350 réponses à ce sujet

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Vegos wrote...

Even Renegades have one.

There is a difference. A Renegade things about effects of their actions on others where as a Paragon only thinks about how the action makes themselves feel.

This is a classic left/right minded trope.  Neither side is humane or just, both sides of the argument are evil/selfish/purile/childish/shortsighted if you believe the other side.

[pfhorlorn]

Vegos wrote...

What game are you playing? Most ceirtainly not Mass Effect.

How droll.

Anyway, my descriptions may not be accurate as I'm both tired and caffeinated, but my point remains. Uh, what was my point? Oh yeah, what the guy above me's saying.

basically going extreme to either side doesn't require any thought; you could give it thought though

Modifié par koopaonfire, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:29 .

[Drone223]

Paragon: Too trusting
Renegade: Solve everything with a gun

Both extreme's are flawed

Modifié par Drone223, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:31 .

[Vegos]

koopaonfire wrote...
Anyway, my descriptions may not be accurate as I'm both tired and caffeinated, but my point remains. Uh, what was my point?

Well yes, exactly.

As I said, sometimes the paragon choice is pistol whipping someone or telling them they better not hope you'll hesitate to shoot a hostage if that's what it takes; and sometimes the renegade choice is going "GET A HOLD OF YOURSELF MAN!" or headbutting a very annoying krogan.

[wizardryforever]

Well for the most part I felt like the Paragon choices on Mordin's mission were just the "painful truth" that Mordin was trying to not see.  Shepard comes across as a bit overly confrontational, but it's somewhat deserved, in my opinion.  That said, there are a few options that are too antagonistic in that mission.  There's even one that blames the genophage for the state of Tuchanka.  Luckily, that's an optional "investigate" option, and thus avoidable.  I don't think any of those choices made me feel bad, more like "that's not how I would have put it, but essentially, yes."

I'm trying to think of any of the Paragon choices that actually made me feel bad for choosing it.  Hmm. . . Probably the closest I got was on Jacob's loyalty mission with the decision of what to do with his father.  Simply having him arrested (the Paragon option) just doesn't seem like a fair punishment for what he's done, nor does shooting him (the Renegade option).  So I pretty much always pick the neutral option, leaving him to reap what he has sown.

By contrast, there are many, many, Renegade choices that make me feel bad for taking them.

[Xilizhra]

Once. I'm not entirely happy with some of the dialogue in Mordin's loyalty mission. However, I have no qualms about rewriting the geth.

[Vegos]

wizardryforever wrote...

Well for the most part I felt like the Paragon choices on Mordin's mission were just the "painful truth" that Mordin was trying to not see.

Oh, he saw it alright, and he lives with the guilt of knowing it. It's more akin to cutting old wounds open.

[pfhorlorn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

No I suppose it isn't mandated but it is what every Renegade should do and what any Spectre (or someone in Shepard's position) should do. Paragon Shepard generally only thinks about maintaining his own personal code regardless of who will be made to pay for it.

That's inconsistent with some choices though, like the Feros one. Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you not get renegade points for killing the colonists? It doesn't really make anyone pay in any negative way if you bash them over the head / gas them, though (except by maybe giving them a concussion, but that's preferable to death, I think).

[Celtic Latino]

I wouldn't say it 'hurt'' me exactly but the paragon dialogue in the beginning when talking with the Illusive Man came more off as renegade. 'You have to earn the right to ask me those questions...,' while renegades sound friendly 'I'm alright, I feel good'. I know Paragons don't trust Cerberus (and neither do many Renegades) but it's almost like an alignment swap considering most Paragon dialogue is nice to the bad guys.

The ones that do hurt:
-I agree with many about sounding too harsh on Mordin regarding the genophage. It was a necessary evil that counteracted the krogan taking over the galaxy and potentially becoming as dangerous as the rachni were.
-Being paragon to Kaira Sterling on Noveria. 'You have me at a disadvantage Miss...?' Pretending to play stupid and gentle(wo)manly to someone whose out to get you any which way she can...even Paragon Shep likely isn't *that* stupid.
-Sparing the Rachni. They're dangerous no matter which way you put them. I have a feeling that's going to be a choice even the most idealistic Paragon will regret come ME3.

[wizardryforever]

Vegos wrote...

wizardryforever wrote...

Well for the most part I felt like the Paragon choices on Mordin's mission were just the "painful truth" that Mordin was trying to not see.

Oh, he saw it alright, and he lives with the guilt of knowing it. It's more akin to cutting old wounds open.

Like I said, he was trying to not see it.  He tried rationalizing it all away, but was only partially successful, since he still felt some guilt at what he had done.  It was like Shepard was forcing him to acknowledge the ramifications of his actions, rather than let him go on believing his platitudes.  Harsh, yes, but, IMO, necessary.

[Vegos]

Feros could be easily solved if you simply got no points either way if you killed a colonist after you ran out of grenades. So as lon as you have them, you use them, try to not kill the folks (paragon); or you just kill the folks, screw them (renegade); and if you run out of them, you kill them out of self-preservation (human).

Modifié par Vegos, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:44 .

[pfhorlorn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

The Feros choice isn't very well felshed out in the first place. Why exactly it is Shepard would consider not using the grenades isn't explicitly stated. I can imagine any number of reasons to explain it, but alas, that's just me.

I think this basically boils down to: "Why do we have a morals system in an action RPG space opera?" After all, it's not like your skin's turning gray and flaking, nor is your "Dark Side" aura growing red with ange-- oh what? The cybernetics in ME2? Remember kids, "evil" is red!

In all seriousness, the paragon/renegade system annoys me. We're stuck with it for Shepard's arc, though.

Vegos wrote...

Feros could be easily solved if you simply
got no points either way if you killed a colonist after you ran out of
grenades. So as logn as you have them, you use the, try to not kill the
folks (paragon) and if you run out of them, you kill them out of
self-preservation (human).

By the way, you can bash the colonists over the head if you run out of grenades. Not that it seems logical from a real world perspective, but hey, shields.

Modifié par koopaonfire, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:43 .

[Yuoaman]

Not really - I felt a little bad about the Paragon conversation choices in regards to Mordin and the genophage, but I've started running it as Shepard initially being pissed off but later coming to understand Mordin's position a little better - since that's what happened to me.

[BluSoldier]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

 Rewriting the geth. Mass murder and mass mind control are both ugly, and every time, I'm not sure I'm doing the right thing.

This might be the only thing in the game I go renegade for.  Blowing them up always seemd like the most moral thing to me.  I would rather be killed then brain-raped.

[Vegos]

koopaonfire wrote...
By the way, you can bash the colonists over the head if you run out of grenades. Not that it seems logical from a real world perspective, but hey, shields.

In-universe, going into point-blank range of someone renders your shields moot because of the properties of kinetic barriers. So no, won't fly.

[Drone223]

The choice about the heritic (sp) geth was more of a "pick your poison" choice rather than a P/R one, neither one was really good, should have been done netural of alignment  

[pfhorlorn]

Saphra Deden wrote...

I could certainly do without although my Shepard would be almost totally Renegade anyway. He only has 22 Paragon points going into ME2.

Even so, stripping the system and actually writing out what the specific dialogue lines are on the wheel (as opposed to summarizing) could both contribute to something I've inferred you consider imperative: people actually thinking about what they're choosing.

Vegos wrote...

In-universe, going into point-blank range of someone renders your shields moot because of the properties of kinetic barriers. So no, won't fly.

What, some meager colonist is going to punch Shepard? Shepard headbutted a krogan; you said it yourself!

Modifié par koopaonfire, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:47 .

[Vegos]

koopaonfire wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

I could certainly do without although my Shepard would be almost totally Renegade anyway. He only has 22 Paragon points going into ME2.

Even so, stripping the system and actually writing out what the specific dialogue lines are on the wheel (as opposed to summarizing) could both contribute to something I've inferred you consider imperative: people actually thinking about what they're choosing.

The position on the wheel itself gives away just what each option is leaning towards.

[Vegos]

koopaonfire wrote...

What, some meager colonist is going to punch Shepard? Shepard headbutted a krogan; you said it yourself!

No, some meager colonist just might shoot Shepard. Shields don't work in point-blank, but firearms do!

Modifié par Vegos, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:49 .

[pfhorlorn]

Vegos wrote...

The position on the wheel itself gives away just what each option is leaning towards.

I was going to include this in my post originally but couldn't word it in: "also randomizing what goes where on the wheel."

And as to the colonist argument: in-universe, then (since we're clearly not talking about game mechanics), shouldn't Shepard's squad be able to carry grenades of their own in addition to the handful Shepard can? I conjecture that the situation of being up close and personal wouldn't happen.

Saphra Deden wrote...

You know there is a trick I discovered to using the dialogue wheel. The description text is a description not of what Shepard will say, but of what he is thinking. Keep that in mind when you play and you'll have an easier time with new dialogue choices in the future.

Oh no, I realized that. It still can be mucky though.

For example, the dialogue in the Cerberus shuttle after escaping the Lazarus station: one of the lines is like telling Jacob and Miranda to get bent or something, that part of Shepard's history is off-limits, and Meer/Hale flatly say, "We should move on."

When I think something opinionated like, "I'm gonna punch you if you don't cut this crap out," I don't typically say, "We should do something else."

Modifié par koopaonfire, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:54 .