350 réponses à ce sujet

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Nashiktal wrote...

It's a lose lose either way in my opinion. Either you kill vito and lose everyone in the factory (in which case I  firmly believe the batarian guy will take over and be just as bad if not worse) or you save the factory workers and vito gets away. (in which case vito continues on being bad)

Either way its bad.

You sacrifice the workers or you sacrifice Zaeed, and sacrificing Zaee will harm your mission to stop the Collectors which ultimately endangers a lot more people than just those workers.

Wait, what am I saying?

Power of Paragon.

Zaeed is a loose cannon at this point in the story.  If I were a squad leader, I don't care how good a trooper he was, I wouldn't want him in my squad because he would endanger the mission for his own goals constantly...and paragon Shep makes exactly the same point.  It's also  a leadership issue.  If you go along with Zaeed, he (Zaeed) thinks he can walk all over you at any future point which is just as bad (a point Kasumi makes if you talk with her afterwards).

-Polaris

[didymos1120]

Arijharn wrote...

Modern medicine owes a lot to n a z i science experiments. Here's to name a few:

a) The Hyppocratic Oath

Named for Hippocrates.  Originally written in the 5th Century....BCE. It has been in use in one form or another ever since.

Defibrillator's

First invented in 1899..by a couple of Swiss dudes.  The first human use was post-WWII, in the US.

c) Hypotherma etc, etc.

The hypothermia experiments are the only widely-acknowledged contribution of N^azi medical experimentation to modern knowledge, and even then, they're still problematic because the subjects were a bunch of very poorly-treated prisoners.  Most of it was not simply cruel, but sloppily done and scientifically worthless. The notion that they made great contributions to medical knowledge is a myth.

Modifié par didymos1120, 11 novembre 2011 - 06:14 .

[Arijharn]

didymos1120 wrote...

Named for Hippocrates.  Originally written in the 5th Century....BCE. It has been in use in one form or another ever since.

While you may be right, I'm talking about the aftermath of the Nuremberg trials that led to the enforced establishment of set of medical ethics, led primarily by the aforementioned Hippocratic Oath, but it also has ethical standards set from Christian and Jewish morality.

didymos1120 wrote...
First invented in 1899..by a couple of Swiss dudes.  The first human use was post-WWII, in the US.

I'm willing to concede this because I can't find anything to back my position up. Although, having said that I'm positive I've read it somewhere (and actually in print and not in some crazy story). Alas. 

didymos1120 wrote...
The hypothermia experiments are the only widely-acknowledged contribution of N^azi medical experimentation to modern knowledge, and even then, they're still problematic because the subjects were a bunch of very poorly-treated prisoners.  Most of it was not simply cruel, but sloppily done and scientifically worthless. The notion that they made great contributions to medical knowledge is a myth.

Um, it isn't that worthless. The luftwaffe funded it because they were obviously planning attacks against Europe, specifically the British Isles in which they had to fly over Channel (and that's the most direct route). It wasn't just about studying how long it took to kill someone, it was also studying various rewarming techniques and their effectiveness.

Anyway, history lesson over imo.

[MysticSpace]

Vegos wrote...

Medhia Nox wrote...

Lying for Tali during the tribunal - I "think" lying is the paragon option.

Actually, nothing you said was a lie. The "no evidence" option ended up with you saying "There is no evidence we wish to present". And that was true. Whether you had something or not, you did not wish to present it.

That trick worked in the fifth Phoenix Wright case.

[MysticSpace]

Nashiktal wrote.../quote]

Don't forget its not just changing a perspective, its brainwashing. You are FORCING the heretics to accept the geth's logic by changing how they think.

Its like this. One day without any warning something big happens to you. You are either killed entirely, or you are brainwashed to accept someone elses point of view. That point of view could be anything. Maybe its a society where everyone accepts slavery as normal like the batarrians, maybe the logic is that you have to kill the person closest to you, maybe the logic is to fight against your very own gods.

No you don't have a choice, someone chooses FOR YOU. It doesn't matter what you prefer, it doesnt matter if you don't like it, someone chooses to either kill you and your people or to change how you think to something that ISN'T YOU.

No matter what happens at the end of the choice, you are gone. Gaby5 no longer exists. Admiral Cheeze no longer exists. Blusoldier no longer exists. Nashiktal no longer exists. You are either dead, or someone else. Hell legion explains that in geth terms perspectives are sacred and that he/they wouldn't even be considering this if not for the stakes at hand.

It is one of the few points of ME2 that fit into ME1's theme. Free will and choice, and the heretics get neither.

True, but the Heretics are the ones who are going to brainwash the true geth into accepting their viewpoint with the virus in the first place.  All's fair in love and war and turn about is fair play.

[Eveninglost]

Rojahar wrote...

Sometimes in ME2, Paragon came off like a total jerk, which I thought was Renegade's job. With Mordin, for example, when he's confessing about his involvement in the genophage, the Paragon options are more or less calling him a monster.

I agree with you even though I agree with the paragon opinion. Shepard came off as an ass. Still the neutral option was no discussion whatsoever, so either agree or disagree. 

There are no paragon options that made me feel bad, but there are a few that I felt were not the right choice. 

[Purge the heathens]

I've always played Paragon, but on Mordin's loyalty mission, I had the impression that Paragon Shepard couldn't make up his/her mind. For his work on the genophage, Mordin gets called a murderer, but what does Shepard say when saving Maelon? "You're not a murderer."

MysticSpace wrote...

All's fair in love and war and turn about is fair play.

Is it fair to use hand grenades in love? Just curious.

Modifié par Purge the heathens, 20 novembre 2011 - 11:29 .

[naledgeborn]

I like balanced playthroughs. I have a couple of extremist PCs but my canons are usually "Moderate Renegades" or Chaotic Good/Neutrals. Being good or evil for goodness' or evil's sake is a pretty lame way to role play a protagonist, especially when BioWare's writers are at their best.

Modifié par naledgeborn, 20 novembre 2011 - 11:26 .

[Gorosaur]

My Shepard's pretty much a Paragon idealist. He tries to do the right thing, and he normally doesn't feel bad about it. However, he has taken some big risks and he has worried about them sometimes.

[DonutsDealer]

naledgeborn wrote...

I like balanced playthroughs. I have a couple of extremist PCs but my canons are usually "Moderate Renegades" or Chaotic Good/Neutrals. Being good or evil for goodness' or evil's sake is a pretty lame way to role play a protagonist, especially when BioWare's writers are at their best.

I like this human, he understand. I find the neutral Shepard the best to play, you don't think about the blue and red bar, you think about consecuences, consider the situation and then decide. I find it rewarding even if it backfires later, because I took that decision considering my own morality

The paragon choices that make me feel bad every time I choose them are the rachni queen and the heretics. The queen because I can't trust bugs who sing and the heretics because, well, they killed Kaidan, Jenkins and I don't trust Legion with his non-zero probability of them turning against us.

[Dean_the_Young]

Purge the heathens wrote...

I've always played Paragon, but on Mordin's loyalty mission, I had the impression that Paragon Shepard couldn't make up his/her mind. For his work on the genophage, Mordin gets called a murderer, but what does Shepard say when saving Maelon? "You're not a murderer."

You know what would have been more immersive than a interrupt sequence?


If you spent the time (Paragon) calling Mordina a murderer for the genophage, he shoots Maleon and accepts the label.

If you spent the time (Renegade) telling him it was right and moral, he doesn't because he isn't a murderer.


No interrupt. But Consequences to Choices that you Didn't Realize do apply.

MysticSpace wrote...

All's fair in love and war and turn about is fair play.

Is it fair to use hand grenades in love? Just curious.

If it's a Love-Love grenade.

[General User]

The paragon choice I just can't stand? Letting Maelon go. He's an insane black market bioweapons expert with completely wacked-out morals and ethics, he's going to do nothing besides hurt people if he's allowed to walk.

[SirBoomstick]

"Blue Rose of Illium"

[Labrev]

General User wrote...

The paragon choice I just can't stand? Letting Maelon go. He's an insane black market bioweapons expert with completely wacked-out morals and ethics, he's going to do nothing besides hurt people if he's allowed to walk.

Maelon can't even defend his life against Mordin without panicing as he pathetically gets the pistol punched out of his hand. Maelon had krogan aid to do what he did.

JMO, but I highly doubt the kid who Mordin didn't even think had a backbone is some kind of murderous thug.

Even the horrible things he did was with the intent of helping cure the krogan people. It's justified to let Mordin kill him, but a second-chance may also do him some good. Mordin says that himself.

[Xilizhra]

You know what would have been more immersive than a interrupt sequence?


If you spent the time (Paragon) calling Mordina a murderer for the genophage, he shoots Maleon and accepts the label.

If you spent the time (Renegade) telling him it was right and moral, he doesn't because he isn't a murderer.

It's just as reasonable, if not moreso, that Mordin decides he doesn't want to be a murderer at this point in time with Paragon responses.

[Ofcoursenot]

The worst I've felt after making a paragon choice was sparing the Terrorist's leader in Bring down the sky.

I hate batarians....

That, and sparing Dr. Heart/Saleon, although I can't remember if letting him live was paragon or neutral. I was only regretting it because he just tries to fight you anyway....

Modifié par Ofcoursenot, 20 novembre 2011 - 06:52 .

[Shad Croly]

Doctor Moustache wrote...

I don't lock myself into strict paragon.  I just play natural to myself and that ends up being paragon probably 90% of the time.  But I don't really consider creative ways of killing bad guys to be an "evil" thing.  Its just smart tactics.  Yeah maybe a guy being electrocuted to death by a sodering tool jamed in his spine is cruel and unusual punishment, but end of the day hes still dead if its that or a bullet to the face.  If that diserves renegade points, then every single kill you make should net you some.  The more painful the death, the more renegade it is.  But **** that, the karma system would be completely broken in that case. 

So yeah, the paragon angel of humanity sometimes gets his hands dirty, thats just part of the job discription.  At least I don't go around punching jerk reporters in the face. I destroy them with logic.

I completely agree with this, and would agree with this in practice if I could make some Renegade options without missing the chance to keep Zaeed loyal through the Paragon path (because I want the heavy ammo upgrade) and settle the Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion arguments without picking a side (wish I knew how the imported Paragon and Renegade points from ME1 effected the success of charm and intimidate in ME2).

[General User]

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

General User wrote...

The paragon choice I just can't stand? Letting Maelon go. He's an insane black market bioweapons expert with completely wacked-out morals and ethics, he's going to do nothing besides hurt people if he's allowed to walk.

Maelon can't even defend his life against Mordin without panicing as he pathetically gets the pistol punched out of his hand. Maelon had krogan aid to do what he did.

JMO, but I highly doubt the kid who Mordin didn't even think had a backbone is some kind of murderous thug.

Even the horrible things he did was with the intent of helping cure the krogan people. It's justified to let Mordin kill him, but a second-chance may also do him some good. Mordin says that himself.

A gun can kill a man, but the weapons in Maelon's head could kill a planet (or more).

[Ofcoursenot]

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

General User wrote...

The paragon choice I just can't stand? Letting Maelon go. He's an insane black market bioweapons expert with completely wacked-out morals and ethics, he's going to do nothing besides hurt people if he's allowed to walk.

Maelon can't even defend his life against Mordin without panicing as he pathetically gets the pistol punched out of his hand. Maelon had krogan aid to do what he did.

JMO, but I highly doubt the kid who Mordin didn't even think had a backbone is some kind of murderous thug.

Even the horrible things he did was with the intent of helping cure the krogan people. It's justified to let Mordin kill him, but a second-chance may also do him some good. Mordin says that himself.

A gun can kill a man, but the weapons in Maelon's head could kill a planet (or more).

People, please.... he was trying to  stop the Genophage, not pull a bin Laden...

[John Renegade]

Ofcoursenot wrote...

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

General User wrote...

The paragon choice I just can't stand? Letting Maelon go. He's an insane black market bioweapons expert with completely wacked-out morals and ethics, he's going to do nothing besides hurt people if he's allowed to walk.

Maelon can't even defend his life against Mordin without panicing as he pathetically gets the pistol punched out of his hand. Maelon had krogan aid to do what he did.

JMO, but I highly doubt the kid who Mordin didn't even think had a backbone is some kind of murderous thug.

Even the horrible things he did was with the intent of helping cure the krogan people. It's justified to let Mordin kill him, but a second-chance may also do him some good. Mordin says that himself.

A gun can kill a man, but the weapons in Maelon's head could kill a planet (or more).

People, please.... he was trying to  stop the Genophage, not pull a bin Laden...

To be honest, krogan not kept under control are similar to a bioweapon, which can by itself travel between planets, so...

[General User]

Ofcoursenot wrote...

General User wrote...

Hah Yes Reapers wrote...

General User wrote...

The
paragon choice I just can't stand? Letting Maelon go. He's an insane
black market bioweapons expert with completely wacked-out morals and
ethics, he's going to do nothing besides hurt people if he's allowed to
walk.

Maelon can't even defend his life against Mordin
without panicing as he pathetically gets the pistol punched out of his
hand. Maelon had krogan aid to do what he did.

JMO, but I highly doubt the kid who Mordin didn't even think had a backbone is some kind of murderous thug.

Even
the horrible things he did was with the intent of helping cure the
krogan people. It's justified to let Mordin kill him, but a
second-chance may also do him some good. Mordin says that
himself.

A gun can kill a man, but the weapons in Maelon's head
could kill a planet (or more).

People, please.... he was trying to  stop the Genophage, not pull a bin Laden...

As Yoda (God rest his Force-ghost) taught us, there is no "try."

Modifié par General User, 20 novembre 2011 - 07:26 .