350 réponses à ce sujet

[Yezdigerd]

General User wrote...

Yezdigerd wrote...
I doubt you know anything about the least gory, yet least painful  way to kill a Volus,

I might... 

I will say that point blank exploding rounds that rupture the environment suit of a species that "explodes" on contact with our atmosphere, ain't it.

You might have an opinion but without a source to support it your assertion is meaningless. I doubt the method was used to spare the Volus excessive discomfort, but then again Shepard uses ammunition that turn living people on fire, so I don't think s/he is the one to talk.

Yezdigerd wrote...
and for all we know the choice of weapon could have been Elnora's superiors, not hers. You have no case.

She pulled the trigger, and was happy to do it.

Now you are just moving the posts. You accused her of excessive cruelty and failed to demonstrate it. then claimed that the murder was excessivily gory and lack support for that as well. We have already established that she enjoyed killing the bad guy, so would most Shepards, no need to belabor it.

Zaeed is brutal and ruthless, but he's not a liar and he's not a coward.  You don't have to like someone to respect them.

I guess that is a matter of opinion, I would certainly argue that torture is cowardice as for lying he didn't tell you why he wanted to go to Zorya did he? And you avoid the point I was making, if Elnora merits the death penalty for being a hired killer so does Zaeed. Also since Zaeed always survive when the rest of his team dies, he apparently aren't a guy like you that would die with his buddies in a lost cause as a matter of principle.

Elnora became disenchanted with mercenary life when (and only when) Shepard and Co. went through her mates "like crap through a goose."  Bullies and thugs often don't like it when they run into someone tougher than them, doesn't mean they'll reform.

I find it strange how you claim knowledge of when/if Elnora began having doubts about mercenary life, it's not in the game, I guess you know the script writer?

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 22 novembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[Yezdigerd]

CptData wrote...
Isn't it what she said to Shepard to get out of that situation?
Who believes the liar?

Lying about current events and having second thoughts about mercenary life aren't mutally exclusive. I'm not saying that you should believe her or that Elnora is telling the truth, but she obviously is very young, Paragon Shepard has pretty good reason to expect the Eclipse massacre to make an impression.

Everyone knows the Eclipse are just a bunch of freelancers (best interpretation) or some guns for hire who will take down anyone that got tagged. Elnore should have known this, so there's no way to justify her presence in that group.

tbh, I never understood how the mercenary system works, they are allowed to operate within the confines of Council space legally, yet are considered murders and criminals. If it's know fact that every Eclipse sister comitt a murder as an initiation rite, why would the society tolerate them?

Modifié par Yezdigerd, 22 novembre 2011 - 04:51 .

[Sisterofshane]

I think you're missing the point, Yezdigerd.  The point is NOT whether she was justified in killing the volus, but the manner in which it was done, and her general attitude about it which offends people.

She MURDERED the volus by choice.  You say a RenShep would as well, but I've played both games several times over, and only a handful of situations have presented themselves in which Shep had the choice to off a criminal, and they are usually much worse criminals then just being a drug dealer.  Later on, if you listen closely to the log entry she had made, she clearly expresses a sense of enjoyment in not only the killing method (which she chose SPECIFICALLY because of it's unecessary gory nature), but also in the killing itself.  She believes her friends will be "jealous" that she's made her first kill, viewing it as some sort of trophy.  This belies your statement that she viewed this killing as necessary, or as "justice" being served to the volus.  I don't EVER see RenShep walking around bragging about all of the "kills" he has under his belt.  At most, he uses it as a statement of fact to intimidate others into standing down, so that he can avoid needless killing.

Also, I don't think that RenShep would ever lie about the killing he has done.  He always feels justifed in the path he chooses.  Elnora shot at Shep & Co. with her fellow eclipse mercs, then when it was clear that Shep was winning, she hid, and lied about her connection to the merc gang to suit her own selfish wishes, which would be to live.  She enjoyed being a merc, and killing people, and she LIED about it.  There is no evidence more clear that she was a sociopath then THAT.

Now, the above is all metagaming, because Elnora's journal entry is not available until after the decision to let her go/kill her is made, but I play mostly paragon, but when that choice comes up, I NEVER feel bad about pulling that particular trigger.

[ODST 3]

I execute Elnora every time, no matter how virtuous and heroic I am. I don't want that arrogant little hoe running around blowing away more volus.

I felt bad when I told the Quarians we had no evidence, even though Tali was pretty chill about it.

[General User]

Yezdigerd wrote...
You might have an opinion but without a source to support it your assertion is meaningless. I doubt the method was used to spare the Volus excessive discomfort, but then again Shepard uses ammunition that turn living people on fire, so I don't think s/he is the one to talk.

There's a pretty big difference between the use of incendiary devices on the battlefield and the coldblooded yet gleeful, excessively gory, murder of a person. 

Yezdigerd wrote...
Now you are just moving the posts. You accused her of excessive cruelty and failed to demonstrate it. then claimed that the murder was excessivily gory and lack support for that as well.

It was excessively gory because volus swell and violently rupture when their environment suits are open to human/asari normal atmospheres.  Elnora's glee at that gore is the aspect of cruelty I was refering to.

Yezdigerd wrote...
We have already established that she enjoyed killing the bad guy... no need to belabor it.

Elnora was, at best, a gang member killing a drug dealer.  And, at worst, a vicious killer participating in a ritual murder.  None of that makes her noble in the least.

Yezdigerd wrote...
I guess that is a matter of opinion, I would certainly argue that torture is cowardice as for lying he didn't tell you why he wanted to go to Zorya did he?

Near enough.

Yezdigerd wrote...
And you avoid the point I was making, if Elnora merits the death penalty for being a hired killer so does Zaeed.

Elnora doesn't merit the death penalty just for being a hired killer .  No one does.  There's nothing necessarily illegal or unethical about mercenary work.  The murder she voluntarily committed on the other hand...

Yezdigerd wrote...
Also since Zaeed always survive when the rest of his team dies, he apparently aren't a guy like you that would die with his buddies in a lost cause as a matter of principle.

As a general rule, one should not judge what happened on a battlefield they weren't at.  Take Zaeed's warstories for what they are: warstories.

Yezdigerd wrote...
I find it strange how you claim knowledge of when/if Elnora began having doubts about mercenary life, it's not in the game, I guess you know the script writer?

Elnora was thrilled about being in Eclipse when all it involved was killing people weaker than her and only had her supposed "change of heart" immediately after Team Shepard finished taking apart her "sisters", that much certainly is in the game.

Modifié par General User, 22 novembre 2011 - 07:22 .

[Raizo]

Letting that Asari merc ( I think her name is Elnora ) go during Samara's recruitment mission. I know she's scum but I always let her go and it bugs me every time. Why do I let her go? On my first playthough of ME2 I did not have enough paragon points to resolve the conflict between Miranda and Jack so I had to take sides and Jack ended up dying in the Suicide mission. That experience haunts me on all my other ME2 plathroughs, I feel obligated to ake only paragon choices in order to get the ending I want instead of playing the game the way I want to, needless to say I think the paragon/renegade system in in ME2 is broken.

Letting Mordin destroy Malon's genophage cure. I justfy this decision because I think that Malon wasn't that smart ( at least compared to Mordin ) and that his version of the cure was either flawed or incomplete, then there's Mordin absolute confidence that he could easily make a cure for the genophage if he wanted to ( he did build the modified version of the virus ) so it's not like anyone needded Malon's cure, for all I knw it may make thing sworse for the Krogan. Still it is difficult to make this choice, it is difficult to have faith that thing swill work out for the best for teh Krogan in ME3 when we it looks like they have a solution to the genophage problem in ME2.

Saving the workers in Zaeed's loyalty mission and letting Vido Santiago get away. I don't regret saving innocent lives but I am pissed at the outcome because I no it will backfire on me in ME3, not only have I let one of the biggest scum bags in the ME Universe get away chance are I am going to have to deal with an angry Zaeed in ME3, it would not surprise if Zaed hated my guts and was trying to kill my Shepard when I import him from ME2 to ME3.

The Geth decision. This is ****ing difficult choice. I fail to see how one choice is any better than the other but I always re-write the heretic Geth instead of destroying them. Why do I choose this outcome? Once again, I lean mostly towards the paragon side of things and my first Me2 plathrough has convinced me that I have no choice but choose nothing but paragon choices in order to get the outcome I want, it also seesm like the lesser of two evils, even if it is the Geth equivalent of brain washing.

[sH0tgUn jUliA]

Mordin: I chose a mixed neutral/renegade with him, because after hearing him out on the genophage I tend to agree. He is not Dr. Mengele.

Elnora: always gets a bullet in the a**.

Random Merc: always takes the express elevator.

Parasini: I always did her mission. Anoleis was a self-important a**, and needed to be taken down a peg or three. Parasini was just cool... for a cop, and I find she has the same feeling about skirts that I do in ME2. And she owes me another beer.

Conrad: Okay kicking him in the "quad" was satisfying just because he was the stalker fan, and just to watch the Matriarch's reactions as Conrad told his story was funny as hell. The guy is obviously not the sharpest knife in the drawer. But why does Shepard need to take advantage of that. So I found it rewarding to bust the merchant, and Conrad goes on to help war vets. Cool. Maybe I'll see him in ME3. Just hope that BW doesn't have it default to renegade choice again.

Tali: always gets hugged.

Geth: sometimes I rewrote, sometimes not. I looked at this more like running an anti-virus program. Legion is essentially a legion of geth programs on a single mobile platform.

TIM: "Sacrificing the Soul of our species..." made me cringe. It was more about "I know what you're up to, and given the track record of your organization it will turn into a Charlie Foxtrot that I have to clean up later. I don't have time for that crap."

I didn't really care about how the Paragon choice made me feel. It was more about what made the most sense in the grand scheme. Besides, the Turian who owned the safari tour place was going to name his first born after me.

Shepard doesn't have to be an a**hat the entire time. Just once in a while. I usually end up as Paragade. Just the way things are.

I usually ended up with enough points to resolve the dispute between Jack and Miranda. On my personal "canon" playthrough, I used the renegade dialog to resolve the dispute. I had enough renegade points, but not enough paragon points. (~95% paragon : ~67% renegade)

Modifié par sH0tgUn jUliA, 22 novembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[Malanek]

Nerevar-as wrote...
Besides a few moments I felt naive (Elnora), the worst paragon moment is justifying the death of the Council because it creates opportunities. WTH?

Yeah that's a good one. You could well have choosen to "concentrate on harbinger" as a paragon. Then to come up with that justification (as a charm option to the reporter?) was pretty bad.

[Major_Kong]

There were several times where the paragon path didn't feel right.

1. Sending thousands of Alliance naval personnel to their deaths to save the council. IMO if you tell someone a train is coming and they refuse to get off the tracks then they deserve whatever happens as a consequence for their actions/inaction. Especially since they said the alliance was responsible for the attack on Eden Prime because the Alliance settled in the terminus/traverse.

2. Helping the consort. She made her bed so to speak. It is only right that she sleeps in it.

3. Releasing the Rachni queen. When a species is that violent and agressive and predisposed to mental manipulation, giving them a second chance is a bad idea.

4. In ME2 likewise with the geth heretics.

[PauseforEffect]

[quote]Major_Kong wrote...

There were several times where the paragon path didn't feel right.

1. Sending thousands of Alliance naval personnel to their deaths to save the council. IMO if you tell someone a train is coming and they refuse to get off the tracks then they deserve whatever happens as a consequence for their actions/inaction. Especially since they said the alliance was responsible for the attack on Eden Prime because the Alliance settled in the terminus/traverse.

It's usually the duty of the military to place their lives on the line for the sake of the greater good. Sure the Council was warned several times, but their hesitation to take action was more from caution than personal selfishness. That's why they enabled humanity their own Spectre to be more free to take care of their problem. If for nothing else, people save the Destiny Ascension to protect more lives on that dreadnought and to prevent demoralization of the other races. By keeping everyone united, there would be far less conflict than if you killed off the established heads of power and let whomever climbs to the top struggle to maintain it amongst the rest. It would also free up the Alliance to try to focus on their own problems without obligation to other races as the Council is bound to.
 
2. Helping the consort. She made her bed so to speak. It is only right that she sleeps in it.

Perhaps. But speaking to Septimus at least stops personal, political information from being broadcasted. While one may be inclined to ask, what does that have to do with humanity's problems? I say, how can it hurt to tell a drunk, broken-hearted turian to shape up and shut up. Who knows how much he knows about the Alliance and you can't assassinate him if he's so well-known.

3. Releasing the Rachni queen. When a species is that violent and agressive and predisposed to mental manipulation, giving them a second chance is a bad idea.

How many Rachni encountered have tried to actively make contact? Given that the queen had the chance to manipulate the Asari to hit the release controls while Shepard was looking at the queen, I'd say that warrants pause.

4. In ME2 likewise with the geth heretics.

That one makes me scratch my head on the moral side. If reprogramming them is considered the same as killing them, then why not do it in a way that's useful to our side of the war? We strengthen an ally and gain insight into the ranks of the Reapers' forces. If it's about changing them against their will, there was mention of it being a zero probability that it will be permanently successful and that the risk of the heretics falling back to that same mindset renders that issue redundant as "free will" will still be there. If it's about traumatizing them, Legion repeatedly states that geth do not feel pain or fear as organics do. It's pretty much changing their minds on one decision the way a persuasion check works.
Now if it was about the concern that the geth as a whole will betray all organics, heretical or not, then that's when I can see the worry.

Just my thoughts, yours are valid concerns, but these have pestered me non-stop.

[magelet]

Malanek999 wrote...

magelet wrote...
Not helping Zaeed in his loyalty mission. I can't do it.

You mean you think it is morally wrong to save all the people? Which is the only paragon option I can think of here which doesn't help Zaeed. The only hard part of that is turning down the assault rifle upgrade you would get.

I didn't say morally wrong, I said I can't do it. It is the difference between saving some random people I don't know and helping a comrade while at the same time getting rid of a notably dangerous crime lord (whose people, by the way, have been attacking you throughout the game).

[hawat333]

Oh yes, definitely. There were cases where I simply knew the people responsible will get away if I choose the Paragon path, and there won't be a rightful punishment for their crimes. There are several cases of this, especially in ME1.
And that's why I don't have a fully Paragon playthrough.

[Kalms]

knightnblu wrote...

.... you also arrive at the same conclusion and draw the inference that such a policy must be fiction given that real weapons restrictions have actually increased violent crime wherever they have been implemented anywhere in the world. 

That's just a stupid, uneducated remark. Take Denmark for instance: Here we have one of the most strict weapon laws in the world, and crime related to firearms or stabbing is rare. Very rare. So stop generalizing when you clearly have no clue what you're talking about.

[Brohammed]

AdmiralCheez wrote...
2. Rewriting the geth. Mass murder and mass mind control are both ugly, and every time, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing.

This is probably why I think this was my favourite choice in the games.

[xxSgt_Reed_24xx]

Nah, but then again... I usually pick the renegade response...

I always tell Mordin he did the right thing and I always let Zaeed kill that bastard Vido.

[RamirezWolfen]

The Geth heretic station. As someone once said, "It is better to die upon your feet than live upon your knees!"

In other words, I disagree with the mind control and just destroy them.

[Harmless Citizen]

I never play full paragon, so no, not really.

1. Khalisah Bint Sinan al-Jilani was impressed by Shep's answers in ME1, so she gets a paragon verbal smack down in ME2.
2. Neutral response for the genophage question, because even though the krogan weaponisation was demonstrably idiotic, the rebellion countermeasure is far more complex.
3. Still, I always keep Mordin from killing Maleon, and preserve the cure data.
4. Push the merc out the window. I have no good reason for this other than that it's funny and he just spent an evening slaughtering helpless workers.
5. Let Elnora go the first time, but after finding her journal, she gets capped in all subsequent playthroughs.
6. Infect the geth. If my choices are between destroying them or gaining possible allies, I choose the latter. This will likely bite me in the arse later.
7. Save the factory workers and give Zaeed a verbal hoslap. Killing Vido would only be a minor setback for an organisation so massive. Not worth it.

[Harmless Citizen]

8. Nuke collector base. Too much chance of indoctrination or abuse. Also because screw TIM. The fact that it was a lab of horrors is a bonus.

[ZLurps]

Not shooting the Exogeni guy in ME, that one was difficult. Then Shepard's facial expression for paragon solution and how Ashley later said how it was creepy made it fun overall.

[Xerxes52]

Only two things:

1. Jumping on Mordin's butt on the genophage every time it's brought up. He did the best he could, even if it wasn't what we would consider a "nice" outcome.

2. Sparing Elnora, but only after I heard the journal entry. Although in my Paragon playthroughs I still spare her, because while "I" know that she's an evil merc, "Paragon Shep" doesn't.

[MBRKO]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

I felt bad paragoning it a couple times, yeah.

1. Talking to Mordin about the genophage. Shepard seemed unnecessarily mean and didn't try to understand Mordin at all.

2. Rewriting the geth. Mass murder and mass mind control are both ugly, and every time, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing.

Feel the exact same way about rewriting the geth to. I always felt uneasy that I was makeing a bad mistake form the get go. And my talk with Mordin about the Genophage was awakward because I felt I was being mean then I really needed to be.

Modifié par MBRKO, 24 janvier 2012 - 11:56 .

[Darkfoxz87]

The one and only choice I felt bad about as a Paragon was the destuction of the Collecter base.

That was a hard choice.

Either destroy the base, give a big "F#&K You" to the Illusive Man and have countless lives lost over nothing.

Or save the base, have a big smile with the Illusive Man, and have deaths of those mean something.

[Jestina]

I think the more correct wording for the two sides would be nice and ass. The renegade side is more about being a jerk than anything else.

[KotorEffect3]

Paragon choices? No
Now some paragon dialogs is a different story such as Mordin's loyalty mission. I prefer how neutral Shepard sounds on that one. There is only one major paragon choice that I don't agree with and that is rewriting the geth, sounds too much like indoctrination/mind control. Better to just blow up the heretics in my opinion.

[LaurenShepard-N7]

Saving the council felt wrong because they were asses to Shepard all the way along. Ahh yes "Reapers"...

I also didn't really want to save the Rachni Queen, because I think the universe could do without a race of giant spiders...