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[Xilizhra]

Obviously, many, many people have questioned why Horizon went down the way it did. There are many reasons given, ranging from "the VS is a douchebag" to "Shepard is an idiot" and... well, oftentimes it seems not much in between. However, I have another theory as to why this may be, and for it, we look at Tali.

Compare and contrast Tali and the VS. They're both very loyal to specific organizations and whom they see as their "people." Both of those people have had vicious encounters with Cerberus. And yet, the reactions that Tali and the VS have are markedly different. Of course, neither one joins Shepard immediately upon meeting her, but the VS will never do so or, seemingly, even want to. In fact, without romancing them, they make no attempt at rapproachment whatsoever. Why is this? Well, numerous reasons, but the one I'm going to focus on here is that Tali and the VS were loyal to Shepard for completely different reasons.

Tali's loyalty to Shepard is 100% personal. They exist in completely different, and largely unfriendly, organizations. Their meeting is entirely serendipitous, and the mission they embark on together is completely out of left field as far as typical galactic events go. And thus, through these circumstances, Shepard and Tali form a bond composed solely of respect and, hopefully, friendship. Tali fights with Shepard because she wants to, because she feels it's the right thing to do for the right reasons, and with the right means and commander. Tali chooses loyalty without obligation. And that, in the end, is it.

This is not the case with the VS. Both of them are in the Alliance, Shepard's own military organization... and both are subordinates. When militarily assigned to the Normandy, they have to be there and have to follow Shepard's orders; they can do nothing else without being court-martialed.  And they do this because they're loyal to the Alliance above all else. Now, certainly they're loyal to Shepard as a person as well; they look up to Shepard as an excellent commander. But this is just good fortune; even if they hated Shepard, they'd have to follow her. Their loyalty is based primarily on a sense of factional obligation, and it's through that paradigm that the relationship takes place.

Now, if we add romance to the mix, things become murkier, which is really exactly why militaries don't allow this sort of thing. Then, some of the loyalty becomes personal, but not enough to override the bonds of duty: both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to allow this to happen, and still see things within that militaristic paradigm.

And this paradigm is exactly what cannot exist in Mass Effect 2. When that hits, the VS' previous relationship with Shepard, unless romanced, is utterly obliterated. Aside from some shared experiences in saving the galaxy, there's nothing left. The bonds of obligation are broken and Shepard is now seen as one of The Enemy; in a sad arrangement, both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to view Shepard any other way. Even if there is romance, and thus added to the mixture a substantial amount of personal loyalty, it simply clashes with the broken professional obligation and perhaps makes things even worse. Regardless, the result is disastrous and could probably have never been anything else.

So come Mass Effect 3... in an ironic twist, the VS, the surviving squadmate who was with Shepard the earliest, is also the squadmate least close to Shepard... I daresay even if there was a romance. Every other squadmate was loyal to Shepard for personal reasons; Jacob and Miranda may have blurred it with Cerberus, but Shepard was never really a member of Cerberus, and given the dissolution of Cerberus as a possibly friendly organization, factional obligation isn't really a problem anymore anyway. Everyone else agreed to work with Shepard for their own personal reasons, and became loyal to Shepard, personally, for personal reasons. And with factions breaking, fading, and backstabbing their own members, personal loyalty is the type of loyalty that would seem to be the most solid. Thus, the VS has, through no real fault of their own, fallen into a dark shadow in the path that Shepard takes, and is probably the squadmate most likely to be torn by conflicting loyalties... and all we can do is hope that they're not simply torn to shreds.

[AdmiralCheez]

Really thoughtful analysis, Xil. I never would have approached it from that angle.

Although I'd say Zaeed is a little less personally loyal as well. Ultimately, he did it for the money, and even if Shepard helped him, it was part of his original contract, anyway.

[Drone223]

VS haters in 3....2....1

[Xilizhra]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

Really thoughtful analysis, Xil. I never would have approached it from that angle.

Although I'd say Zaeed is a little less personally loyal as well. Ultimately, he did it for the money, and even if Shepard helped him, it was part of his original contract, anyway.

Fair enough, Zaeed too. I just wasn't thinking about him when I was making this.

[DiebytheSword]

Very thoughtful analysis indeed. I would add that there is the additional onus that TIM interfered in the VS relationship with Shepard by leaking information to Alliance ears that Shepard was working for Cerberus. Tali's people see Shepard with Cerberus, but Tali had no time to stew over that, neither did Garrus.

Thus, I look at Horizon as a result of misinformation spread by TIM as much as a feeling of betrayal/Shep being unable to defuse that situation.

[Xilizhra]

DiebytheSword wrote...

Very thoughtful analysis indeed. I would add that there is the additional onus that TIM interfered in the VS relationship with Shepard by leaking information to Alliance ears that Shepard was working for Cerberus. Tali's people see Shepard with Cerberus, but Tali had no time to stew over that, neither did Garrus.

Thus, I look at Horizon as a result of misinformation spread by TIM as much as a feeling of betrayal/Shep being unable to defuse that situation.

True enough. However, I believe that that information was much more damaging delivered to the VS than it would have been to Garrus or Tali.

[ADLegend21]

You're not accouting for the huge crush Tali harbors for Shepard automatically, or for the VS being Sheaprd's lover. besides the fact that Horizon and the vS reaction were a game mechanic to keep them off the "everyone can die!" suicide missionto be alive for ME3 you're also fogetting that Tali's father is an admiral and is the one who approves her transfer request to be on the Normandy which he DOESN'T know is a Ceberus Ship. The Alliance KNOWS Shepard's ship has a cebrrus crew and that they're working with them so the VS qould ahve to commit treason. Also if you pick the paragon option asking them why theysound sangry they say they would have followed you anywhere since it seems apparent you faked your death. So it's not just a professional loyalty to Shepard as you say. this is anoher one of those "Tali and Garrus are better than the VS" threads it looks like.

[Ryzaki]

...the Quarians do know it's a Cerberus ship. It's why they won't tell her certain things because the channels aren't secure.

[Saaziel]

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, if we add romance to the mix, things become murkier, which is really exactly why militaries don't allow this sort of thing. Then, some of the loyalty becomes personal, but not enough to override the bonds of duty: both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to allow this to happen, and still see things within that militaristic paradigm.

I agree. That said , it could have been explored better in the dialogue.

And to the extent that this was the issue , being duty-bound sounds more like Ash than Raiden .

Modifié par Saaziel, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[AdmiralCheez]

@ADLegend21: Why is it when anyone compares the VS to someone else, you assume it's a hate thread?

The point was that Ashley and Kaidan are professionals and soldiers first, everything else later.  That's not a bad thing.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:32 .

[syllogi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Obviously, many, many people have questioned why Horizon went down the way it did. There are many reasons given, ranging from "the VS is a douchebag" to "Shepard is an idiot" and... well, oftentimes it seems not much in between. However, I have another theory as to why this may be, and for it, we look at Tali.

Compare and contrast Tali and the VS. They're both very loyal to specific organizations and whom they see as their "people." Both of those people have had vicious encounters with Cerberus. And yet, the reactions that Tali and the VS have are markedly different. Of course, neither one joins Shepard immediately upon meeting her, but the VS will never do so or, seemingly, even want to. In fact, without romancing them, they make no attempt at rapproachment whatsoever. Why is this? Well, numerous reasons, but the one I'm going to focus on here is that Tali and the VS were loyal to Shepard for completely different reasons.

Tali's loyalty to Shepard is 100% personal. They exist in completely different, and largely unfriendly, organizations. Their meeting is entirely serendipitous, and the mission they embark on together is completely out of left field as far as typical galactic events go. And thus, through these circumstances, Shepard and Tali form a bond composed solely of respect and, hopefully, friendship. Tali fights with Shepard because she wants to, because she feels it's the right thing to do for the right reasons, and with the right means and commander. Tali chooses loyalty without obligation. And that, in the end, is it.

Except if you don't feel obligated to lie for her in the Quarian court.  Then she's not loyal.  At all.

[JeffZero]

Saaziel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, if we add romance to the mix, things become murkier, which is really exactly why militaries don't allow this sort of thing. Then, some of the loyalty becomes personal, but not enough to override the bonds of duty: both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to allow this to happen, and still see things within that militaristic paradigm.

I agree. That said , it could have been explored better in the dialogue.

And to the extent this was the issue , being duty-bound sounds more like Ash than Raiden .

Raiden... XD

Anyhow, terrific analysis.

[jeweledleah]

Saaziel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, if we add romance to the mix, things become murkier, which is really exactly why militaries don't allow this sort of thing. Then, some of the loyalty becomes personal, but not enough to override the bonds of duty: both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to allow this to happen, and still see things within that militaristic paradigm.

I agree. That said , it could have been explored better in the dialogue.

And to the extent this was the issue , being duty-bound sounds more like Ash than Raiden .

if you mean Kaidan, actualy - he's very much about duty.  even when you romance him, he says before Ilos to Shepard  that "it cannot change anything, loyalty to alliance comes first - its a good crew, the best he's ever served with, he woudln't want to ruin it"  duty is very much in character for Kaidan.

wha'ts not in character for kaidan are snap judgements.  if he were more incharacter on Horizon, he would have stayed longer, asked more questions.  but  /shrug. 

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:35 .

[syllogi]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Obviously, many, many people have questioned why Horizon went down the way it did. There are many reasons given, ranging from "the VS is a douchebag" to "Shepard is an idiot" and... well, oftentimes it seems not much in between. However, I have another theory as to why this may be, and for it, we look at Tali.

Compare and contrast Tali and the VS. They're both very loyal to specific organizations and whom they see as their "people." Both of those people have had vicious encounters with Cerberus. And yet, the reactions that Tali and the VS have are markedly different. Of course, neither one joins Shepard immediately upon meeting her, but the VS will never do so or, seemingly, even want to. In fact, without romancing them, they make no attempt at rapproachment whatsoever. Why is this? Well, numerous reasons, but the one I'm going to focus on here is that Tali and the VS were loyal to Shepard for completely different reasons.

Tali's loyalty to Shepard is 100% personal. They exist in completely different, and largely unfriendly, organizations. Their meeting is entirely serendipitous, and the mission they embark on together is completely out of left field as far as typical galactic events go. And thus, through these circumstances, Shepard and Tali form a bond composed solely of respect and, hopefully, friendship. Tali fights with Shepard because she wants to, because she feels it's the right thing to do for the right reasons, and with the right means and commander. Tali chooses loyalty without obligation. And that, in the end, is it.

Except if you don't feel obligated to lie for her in the Quarian court.  Then she's not loyal.  At all.

Yeah, people tend to do that when you betray their trust.

Xilizhra's premise is that Tali is always loyal.  She's not.  There is a price to her friendship and loyalty.  Which is fine, but it's disingenous to gloss over that fact.

[ADLegend21]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@ADLegend21: Why is it when anyone compares the VS to someone else, you assume it's a hate thread?

The point was that Ashley and Kaidan are professionals and soldiers first, everything else later.  That's not a bad thing.

it's poster history, she ignores several things that contradict or skew her arguement when she makes it and she's been known to bash the VS for Horizon, that's why.

TZ sums it up:

TeenZombie wrote...

Xilizhra's premise is that Tali is always loyal. She's not. There is a price to her friendship and loyalty. Which is fine, but it's disingenous to gloss over that fact.

Modifié par ADLegend21, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:37 .

[jeweledleah]

TeenZombie wrote...

Except if you don't feel obligated to lie for her in the Quarian court.  Then she's not loyal.  At all.

I thought it was more of focus missions rather then loyalty?  they never should have called them that >_>  she still stays with Shepard and she still follows orders.  she's just not as close to Shepard personaly. 

[DiebytheSword]

Xilizhra wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

Very thoughtful analysis indeed. I would add that there is the additional onus that TIM interfered in the VS relationship with Shepard by leaking information to Alliance ears that Shepard was working for Cerberus. Tali's people see Shepard with Cerberus, but Tali had no time to stew over that, neither did Garrus.

Thus, I look at Horizon as a result of misinformation spread by TIM as much as a feeling of betrayal/Shep being unable to defuse that situation.

True enough. However, I believe that that information was much more damaging delivered to the VS than it would have been to Garrus or Tali.

I'm not so sure.  Garrus perhaps, because Cerberus perturbed him the least.  I think its the stewing time that added to the problem, not just the misinformation and who it came from.  Tali may have been insulated some by fangirlism a bit, but she is generally less assertive to begin with, and more apt to question her own feelings than snap down out of duty.  Compare this to Ash and Kaidan who are more assertive as both an NCO and CO, both responsible for others underneath them and part of the military machine.  While this affects loyalty as you've outlined, its also because of individual personalities.

Either way, well stated opinon.  *sniff*  Deserves praise.

And I think Saphra Deden just said the only thing I have seen him say on this board that I have ever agreed with.

[syllogi]

jeweledleah wrote...

TeenZombie wrote...

Except if you don't feel obligated to lie for her in the Quarian court.  Then she's not loyal.  At all.

I thought it was more of focus missions rather then loyalty?  they never should have called them that >_>  she still stays with Shepard and she still follows orders.  she's just not as close to Shepard personaly. 

Tali herself says she's not sticking around after the mission is over.  I'm just pointing out that Tali is not a selfless, unconditionally loyal martyr.  She has her own goals and conditions to her friendship and loyalty.

Much like Ashley and Kaidan.  Their goals and conditions for regaining their loyalty were not met by Shepard on Horizon.

[Xilizhra]

You're not accouting for the huge crush Tali harbors for Shepard automatically

As much as I hate to admit it, this is highly questionable if Shepard is female.

or for the VS being Sheaprd's lover.

I did account for this. See my fifth paragraph.

besides the fact that Horizon and the vS reaction were a game mechanic to keep them off the "everyone can die!" suicide missionto be alive for ME3

True, but Liara and Wrex had scenarios that kept their loyalty intact.

you're also fogetting that Tali's father is an admiral and is the one who approves her transfer request to be on the Normandy which he DOESN'T know is a Ceberus Ship.

I didn't cover this because I didn't believe it to be relevant. If Tali's father found out about this and barred Tali from the Normandy, it wouldn't affect her loyalty to Shepard at all.

The Alliance KNOWS Shepard's ship has a cebrrus crew and that they're working with them so the VS qould ahve to commit treason.

Notable. I wouldn't have made this topic if they agreed with Shepard's plans and wanted to go, but couldn't. This doesn't, however, seem to be the case.

Also if you pick the paragon option asking them why theysound sangry they say they would have followed you anywhere since it seems apparent you faked your death.

Followed you anywhere... while you were with the Alliance.

So it's not just a professional loyalty to Shepard as you say. this is anoher one of those "Tali and Garrus are better than the VS" threads it looks like.

I'm not mad at them for Horizon at all. The situation was inevitable. It doesn't make them bad people, just the least loyal, for better or for worse. As Saphra said (sort of), you do need to be careful about whom you're loyal to.

Except if you don't feel obligated to lie for her in the Quarian court. Then she's not loyal. At all.

That's the downside of personal loyalty: It's far more easily broken by personal affronts.

[jeweledleah]

Cthulhu42 wrote...

Tali is always loyal provided Shepard doesn't act like a ****. The analysis does make the assumption that Shepard is nice, yes.

actualy, sadly.. Tali is "loyal" as long as you don't reveal information about her father.  you can be a complete arse at every other time to her, in ME1 even more so then in ME2.  game mechanics and all that....

you don't have to be nice to keep her focused

Tali herself says she's not sticking around after the mission is over.
 I'm just pointing out that Tali is not a selfless, unconditionally
loyal martyr.  She has her own goals and conditions to her friendship
and loyalty.

Much like Ashley and Kaidan.  Their goals and conditions for regaining their loyalty were not met by Shepard on Horizon.

a fair point.  which is why I dislike the whole "loyal" premise.  Tali is loyla to her people.  she's helping Shepard becasue of personal feelings but also becasue Shepard's goals could potentialy help her people.

Ash/Kaidan are loyal to alliance and to their oath.  they follow Shepard through thick and thin as long as Shepard is also loyla to that oath (and Shepard was, in ME1)

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:45 .