183 réponses à ce sujet

[YouthCultureForever]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Loyalty should never be blind.

I agree.

[Xilizhra]

Tali herself says she's not sticking around after the mission is over. I'm just pointing out that Tali is not a selfless, unconditionally loyal martyr. She has her own goals and conditions to her friendship and loyalty.

No, she's not a martyr. She's loyal for personal reasons and can lose it for personal reasons.

[Saaziel]

jeweledleah wrote...

Saaziel wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Now, if we add romance to the mix, things become murkier, which is really exactly why militaries don't allow this sort of thing. Then, some of the loyalty becomes personal, but not enough to override the bonds of duty: both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to allow this to happen, and still see things within that militaristic paradigm.

I agree. That said , it could have been explored better in the dialogue.

And to the extent that this was the issue , being duty-bound sounds more like Ash than Raiden .

if you mean Kaidan, actualy - he's very much about duty. even when you romance him, he says before Ilos to Shepard that "it cannot change anything, loyalty to alliance comes first - its a good crew, the best he's ever served with, he woudln't want to ruin it" duty is very much in character for Kaidan.

wha'ts not in character for kaidan are snap judgements. if he were more incharacter on Horizon, he would have stayed longer, asked more questions. but /shrug.

To be honest I'm not in the best position to talk about kaidan; i didn't go through the dialogue all too much and he got nuked in all my play through. My Femshep who romanced Kaidan is someone else's import , so i never got the feeling that he was a soldier first kind of guy. I'll take your word on it though; it adds more to Xil's original post anyhow

... I meant Kaidan but its getting late here and got some Mortal Combat in my Mass Effect.

I'd recruit Raiden over Kaidan though, the loyalty mission would be epic.

Modifié par Saaziel, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:47 .

[jeweledleah]

Saaziel wrote...

To be honest I'm not in the best position to talk about kaidan; i didn't go through the dialogue all too much and he got nuked in all my play through. My Femshep who romanced Kaidan is someone else's import , so i never got the feeling that he was a soldier first kind of guy.

... I meant Kaidan but its getting late here and got some Mortal Combat in my Mass Effect.

I'd recruit Raiden over Kaidan though, the loyalty mission would be epic.

you relaly should try to experience it first hand.  his romance adds a lot of interesting depth to his character, depth that unfortunately is barely touched for male Shepards (the hints are still there, but its not nearly as detailed)

leaving Ash on Virmire will suck.  but its worth it.  at least then, you'd be able to judge his character with full knowledge  (did wonders for my feelings about Ash )

Modifié par jeweledleah, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:48 .

[syllogi]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tali herself says she's not sticking around after the mission is over. I'm just pointing out that Tali is not a selfless, unconditionally loyal martyr. She has her own goals and conditions to her friendship and loyalty.

No, she's not a martyr. She's loyal for personal reasons and can lose it for personal reasons.

But according to your first post:

Shepard and Tali form a bond composed solely of respect and, hopefully, friendship. Tali fights with Shepard because she wants to, because she feels it's the right thing to do for the right reasons, and with the right means and commander. Tali chooses loyalty without obligation. And that, in the end, is it.

Which is not technically true.  Tali will be loyal to Shepard ONLY if Shepard lies to the court.  Shepard can be kind and romance her, or be a complete jerk one hundred percent of the time before that point, but all that matters is that Shepard lies or withholds the truth about her father's crime.

It's a plot device.  Much like Horizon was a plot device, in order to get rid of Ashley or Kaidan for the duration of ME2.

[MegaBadExample]

Ashley/Kaidan followed Shepard when he/she stole Normandy in ME1. Even encouraged it. At that moment I'd say their loyalty to shepard was personal, not professional, considering they could get court-martialed for going along with it. But they followed anyway.

I really just see Horizon as BioWare's way of keeping the VS off your squad. Even so, Ash/Kai don't even know you're alive at this stage. Shepard is back from the dead, working for a known enemy, no contact whatsoever since he/she's been back. Clearly it causes the VS to re-think. Shepard isn't who they thought he/she was. I think they've got the right to walk away upset. It's the HUMAN thing to do

Though, their e-mail after, proves they've thought things over. From what I read of it, the VS still can't believe it's really THE Shepard. As for Tali? That reunion sucked. Tali barely asked any questions she just accepted it too easily imo

[Xilizhra]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Your analysis is good, but I can't help but think that Tali actually undermines it a little. Mainly because her loyalty to Shepard actually isn't explained that well in the game. This is especially evident if you didn't give her the geth data in ME1 and didn't let her take Veetor in ME2. At the very least she should have been much more unfriendly at least until her loyalty mission was complete. Even then you'd think she'd keep expressing concern over the company Shepard has taken to keeping. I mean more than just one conversation. Just not enough dialogue.

Alas, this thread isn't about her.

I think you are spot-on about the VS being duty bound. However there may be a personal element as well. The VS was Shepard's comrade but Shepard seemingly betrayed the organization they jointly swore loyalty too. In that way it is a personal betrayal of the VS.

There are dialogue holes with Tali, but there are dialogue holes everywhere. You'd never just have 3-5 conversations with a person on your squad and never talk to them again.  Though there do seem to be, perhaps ironically, too few places to lose Tali's loyalty... oh well.

I do agree there's a personal element of betrayal that makes the situation worse. The personal element is lacking specifically in loyalty, at least not enough to overcome the professional and personal issues alike.

you relaly should try to experience it first hand. his romance adds a lot of interesting depth to his character, depth that unfortunately is barely touched for male Shepards (the hints are still there, but its not nearly as detailed)

leaving Ash on Virmire will suck. but its worth it. at least then, you'd be able to judge his character with full knowledge (did wonders for my feelings about Ash )

Agreed. I only killed Ashley once, but it did help me stop thinking of Kaidan as simply throwaway.

[Drone223]

MegaBadExample wrote...

Ashley/Kaidan followed Shepard when he/she stole Normandy in ME1. Even encouraged it. At that moment I'd say their loyalty to shepard was personal, not professional, considering they could get court-martialed for going along with it. But they followed anyway.

I really just see Horizon as BioWare's way of keeping the VS off your squad. Even so, Ash/Kai don't even know you're alive at this stage. Shepard is back from the dead, working for a known enemy, no contact whatsoever since he/she's been back. Clearly it causes the VS to re-think. Shepard isn't who they thought he/she was. I think they've got the right to walk away upset. It's the HUMAN thing to do

Though, their e-mail after, proves they've thought things over. From what I read of it, the VS still can't believe it's really THE Shepard. As for Tali? That reunion sucked. Tali barely asked any questions she just accepted it too easily imo

^This

[fortunesque]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tali herself says she's not sticking around after the mission is over. I'm just pointing out that Tali is not a selfless, unconditionally loyal martyr. She has her own goals and conditions to her friendship and loyalty.

No, she's not a martyr. She's loyal for personal reasons and can lose it for personal reasons.

And A/K's loyalty to the Alliance isn't personal?

IMO, it's the same thing, except that the VS's "loyalty mission" comes automatically failed in ME2 because you're forced into it.

[Xilizhra]

Which is not technically true. Tali will be loyal to Shepard ONLY if Shepard lies to the court. Shepard can be kind and romance her, or be a complete jerk one hundred percent of the time before that point, but all that matters is that Shepard lies or withholds the truth about her father's crime.

I admit, I was writing my analysis parts talking about other characters from the perspective of a completionist playthrough where everyone was loyal. This may not, I admit, be true for everyone.

[YouthCultureForever]

I posted this in another VS thread - The "Is Ashley Still Your Girl" thread.

Another thing I think is important is that the squad has no contact with TIM and even Shepard doesn't get a true face to face. There are plenty of times where Shepard and the crew undermine the fact that the sucicide mission is a Cerberus mission. Shep says stuff all the time like, "I don't work for Cerberus, they're working for me". He is treated like the one calling the shots for the most part. Not TIM. I believe this was done on purpose, it's brilliant actually. The Shepard/Cerberus association would really start to blur. Don't get me wrong, the association doesn't go away altogether. Some team members will still call you out on your BS, but eventually they let it go. Shepard provides a thin sense of comfort to a crew who would otherwise be completely alienated by Cerberus.

Essentially, they got sucked in by Shepard. The whole saving the galaxy line is pretty seductive. I think thats especially true of Garrus and Tali who should know better.

My questions to you Xilizhra are: Do you think Tali would stick around if TIM held a more visible role in the mission? Would she withdraw all support if so?

Modifié par YouthCultureForever, 09 novembre 2011 - 04:55 .

[Mystranna Kelteel]

TeenZombie wrote...
It's a plot device.  Much like Horizon was a plot device, in order to get rid of Ashley or Kaidan for the duration of ME2.

Yup. 

The writing dictates that the VS does not trust someone who works with terrorists, which I feel is perfectly sensible.

And the writing also dictates that Tali throws a tantrum at Shepard if you don't do what she wants.  In the first game that was copying the geth data; in the second game that was covering up war crimes that Tali herself says breaks her people's most sacred laws.

For someone who doesn't kowtow to Tali's whims she is far, far from respectful and only exists on your ship in a grudging fashion.

[jlb524]

Tali's 'professional' loyalty (i.e., loyalty to her people) really hasn't been tested yet.

[Estelindis]

Intriguing analysis, Xilizhra. I cannot but agree that Shepard's relationship with Ashley and Kaidan began in a formal military atmosphere and never totally left that environment due to shared loyalty to the Alliance. However, after Horizon, the VS did back up Shepard's report in spite of Shepard working with Cerberus. The VS didn't let their feelings about Shepard working with an opposed organization cloud their judgement when it came to making the final call that mattered when it came to how the Alliance would view Shepard. In ME3, once Shepard gets the opportunity to work with the Alliance again, I see Kaidan and Ashley being relieved at no longer being torn in two with regard to Shepard, not being torn in two even more than before. That said, I shall wait and see.

Modifié par Estelindis, 09 novembre 2011 - 05:05 .

[jlb524]

Saphra Deden wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

Tali's 'professional' loyalty (i.e., loyalty to her people) really hasn't been tested yet.

I would say her loyalty mission did just that. She could be loyal to her people and reveal the truth or cover it up to spare herself the grief.

I guess I meant in the context of her loyalty to Shepard.

That was a test of:  loyalty to her people vs. loyalty to her father's memory.

[jeweledleah]

jlb524 wrote...

Tali's 'professional' loyalty (i.e., loyalty to her people) really hasn't been tested yet.

I think it has, actualy.  twice.

first time with evidence.  she doesn't just ask Shepard to hide it to help her father.  she also asks, becasue if revealed, it could divide Admiralty even further and weaken quarians.

second time is confrontation with Legion.  she doesn't confront him solely becasue he's geth - she confronts him because he's endangering her people by sending information about flotilla to the Geth.  if you side with legion in that conflict?  her loyalty is lost.

when you side with both - you either offer a compromise that keeps flotilla safe, but still helps Legion... or you tell them both to knock it off.

either way, its about her people and in both cases, endangering her people - loses her "loyalty"

[MegaBadExample]

What's this all about?

Is it because Tali EVENTUALLY joins Shepard in ME2? Keep in mind Tali didn't join up with him/her at the start. She had things to do, things that came before Shepard. Much like Kaidan/Ashley had during ME2. The VS had things they couldn't simply walk away from at the time for Shepard.

[Xilizhra]

Ashley/Kaidan followed Shepard when he/she stole Normandy in ME1. Even encouraged it. At that moment I'd say their loyalty to shepard was personal, not professional, considering they could get court-martialed for going along with it. But they followed anyway.

I believe they trusted Shepard to fulfill the Alliance's best interests better than Udina. Though I agree, it blurred the lines.

I really just see Horizon as BioWare's way of keeping the VS off your squad. Even so, Ash/Kai don't even know you're alive at this stage. Shepard is back from the dead, working for a known enemy, no contact whatsoever since he/she's been back. Clearly it causes the VS to re-think. Shepard isn't who they thought he/she was. I think they've got the right to walk away upset. It's the HUMAN thing to do

Agreed. I hold no real ire against the VS for this.

And A/K's loyalty to the Alliance isn't personal?

That is. But they're loyal to Shepard in large part because Shepard is Alliance.

My questions to you Xilizhra are: Do you think Tali would stick around if TIM held a more visible role in the mission? Would she withdraw all support if so?

I believe that the presence of TIM would not, itself, prevent Tali from giving her support to Shepard, most especially if Shepard was vehement that she wasn't working for TIM for TIM's own sake (perhaps pointing out that if TIM was trying to simply fool Tali into thinking that, he was doing a lousy job of it).

[Xilizhra]

MegaBadExample wrote...

What's this all about?

Is it because Tali EVENTUALLY joins Shepard in ME2? Keep in mind Tali didn't join up with him/her at the start. She had things to do, things that came before Shepard. Much like Kaidan/Ashley had during ME2. The VS had things they couldn't simply walk away from at the time for Shepard.

Would Ashley or Kaidan have joined Shepard's mission in ME2 given enough time? Would they want to if duty prevented them?

[fortunesque]

Xilizhra wrote...

And A/K's loyalty to the Alliance isn't personal?

That is. But they're loyal to Shepard in large part because Shepard is Alliance.

Based on what? They believe in the mission. They believe in stopping the reapers. There's nothing in their dialog from ME1 that they're loyal to Shepard because of the Alliance.

What they don't believe in is teaming up with a terrorist organization to try to accomplish something; they're trying to do their work without compromising their morals. This isn't pro-Alliance as much as it's anti-Cerberus.