick.

In that case I'm like my fav character Ashley: a darn realist.^^

[Cpt-Brit]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, like, a Reinterpretation of Mass Effect?


(Warning: grimm-dark Mass Effect lies beyond that link. )

This is amazing... I'm about 20 pages in and all I can say is "what the fu*k" lol

I think this is the mindset that humanity needs to rule the galaxy in ME and its not going to happen...

[moneycashgeorge]

Cpt-Brit wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, like, a Reinterpretation of Mass Effect?


(Warning: grimm-dark Mass Effect lies beyond that link. )

This is amazing... I'm about 20 pages in and all I can say is "what the fu*k" lol

I think this is the mindset that humanity needs to rule the galaxy in ME and its not going to happen...

I just finished reading this whole thing and I loved every moment of it. Can anyone link something similar to this? Any other alternate versions of Mass Effect?

As for a hypothetical reboot......man theres countless ways the series could be made so much better.

-More species and females for every species
-Homeworlds for every species available from the start
.......I could keep going forever so i'm going to stop there


But the main thing any reboot would need to accomplish to be worth the effort is massive, radical consequences to every decision. Mass Effect has utterly failed at its promises of real, meaningfull choices. A reboot trilogy that plans everything from the start and puts the time in to make legitimate branching stories would be the best trilogy ever. In its present form, Mass Effect falls far short of that.

[CptData]

moneycashgeorge wrote...

Cpt-Brit wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, like, a Reinterpretation of Mass Effect?


(Warning: grimm-dark Mass Effect lies beyond that link. )

This is amazing... I'm about 20 pages in and all I can say is "what the fu*k" lol

I think this is the mindset that humanity needs to rule the galaxy in ME and its not going to happen...

I just finished reading this whole thing and I loved every moment of it. Can anyone link something similar to this? Any other alternate versions of Mass Effect?

As for a hypothetical reboot......man theres countless ways the series could be made so much better.

-More species and females for every species
-Homeworlds for every species available from the start
.......I could keep going forever so i'm going to stop there


But the main thing any reboot would need to accomplish to be worth the effort is massive, radical consequences to every decision. Mass Effect has utterly failed at its promises of real, meaningfull choices. A reboot trilogy that plans everything from the start and puts the time in to make legitimate branching stories would be the best trilogy ever. In its present form, Mass Effect falls far short of that.

Dunno if you read / checked my "flow chart" but there are at least two decisions with "huge" impact.

One is the question for "which Cerberus base" - Mars or Venus? If you pick Mars you'll basically pick the Cerberus beginning in ME2, if you pick Venus you'll start the Alliance story arc. That decision doesn't look important at first but is one of the pivot points of the story.

Same for Virmire - you can save one or both or none. That will have some influence too.

I'm still working at flow chart for reboot!ME2.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...


There is a little bit of a tug-of-war between the Alliance, Council, and Cerberus. The Council is very gung-ho about exposing what Cerberus really is. They actually encourage Shepard to get closer to Cerberus in the hopes that he'll uncover evidence that the Council can use against them (and it is implied, the Alliance, at least in a Paragon universe). It is they who authorize the Shepard to accept EDI, but insist on limiters. They will also be the ones to suggest to Shepard to look for a Cerberus mole on the Normandy. [/quote]This is a darn good view of it. The Council being openly 'we'll work together... and try to screw you' with Cerberus makes sense. It's also the sort of deal TIM would still make: him being open about it ('Now I know that you know that I know that you've been told to screw me') would underline the tug-of-war feel.

You've cornered three different aspects: how Shepard can work with Cerberus, how EDI is involved and restrained, and the tug of war.

[quote]
The Alliance, with Hackett as their voice, are somehow conveyed to be potentially hiding something. They appear to take the Council's side, but Hackett will remind Shepard of the importance of confidentiality, reminding him of the nuclear probe and Lord Darius incidents (if this mission was ever given) from the previous game. The Alliance balks at the suggestion that the Normandy has a mole and dismiss the investigation. Are they just arrogant? Covering their asses? Or actually conspiring?[/quote]This is good, especially the bit about confidentiality.

What I would suggest, however, is something more concretely Alliance in the game. There's a clear Cerberus choice (destroying the base), and the Council is generally the anti-Cerberus options, but the Alliance seems to lack its own 'hook'. What differentiates it from Cerberus, besides Lorek?


It seems to me that a number of the N7 missions could also be tied into 'different factions pulling you around,' if we let the side-missions be prompted by the Big Three. If we had an Alliance hubworld as well, that might perfect the triangle.

Illium is the 'Council' foot in the Terminus, where the Council gives its preferences. (In the Human-Council, these requests are as much to placate alien interests as they are self-interest.) N7 missions received on Illium generally benefit the Council interests: removing Elipse mercs from near Illium, etc.

Omega, firmly in the Terminus, makes sense as a Cerberus place. Cerberus plays footsies with Aria, has a place to stay, and has the closest thing to a 'base' Shepard can go to. (A high-security hanger and cell which Cerberus loans Shepard). Cerberus N7 missions are favors for Cerberus: fighting their rivals, or helping them recover technology. Recovering the Prothean beacon from the Blue Suns, for example. Stealing the Eclipse supplies.

An Alliance-related hub-world (Horizon, maybe? Building an Alliance base pre-mission, annexed after?) would be where you get most of your Alliance-interest missions. Things that defend colonies, fight geth, etc. The Javeline Missile Base, or the Geth-hijacked ship.

[quote]
The mission on Lorek involving the lost Cerberus operative and incriminating data still occurs and of-course each side demands the data and warns of consequences should Shepard choose one over the other (which he must). [/quote]Good, good...

[quote]
Perhaps the existence of Overlord is hinted at in ME2 but we never actually visit it? (there's no accident there) It could be saved for ME3 and be one of the major subplots in that game.[/quote]I'm hesitant. Part of Overlord was that it wasn't complete, and ME3 is a bit late to break AND fix it.

Instead, an Alliance/Cerberus decision? You can give David over to Cerberus, OR the Alliance? The Alliance could then be ominously implicated in continuing the research in a more moral way: 'oh, we aren't trying to take over the Geth: we just need to understand how it works to heal David.'

[quote]
Now, in a Renegade universe all of the above will have to play out differently. The human Council is more or less an extension of the Alliance (and thus possibly linked to Cerberus). I'm thinking that one way or another in a Renegade universe Shepard should be made to feel that they are all conspiring behind his back (perhaps together) and that nobody can be trusted. So instead of tug-of-war they all appear to be keeping Shepard in the loop whilst they manipulate him.

In both universes Shepard's contact with Anderson is limited, with the Alliance listing excuses as to why he can't be reached.

The Lorek mission however is much less contentious with the parties involved merely telling Shepard to upload the data to the Normandy for storage. "They're not fighting about it? Odd..."[/quote]I like this. It would be hard to pull off, but I like it.

ME2 definitely needed better tone differentiation, and this would be a good one.

[quote]
I think I agree. Also, I changed my mind about the VS. As a result of ME1 they were promoted but also transferred from the Normandy (this makes the romance more believable I think). One of Shepard's problems in ME2 is of-course that the Alliance seems to be making it difficult to contact the VS just as they are Anderson. As such Miranda and Jacob are of-course recruited at the end of the "prologue" mission at the start of the game.[/quote]Makes sense, I suppose.

Might we jetisson the Suicide Mission? The mechanics need a rewrite at the least, but getting rid of it (and thus character deaths) would simply carry-over into ME3. No more 'this character might die, and so can no longer be important.'

[quote]
No, there is no need for a revenge plot against the Shadow Broker because... I'm thinking he's not even in this universe. (I find having a Shadow Broker and an Illusive Man to be a little redundant) What do you think? 

Liara is instead leading archeological digs in search of more information about the Reapers and their past victims. Maybe she is the one who locates the Reaper derelict? I'm thinking that after ME1 Cerberus started investigating Klendagon and they actually hired Liara through a front company to help them. At the time she didn't realize who she was actually working for.

When TIM reveals the existence of the derelict Reaper to Shepard he sets up a meeting for him with Liara first. From her we get a chilling tale: she as hired by a private company for an archeological expedition into pre-Prothean societies. However when she located the origin and target of the Klendagon impactor she also realized she was working with Cerberus. They swiftly detained her and until recently she's been in a secret Cerberus prison. She's in good health (wasn't tortured), but this is the first contact with the outside world she's had since that time. (or maybe they have her continue working for them... only with a figurative collar around her neck?) I think this helps establish Cerberus as not just stealthy, but also menacing. She warns Shepard that Cerberus is surely manipulating him the same way they did her.[/quote]Ditching the Shadow Broker is simple enough: he could still exist, but he's 'just' a secrets-trader rather than a nigh-omniscient private army. Liara being the one to discover the Derilect Reaper also makes sense, especially through a Cerberus front company.

Liara being in a prison, a bit less so. Too over the top and counter-productive.

[quote]
Liara then joins the squad?[/quote]If the VS did, I'd say yes, but no if not.

[quote]
Otherwise I am still kind of up in the air as to who should be Shepard's other squadmates. I want to avoid what ME2 did with having too many or squadmates who were recruited for unclear reasons. Each one should join Shepard's squad as a natural result of the plot. [/quote]I think with modest tweaking, Thane could be justified. Tie it with Hanar interests, and Thane as the executor thereof.

Maybe joint Human-Hanar colonies in the Terminus are common (Humans take the land, Hanar get the sea: share the costs of developing the coasts and colonization). While the Hanar aren't a military force, they do have many interests in the Terminus, and when the Collectors/Geth attack Human colonies they also wipe out the Hanar parts. On top of charity work for the survivors, Hanar are self-interested in helping the Human colonies, so the hanar share intel and Thane is sent to help.

In a Paragon Council, the Hanar are portrayed as generous and more benevolent intents. In the Renegade Council, it could be suggested that they're also currying favor with the Alliance, for more Council concessions.


[quote]
I'm thinking Mordin is recruited for largely the same reason he is in the real ME2. However a further subplot with him is this: Cerberus already knows him and he them. When the STG worked on the genophage modification they were working with Binary-Helix, and through them came into contact with Cerberus. As a follow-up the STG did an investigation into Cerberus trying to track their use of the genophage data which they assumed Cerberus had stolen. They were correct and were eventually lead to Virmire where they became trapped by Saren. (this was Kirrahe's original objective) What do you think of that possible link?

To elaborate on his role: I'm thinking he is not so much a biologist as a forensics expert. It is he who cracks open the geth's relationship with the Collectors. You know, he's kind of a detective/scientist. [/quote]I think the STG-Binary Helix-Cerberus-Virmire link is interesting, and should be considered.

I don't think it requires changing Mordin: Mordin doesn't have to be the one who tracked the link from genetics work to Virmire.

[quote]
I'm thinking that another squadmate is a quarian, someone who is an A.I. expert and will be needed to hack necessary intelligence from the geth. This is so that Shepard and company can make their next big break on the geth. It's sort of a larger scale version of what Tali did in ME1. Once this is accomplished the geth's base of operations is revealed and they just need a way to get there.  I'm thinking Daro'Xen could be this character, only she'd be an outcast instead of an admiral. Rael's story from ME2 is her backstory. IE: she ran a lab ship experimenting on geth but she raised them to awareness to further her research. There was an accident and people were killed and she was exiled.

(she also actually be a Cerberus informant or otherwise an ally or just somebody they are interested in recruiting for future use in Project Overlord)

After Mordin and Xen have been recruited and their tasks for the team completed the derelict Reaper is revealed by the Illusive Man and Liara made available for recruitment. [/quote]Not Tali? Heresy!

But really, it does make sense as a non-Tali person, who herself was never suggested as 'best of the best' in ME1. Xen fits the role as an AI expert, a Quarian nationalist, and the Rael backstory makes good backstory.

As a Quarian nationalist, she could even help play into the Conspiracy-within-conspiracy angles. Cerberus wants her AI expertise enough to ignore security risks, the Council might offer reconciliation with the Quarians in exchange for spying on Cerberus for them, and she herself wants to find something she can send back to the Migrant Fleet in order to have her exile revoked.

Her ME3 fate could then be tied with Overlord.


[quote]
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Establishing the heretics as a continued presence could make a good focus. Continuing the war with the Geth... but now the Geth have changed tactics, and are responsible for abducting Human colonies. The Alliance and Council are pre-occupied with the main war, and blame it on slavers.[/quote]

That is my idea too but who said anything about heretics? Honestly I'd rather there be no "Legion", no geth "good guys". In many ways I think it undermines the quarian/geth dilemma. If there were to be "heretics" they should be the programs inside Legion. However I'm still not sure I'd want to even go with that. I think the geth are better when we can't talk to them. It is a passive way of establishing their alien-ness. [/quote]I can see it, but at the same time I'm not keen to reversing major plot points for little gain.

I'm mixed. Legion never appealed to me either.


[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

(Cerberus was) Tipped off by Joker?[/quote]

Yes.

...

Another idea I was toying with was that Captain Ventralis on Peak 15 is replaced instead by Jacob Taylor. (he might not introduce himself with his full name, but Shepard would recognize him in ME2) This also means that when you reach Riftstation you won't wind up fighting anyone there except Benezia's commandos/geth should you trigger their booby-trap before finding Benezia.

So either you go into the hotlabs and purge the rachni there and come back to find the Cerberus personnel gone, or you go straight to Benezia (via' that miniquest with the doctor) and on your way out (never have to go to the hot labs) see that the folks in Riftstation have vanished.

The strangeness of the situation is only immediately apparent back on the Normandy where it is pointed out by K/A that the survivors in Riftstation never turned up at Port Hanshan. [/quote]All three of these are good. Jacob as a foreshadowing cameo works well, since Ventralis was a sympathetic character in the first place, and the post-active strangeness definitely plays to the subtle conspiracy angle.

Joker needs some motivation, however. Did Cerberus recognize his skill and sponsor him into the Alliance? (IE, it was Cerberus who pulled the strings to let him fly?) How tight is his bond to Cerberus? What happens when/if you confront him in ME2?

[Dean_the_Young]

moneycashgeorge wrote...

Cpt-Brit wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

So, like, a Reinterpretation of Mass Effect?


(Warning: grimm-dark Mass Effect lies beyond that link. )

This is amazing... I'm about 20 pages in and all I can say is "what the fu*k" lol

I think this is the mindset that humanity needs to rule the galaxy in ME and its not going to happen...

I just finished reading this whole thing and I loved every moment of it. Can anyone link something similar to this? Any other alternate versions of Mass Effect?

It's not posted yet, but the author sent me a ME2 reinterpretation where Cerberus is a primary enemy, working for the Collectors. It's based on an idea Xilhara once had, about how the Shadow Broker would make an interesting psuedo-religious cult ally.

I think I have the outline somewhere. Text me if you would like me to PM it.

[Cpt-Brit]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I just finished reading this whole thing and I loved every moment of it. Can anyone link something similar to this? Any other alternate versions of Mass Effect?
[/quote]It's not posted yet, but the author sent me a ME2 reinterpretation where Cerberus is a primary enemy, working for the Collectors. It's based on an idea Xilhara once had, about how the Shadow Broker would make an interesting psuedo-religious cult ally.

I think I have the outline somewhere. Text me if you would like me to PM it.

[/quote]

What so hes "Finished" his ME2 reinterpretation and not go round to posting it, or just set the foundations so to speak?

[Dean_the_Young]

Cpt-Brit wrote...

What so hes "Finished" his ME2 reinterpretation and not go round to posting it, or just set the foundations so to speak?

He finished the outline awhile ago, put it up on FFN, and then took it down when he decided to write dialogue for it.

Last I checked, he was writing dialogue for the DLC, and was considering character missions (as opposed to the main-story dialogue).

[Cpt-Brit]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Cpt-Brit wrote...

What so hes "Finished" his ME2 reinterpretation and not go round to posting it, or just set the foundations so to speak?

He finished the outline awhile ago, put it up on FFN, and then took it down when he decided to write dialogue for it.

Last I checked, he was writing dialogue for the DLC, and was considering character missions (as opposed to the main-story dialogue).

Well that man/woman is a bloody good writer I haven't sat down and read one thing for this long since I was a school... Well if you don't include the time I sat down and read most of ME1 Codex entries and yes I had them all by the time I did it lol.

Modifié par Cpt-Brit, 10 novembre 2011 - 05:21 .

[Dean_the_Young]

That sounds like good review fodder.

To be clear, did you want that other outline or not?

Modifié par Dean_the_Young, 10 novembre 2011 - 08:01 .

[CptData]

We definitely need to build up a reboot!team of story writers.
And we need a chairman who's being able to sell that story to EA. Again. ^^


However, I think I'll post at least a part of my flow chart for ME2 today evening. Also I'll review some characters of ME and ME2, but that will take some time. ME-characters won't change that much, but most ME2 characters - they need to have less heavy flaws but more subtle ones and some more character. Don't get me wrong, some of the ME2-cast comes with some really well developed character, others don't. Mordin is imo one of the best characters in the entire series so far, he's one of the few I won't touch characterwise.

[DnVill]

I'd say make Kaiden and Jacob's characters less boring.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

The Council being openly 'we'll work together... and try to screw you' with Cerberus makes sense. It's also the sort of deal TIM would still make: him being open about it ('Now I know that you know that I know that you've been told to screw me') would underline the tug-of-war feel.[/quote]

Another angle I forgot to mention when it comes to the tug-of-war/conspiracies, is that the Paragon Council is quick to remind Shepard at the start that Cerberus was one of Saren's allies so for all they know they are still agents for the Reapers. It might not necessarily be true, but the fear is a realistic one and it keeps even a Renegade from getting totally into bed with Cerberus. The implications of this fear are of-course much worse if you have a human Council. (in that case someone other than the Council will point this out)[/quote]Realistic are good fears.


BTW, you mind if I write this up as a summary/outline?

[quote]
I still need to think about this more. A lot of this I only think-up as I'm writing my response. [/quote]Best time for thinking, I know.

[quote]
Also, I'm not even sure Omega will exist in this universe. A drastic change, I know, but that's the joy of a reboot. While I did enjoy Omega in ME2 (and in Ascension), to me it still feels a but unnecessary. The Citadel is big enough and the lower parts of the wards were supposed to be dangerous like Omega is (perhaps a bit less so, but close enough). I also at times feel Ilium is redundant as well because as far as look, sound, and feel it is very similar to the ME2 Citadel.

Then again I also have considered many times in the past a ME2 where you can't visit the Citadel and are exlusively in the Terminus Systems. So in that case Omega would be kept I imagine.

I'll repeat myself again: this all needs a lot more thought. I'm not even sure at this stage what the objective or premise of the plot is.
[/quote]I can see, but I also think you shouldn't toss things out without a suitable replacement. Omega could stand a good rewrite in and of itself (less poverty and slums, more industrial-revolution New York with immigrant incomers, great wealth, but massive inequality as people struggle for the dream), but Omega is distinctly 'Terminus.' There really isn't any other equivalent, and a big point of ME2 is moving away from the Council-space.

No Citadel at all makes more sense than no Omega, even if Omega needs refurbishing.

[quote]
You see I don't like the Collector focus on humans for a few reasons.

1.) I don't like Reapers being made from organic parts as to me it clashes a bit with Sovereign

2.) I don't like exploring human worlds. We did enough of that in ME1. Let's land on alien worlds and immerse ourselves in alien societies. [/quote]I agree and disagree. The revelation that Reapers are post-organic species is too central to the series to do away with. They really shouldn't be made into super-Geth. Now, if they were that virtual-reality ship from CDN...

But I agree that pure-Human worlds, even though we really only went to one in ME1, are a bit boring. Terminus empires are constantly referred to, but we never really got to see any.

If the Collectors attacked entire colonies with human populations (that early-concept colony-wide stasis field?), then mixed colonies could be a target. Especially if we expand the role of the Omega Plague (nominally a Geth bio-weapon?).


[quote]

I'm hesitant. Part of Overlord was that it wasn't complete, and ME3 is a bit late to break AND fix it.[/quote]

I like your suggestion though it could be fitted into my concept of Overlord in ME3. Allow me to elaborate.

The idea I had was that sometime during ME3 Cerberus is close to getting Overlord working when the location of the facility is somehow leaked to the Reapers. Thus the project is invaded by a geth fleet headed by a Reaper. They land, indoctrinating and huskifying most of the personnel on the surface and prepare to invade the sub-surface lab (the layout is the same as in ME2, over all anyway). Miranda manages to get a distress signal out just in time so Shepard has to go there and save the project.

There is no David choice, no torture of an autistic man. However at the end Shepard will decide how to handle the project.

A.) It can be modified to 'kill' the geth by transmitting to them faulty programming

B.) It can activated to do what it was intended to do, giving the Illusive Man a geth army for use against the Reapers... however there are questions as to what the final result of this will be once the Reapers are defeated

C.) If Daro'Xen survived ME3 she will be present at the facility and control of the geth can be turned over to her... with similar questions as to the aftermath of the war.

So the geth can be "captured" and used in the final battle against the Reapers with galactic scale consequences down the road or simply eliminated for a harder war with the Reapers but safer post-war environment.

Though I do need to think up a reason why the Reapers didn't just obliterate the satellite dish since they don't need Overlord themselves. Could be the base is protected by a shield, or at least the dish is. The main lab is of-course deep below the surface like in ME2 proper so they couldn't just bomb it.

Enemies fought are husks (various types), geth, Reaper minions (whatever those new ones are), and indoctrinated Cerberus personnel.

It would be one of the major plot missions in ME3 and linked to the quarian/geth war. Though I'm not sure how. Needs more thought. I welcome your input (and anyone else's).

Though I do like your idea about David and the Alliance, just for the record.[/quote]Record noted. I like your outline of this as well.

At this point, however, it's a bit overpowered. It needs limitations of some sort. If there were a Geth/Heretic split, I'd suggest that only Geth with 'religious' impulses (the canon-Heretics) could be affected. Otherwise, only Geth with immediate exposure to the Overlord could be affected: rather than control all Geth, only Geth who can see/sense the Overlord are affected.

Or maybe just individual platforms: too dumb to be 'sentient' on their own, with the Overlord co-opting the 'hub' network. As long as they're exposed to Overlord, they take 'hub'-orders from the Overlord.





[quote]
Yeah, I only have a vague-ish idea how it would be done. Needs more work, but I think it would be great. Something to keep in mind is that I imagine some of the briefings for the major missions in the game might be sort of "conference calls" between the Council, Illusive Man, Admiral Hackett, and Shepard. So a lot of it is just conceptualizing the tone of those conversations and the drama (or lack there of) during some of the N7 missions.[/quote]Management by comittee, with Shepard in the middle (and trying to play peace-maker)? That has to be there now.

Though we need to put a face on the Renegade Council. Udina?[quote]
Yeah I'd been thinking about that. Like I said I'm still unsure of exactly what the main plot is. A thing that always bothered me with the Collector is how similar they are to the geth already.

The Collectors and geth are both hidden behind an "impassable" barrier in the form of the Omega-4 Relay and Perseus Veil.

Both are reclusive, having little contact with outsidres.

Both seem to have very advanced technology.

Both utilize husks in their attacks.

Both deploy kinetic barriers for their troops.

Both serve the Reapers.

So even back in the early days of ME2 I felt the geth could have been used instead of the Collectors without needing to change the plot very much. The Suicide Mission doesn't necessarily work as well with a smaller squad either. It was a nice idea but the large squad wound up dilluting things a bit and the SM was too easy anyway. So yeah, still up in the air about this...[/quote]You know, those similarities are a pretty good point. Besides the Omega Relay itself, they could be combined.

[quote]
Regarding the Shadow Broker and Liara. I just don't think we need a Shadow Broker at all. All the races have their own spys and espionage groups anyway. To explain Wrex in ME1 isn't that hard. Just about anybody could be after Fist and Wrex could request to join Shepard for the same reasons he does in ME1 proper. [/quote]I agree. 'Best in the field' could be all that's needed, but it doesn't necessitate the canon ME2 expansion. The Shadow Broker could be effectively non-existent.'

[quote]
On topic of Liara specifically, did you like the idea that Cerberus was sort of forcing her to work with them (before meeting Shepard) or did you dislike both ideas? I rather like it myself as after all they wouldn't want anybody knowing they found the Klendagon weapon and she might tell somebody. Then again if that's the case why turn he over to Shepard? Hum. I suppose by that point it could be for any number of reasons. Perhaps TIM has moved it and revealing that he has it might be a good way to intimidate the Council and Alliance, or rather, encourage them to keep Cerberus on as an ally.[/quote]
I liked the idea about Cerberus leading her around by the nose without her knowing. I didn't like 'forcing.' Rather, I'd think setting her up in a position where she willingly continues her research even when she knows who else it's helping would be more insidious. It would help the 'Cerberus will manipulate you by seeming reasonable' track: in this case, while Liara was led into looking for the target of the Klendagon Canon (the Reaper), it's only afterwards that she realizes that by finding the target, she was able to help Cerberus find the canon.

By simply establishing that TIM has taken possession of the canon and since moved it, Liara is no longer a threat to that. So maybe an information black-out where she couldn't warn anyone, but was treated well?

I agree that the canon becomes a great trump card for establishing a place in the galaxy for Cerberus... and it could even be a secret, to-be-revealed reason as to why the Council has reversed its stance on Cerberus. It's not just the Collector/Geth activities in the Terminus: it's the fact that Cerberus was a WMD that can destroy their homeworlds.


[quote]
By the way, near the start of the game the Council/Alliance would reveal that for the duration of the investigation they were suspending the criminal warrants against Cerberus. So that's another angle to keep in mind. As long as the Council and Alliance are in bed with Cerberus then Cerberus can operate a little more freely in the galaxy. (this angle should be brought up as well as it adds tension?) This would add some motivation for the Alliance and further justify their expedient approach to finishing the investigation (or that's what they'd claim). TIM wouldn't be overt about any of this but when he reveals that Cerberus found the (defunct) Klendagon weapon the Council/Alliance would accuse him of trying to intimidate them. (the Renegade universe just has them dismissing the defunct relic and instead inquiring about the state of the derelict Reaper)[/quote]I think these are both good points.

If we shift away from 'Collectors', but keep 'Geth are now active in Terminus Systems, but Terminus still won't trust Council intervention', then Cerberus offering itself as a proxy gives another basis of coopertion. In exchange they want the suspension of warrants (and possibly offer to minimize their own overt actions: no abductions/assassinations in Citadel space for now).

[quote]
I like the idea you suggested about the hanar, but one thing: how do you tweak Thane exactly? Something to keep in mind is this: Thane's character fails horribly as a squadmate. What I mean by that, is that the gameplay just doesn't allow him to actually be an assassin or use stealth. This is the same with Kasumi, really. He's fun to watch in cutscenes but in gameplay he's just another person with a gun and looks silly.

Otherwise I like him a lot. Thane stands his ground with Shepard ("I can still leave") and his motivation for joining the Suicide Mission is succintly and adequately explained.

Thoughts? [/quote]The main tweak would be that Thane is an active duty agent for the Hanar even now. He still has most the same back-story (met wife, lived in peace, wife was killed in retaliation), but now it's more that he's abandoned his son in the name of duty as well. Duty, as much as guilt, is his excuse for not reconciling with his son. So Thane is a well-respected Agent of the State and mostly moral person who seems quite admirable, but struggles with his guilt at his cowardness and self-rationalizations in not returning to his son.

In importance to the plot... well, that's more important than character powers. I'd certainly suggest him having a sniping-power (complete with red-laser sight) for battle. But plot...

I see him more as an extension of the Hanar role, both in the plot (a symbol of their cooperation in ME2) and in the lore (how the Associate species serve themselves, how the Associate species are left to colonize the Terminus in order to grow stronger).


Kasumi... fun, but less of a role without a super-suicide mission. She's a good character to drop.



[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

I think the STG-Binary Helix-Cerberus-Virmire link is interesting, and should be considered.

I don't think it requires changing Mordin: Mordin doesn't have to be the one who tracked the link from genetics work to Virmire. [/quote]

No no, I think you misunderstood me or maybe my concept is a bit addeled. I just wanted Mordin to reveal to Shepard at one point that the reason Cerberus came to him is because they've worked before. He would then explain BH, the team-up with Cerberus on the genophage, and that a follow-up mission lead by Kirrahe was to track Cerberus and find out where they took their share of the research. Mordin would then suggest that the real reason Kirrahe went to Virmire was not to track Saren, but to track Cerberus.

My problem with Mordin at this stage is that, as I've explained, the plot is still kind of up in the air so I'm not 100% positive what he's on the crew for. [/quote]Ah, ok. I did misunderstand.

Good piece.
[quote]
[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

As a Quarian nationalist, she could even help play into the Conspiracy-within-conspiracy angles. Cerberus wants her AI expertise enough to ignore security risks, the Council might offer reconciliation with the Quarians in exchange for spying on Cerberus for them, and she herself wants to find something she can send back to the Migrant Fleet in order to have her exile revoked.

Her ME3 fate could then be tied with Overlord.[/quote]

Indeed!

Also, just a pre-emptive disclaimer: there's no romance with her.[/quote]Why Saph, I'm surprised. I would have thought you'd-


And hey, evil!thought. You know what might make a good (modified) mission to pick her up?

Xen is that Quarian 'indentured servant' being sold on Illium.


Alright. Serious question, however: how does Tali get involved? Even without being a major character, she deserves a cameo.
[quote]

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

Joker needs some motivation, however. Did Cerberus recognize his skill and sponsor him into the Alliance? (IE, it was Cerberus who pulled the strings to let him fly?) How tight is his bond to Cerberus? What happens when/if you confront him in ME2?

[/quote]

Yes. Part of the way Joker is uncovered as a spy is that Shepard learns that in his childhood he had vrolicks (I'm not looking up how to spell that) syndrome. One way or the other Cerberus discovered his apptitude for piloting, recruited him, and as part of the deal they did extensive genetic and surgical work to fix his legs.

When confronted about this and his deception in ME1 I see his reaction being one of shame. Especially if Shepard were to ask him "Would you send me into a Cerberus trap if they ordered you to?" At the end of all this Joker (and probably Jacob) are two characters I see becoming less enthusiastic about Cerberus.[/quote]That's good. Personally I don't like Joker, but I did feel he had a bit of guilt about getting Shepard killed. This is a good transition of guilt.

[quote]
Jacob, by the way, I imagined having a necessarily different backstory. Instead of being side-lined after Eden Prime he was side-lined after Torfan. However as he gradually becomes more and more expose to Cerberus' ruthlessness he becomes disillusioned. [quote]Torfan? Someone once under the Butcher's command?


(As a side note: I always thought it'd be interesting if 'the Shepards who weren't' had some sort of nod. Just the Career histories, but something like 'the Sole Survivor is in a military hospital for therapy', or 'the Hero of Skyllian Blitz is being sent to fight he Geth', or 'the Butcher of Torfan has drawn new protests from the Batarian Hegemony after being sent to deal with slavers on the frontier.')


[quote]
I wrote a file detailing the missions to Noveria and Feros, their backstories, and Cerberus' role there. As well as a bit of a follow-up for Feros in ME2.

If you want to read it I could upload it somewhere if you want. I think I'd like your thoughts on it anyway.

[/quote]Please, PM me. I'm interested in typing this up myself if I need to.

[Dean_the_Young]

[quote]Saphra Deden wrote...

How about Caleston? Read the description. It sounds perfect. [/quote]From the summary, it's just a resource world. Did you have something in mind?
[quote]
I disagree completely. What did that revelation really do to explain their motivations? [/quote]That they aren't just trying to kill us. The Reapers also preserve life. It's the difference of perspective between a god of destruction and a god of destruction and rebirth.

[quote]
Anyway, I have thought-up the outline for what the premise for the game is.

Basically the war with the geth has started going badly for the Council. They have had to halt their advance and even retreat in an effort to safeguard their worlds. Without explanation geth forces have begun striking everywhere in the galaxy, deep behind defensive lines in systems that should be impossible for them to reach. They simply appear out of nowhere and lay waste. Many important military installations have been lost and even the home worlds have come under assault. How the geth are doing this is a mystery but if they aren't stopped the Council is going to lose the war.

What is actually happening is that the geth have built their own version of the Citadel relay. Their relay is intended to reach into dark space. This way they can send some of their forces there to awaken the Reapers directly and transport them into the galaxy. However the geth don't know where in dark space to look (space is big) so in the mean time they are using the relay to send forces freely about the galaxy.

Thus we have a sub-plot linked to this: the geth are scouring the galaxy looking for... something. They are trying to discover the origins of the Reapers in order to find out where the relay in dark space is located. I am thinking the Leviathan of Dis could be connected to this (and this would be a hook to bring in a batraian squadmate and visit batarian worlds and interact with them and such).

Thus by the plot's conclusion we should know where the Reapers came from and have some indication of how they might be stopped. Something about their nature or a weakness we can exploit. In addition, the politics and conspiracies at play in the game should lay the foundation for the alliances that we'll finalize in ME3.

So what do you think about that?
[/quote]I was actually going to bring up the idea that the 'Omega 4' relay equivalent might be a long-hidden relay the Geth are using to bypass the Council's fleets. Infact, I'll remind you that we already do have a far-reaching relay in canon: the Alpha Relay.

Or there's another look at the lore. Because the Council had forbidden the opening of relays since the Rachni Wars, we know the Council doesn't know all the relays in the galaxy. Sovereign did, and so the Geth can. The Geth could be using never-discovered relays to bypass the Citadel blockade of the Perseus Veil and strike deep within the galaxy. (For political/story reasons, this 'back door' actually leads into the Terminus, from which the Geth go elsewhere.)

I do like the idea of the Geth trying to build an artificial Citadel: it makes a good Collector Base analog: it's the highest-caliber Reaper technology, but unlike the Citadel it's not been made to be indecipherable. While the Geth are trying to find the MacGuffin, Shepard is trying to find the back-door relay into the Perseus Veil.

I'm not sure we need the Geth to be winning the war on their own. A hard, bloody stalemate (with Geth raids across Council space) would be good, but otherwise any of those 'let's take control of the Geth' plots becomes too potent.


As a matter of course, I love the idea of a Batarian squadmate.

[quote]
Actually I'd been thinking of that since I posted it. I think that Overlord will have a limited capacity. It cannot control all of the geth at once, only a portion.

Furthermore, the dish that it transmits was cleverly hidden, disguised beneath a landing pad. Once Overlord is activated the landing pad slides away to reveal a cavern that the sattelite dish raises out of. This is why it wasn't destroyed at the start (cause otherwise you'd think the Reapers would do that first). [/quote]Good, and that does help work it into ME3.

[quote]
Well I was hoping to somehow convey to Shepard and the player how scary Cerberus can be (to contrast TIM always trying to appear friendly). I had the idea that when Shepard meets Liara she is a bit shaken up and obviously scared. She also might mention that a creepy bastard named Kai Leng was her watcher (but we never meet him... in ME2 that is). It's to keep Shepard and player nervous about Cerberus. Like, they didn't abuse Liara in any way, but they still detained her against her will. [/quote]A Kai Leng reference could be useful. I suppose I just favor ominous, but nothing overt.

Keeping Liara detained while they moved the Klendagon canon would be a good motive.




[quote]

I do like it. Maybe though instead of being an assassin he is more of a bodyguard? Thus we don't have that ridiculous emphasis on stealth we never see? Though I'm also thinking the drell relationship with the hanar could maybe be altered. One problem I have with the drell is that the way they were designed we can never see too many of them. I think it might be better if they are an independent Terminus race. [/quote]Perhaps rather than the Malthusian collapse, a poor Terminus world that struck a vassal-state deal with the Hanar? The Volus/Turian reltation in reverse: the Drell are the minority enforcers, the Hanar the big economy who enables the Drell to survive.

Thane as a sniper-assasin, rather than a stealth-assassin, could broaden his scope. He could have done it all: long-range assasination, SWAT, etc.

[quote]
Vorcha would be another race I'd like to see altered, though that probably just means making them more intelligent so that they can be actual characters and have meaningful interaction with Shepard. [/quote]True enough. I like the idea of a Vorcha Free State: sort of a slave-rebellion that succeded, and is trying to make itself the independent Vorcha civilization.

[quote]
Vorcha, krogan, drell, batarians, and quarians would be the main featured races in the game as Shepard needs to move through their territory as he uncovers the geth plot. He needs their help. In the process he is trying to, one way or the other, pacify the Terminus so it won't be an issue when the Reapers invade. You know, getting back to that whole "ME2 is the prelude to the alliances in ME3". [/quote]Agreed. With fewer characters, the characters we do have are as much about building ties with the Terminus powers.

(But how do we factor the Merc Groups?)

[quote]
Council space is a place we hear about in ME2 but don't get to visit. Save that for ME3. [/quote]Fair enough.

[quote]
Also with this in mind I think I'm just going to axe the whole "Cerberus/STG/BH connection". I also think I'll axe the idea that Feros is a Cerberus cell. Instead the references to Cerberus buying specimens from other Exo-Geni sites can be clarified. We don't want too much Cerberus exposure. Just enough to tease at what is to come.

Elaborating on that, Virmire was actually a Cerberus base that Saren more or less borrowed and, after turning on them, took over. He imprisoned the Cerberus presonnel there and used them in his experiments. Instead of only finding indoctrinated salarians when we go inside we also find Cerberus personnel. We recognize their armor from Noveria and logs inside detail a bit about what happened, spelling out that Cerberus and Saren were cooperating until recently. [/quote]Hm. I liked Feros, but I like this Virmire as well. And if Cerberus is supposed to be a major antagonist...

On the other hand, this new Virmire would make a clear breaking of ties between Saren and Cerberus. Any Council 'they could be working for the Reapers' would be undermined.

[quote]
I was thinking Garrus could get one by appearing a vid talking about some recent accomplishment of his. [/quote]Spectre Garrus makes the news, but would Renegade Garrus be a vigilante?

[quote]Dean_the_Young wrote...

(regarding Jacob) Torfan? Someone once under the Butcher's command?[/quote]

Yes. I was also thinking maybe Kaidan was a survivor from Akuze. What do you think?[/quote]Kaiden is overdoing it. Jacob from Torfan is rather iffy as well: it doesn't lead to him leaving the Alliance for Cerberus. Even if the context changes, his dissatisfaction should remain.

[CptData]

Okay. I said I'll add some stuff for ME2 today, but won't do this.

There's something more important. Something about Characters. Saphra, you pointed at that issue and you are right: some characters can be fused into one, especially "redundant" ones. Most prominent example is Jack vs Samara - they're both biotics, both fill the same role just with different attitudes. That applies even more for Morinth compared to Jack.

Don't feel offended now if I say, most characters are extremes. Either they come with just one or two prominent traits, or they're burdened with dozens. Characters like Zaeed, Grunt or Kasumi are a bit too one-dimensional for example. Liara is the entire opposite - she comes with traits enough to create two fully developed characters. Especially Liara is someone I'd like to "reduce" a bit without killing her character. Lets have archeologist Liara and she has a sister who's working as an intel broker. Make that sister to the SB would work fine and also makes it plausible to have Liara around in ME3.

I'd say most characters with exception of a few (Mordin, for example) need an overhaul. Some of them need an authentic character: Miranda works fine, but the most interesting stuff about her is missing. Does she have any hobbies? What about former lovers? Did she ever felt love? Such stuff. I mean, Ashley talks a lot about herself, her family, her family's past, her love for poems ... that makes her authentic. Miranda and most other characters lack something like this. And that's why the characters should be reviewed if there's any reboot planned. Give them a history, give them tiny flaws, antics and such.

Authentic characters are good characters.