183 réponses à ce sujet

[CptData]

jeweledleah wrote...

this is a very strange reasoning to me.  if they beleive its the best i na series, why would they do everything in their power to ensure that as few people as possible will see it?  wouldn't they want the oposite?  and personaly, I'd rather it didn't impact the main story.  especialy since its Ashley and Kaidan we're talking about here, the "lets keep professional and personal lives separate"  LI's?

we are already different.  this is the only relationship that's damaged going into ME3.  even with Liara, even if you didn't play shadow broker, relationship doesn't seem to be truly damaged.. just on hold.

If you ask me, only the relationship with Liara is undamaged. Any other LI? Hmm, lemme check:

Miranda - it's possible she won't play a bigger role in ME3 and her romance arc won't be that long except for another (short) dialogue and sex. I don't wanna play down her romance, it just feels like that.

Jacob - hmmm, dunno. Never did his romance (or any other f!Shepard romance), but from what I know he seems to see things more seriously. Dunno if this romance will survive unharmed in ME3.

Tali - one of the relationships that might survive ME3 without any damage. Then again, there was not enough time to damage this relationship in ME2. Dunno how things will work out in ME3.

Garrus - same here.

Jack - Most likely this relationship won't last until end of ME3. It comes already with a burden (Jack's mental state and past)

Thane - Same as for Jack except mental state / past issue.  He's still slowly dying and if ME3 won't give a way to heal him somehow, he'll die.

The VS relationship starts damaged because of Horizon and it seems the rift seems to grow more and more. So I think this relationship will put the player in more emotional situations than others, including Liara. Liara IS loyal to Shepard and will continue the relationship no matter what's going to happen, the VS is not like that - s/he makes Shepard fighting for it really hard.

Modifié par CptData, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:33 .

[jeweledleah]

@ CptData - we don't know for sure how relationships will develop in ME3. but VS is the only existing romantic relationship that is guaranteed to start of on bad foot. it already has more then enough drama to deal with IMO.

@ Sian - Shepard is like mageHawke. exempt from everything, everyone else is held responsible for. even post arrival trial is a Sham.

its good to be a hero

[Ryzaki]

Considering he stopped the Reapers from Reaping everyone even *earlier* is it really surprising they give him a pass?   

Modifié par Ryzaki, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:12 .

[Hedera]

I would like to congratulate this thread and its posters for maintaining the single most civil and reasoned discussion of the VS I have seen in days. Bravo.

My own contribution: I think the VS and Horizon is one of the largest unknown quantities in the ME universe, save the Reapers. We traveled with them through the first game, then were accused of betrayal in the second. These are the only facts. Everything else; character development, story arcs, and reasoning behind choices that may or may not be made in ME3, is still open and up to interpretation. I have my own favorite reasoning behind Horizon, as I'm sure everyone else does, but that is what makes this a hard debate to settle. Until March, we only have two-thirds of a story.
TL;DR, The VS is an unknown quantity until ME3.

[Alikain]

Intriguing analysis, Xilizhra, but I can’t help myself think that firstly if we take Ashley, and save her at virnire. She hate herself for choose her over Kaidan due to the fact that Williams has to be better than the best, to make up for Shanxi. Well I don’t know what to say about Kaidan only that personal I never like his charactor. But when you look at it this way from the female shepard playthrough the only two women that have come to kaidan life are Rahna and shepard. Kaidan tried to save Rahna at BAaT when Vymnus punished Rahna by breaking her arm and Kaidan tried to defend her, only to receive a beating from Vyrnnus. When the turian pulled a knife, Kaidan lost control and hit him with a full biotic kick, breaking Vyrnnus' neck. Though Rahna was safe from Vyrnnus, she was afraid of Kaidan after that and the two parted ways. The same story with shepard when she die and came back. It was like he finally buried everything about shepard and now have to live the moment all over again. No matter what anyone would have behave the way kaidan did.

[CptData]

haynoats wrote...

...

Couple this with TIM's leak of Shepard being with Cerberus and it is no wonder that Ashley is conflicted deeply by the time of the meeting on Horizon. Yes Ash has been loyal to the Alliance longer than Shepard. Yes Ash has developed loyaly towards Shepard and if your LI, deep feelings. But it is her deep desire to clear the Willaims name that I think is her default and the leading cause of much of her inner conflict over this issue.

The OP did make some good observations to begin debate. But there is much unsaid about Tali's conflict and inner turmoil that I think becomes obvious by the end of in ME2.

^ This is a fine posting. Kudos.

[Kolos2]

What we know so far is that in ME3 this mistrust will be even greater, hence Horizon comeo wasn't an example of bad writing but an intro to a deeper conflict
It might be made for players who enjoy relationships based on conflict and inner struggles; even more with the lack of permanent team members;

As in life i would avoid such a huge baggage , even more if Earth is burning and there is an overflow of drama as it is
And not to mention there is like almost 3 years between and poeple do move on.;
And again LOtSB when Liara says VIs are beeing shortsighted

Modifié par Kolos2, 09 novembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[FoxHound109]

iakus wrote...

If you go back to Anderson after Horizon and tell him you met the VS, Anderson tells you he knows and that he authorized Ash/Kaidan's mission there.  He also says he didn't tell Shepard because of your Cerberus connection, that they could be manipulating and using Shepard (valid ponts, imo)

But he also says that the VS's report backed up Shepard's version of things.  The only part they couldn't prove was Reaper involvement. That gives me hope that Bioware hasn't decided to completely turn Ash and Kaidan into teh Donald Morgan to Shepard's Harry Dresden.

AGH! Why didn't I think to go back and talk to him?! D:

[jeweledleah]

FoxHound109 wrote...

iakus wrote...

If you go back to Anderson after Horizon and tell him you met the VS, Anderson tells you he knows and that he authorized Ash/Kaidan's mission there.  He also says he didn't tell Shepard because of your Cerberus connection, that they could be manipulating and using Shepard (valid ponts, imo)

But he also says that the VS's report backed up Shepard's version of things.  The only part they couldn't prove was Reaper involvement. That gives me hope that Bioware hasn't decided to completely turn Ash and Kaidan into teh Donald Morgan to Shepard's Harry Dresden.

AGH! Why didn't I think to go back and talk to him?! D:

here - I reccorded the pertinent conversation (its the same one regadless of the gender of your Shepard and/or romantic status) - its in 2 parts, sorry, casue I fail at video editing

www.youtube.com/watch - first half
www.youtube.com/watch - second half

[FoxHound109]

Thank you so much for posting it. It really changes how I see Anderson.

[Iakus]

Siansonea II wrote...

Not sure where "idealism" comes into play here, I don't think it's a question about idealism at all. It's a question of duty and law, more than anything, though there is a personal element. I think the VS felt a personal betrayal on Horizon, certainly. But I think any Alliance soldier would. We know Corporal Toombs also felt betrayed by Shepard working for Cerberus! Captain Anderson is at the top of the food chain, and he has access to more information than your rank and file Alliance soldiers, so does Hackett. They can act with more discretion and autonomy. Kaidan and Ashley would be clapped in irons for fraternizing with Cerberus, they simply don't have as much latitude to act independently.

It's important to evaluate each characters' situation when comparing their willingness to join Shepard or lack thereof. Of the Original Six, only two are willing to rejoin Shepard's posse, Tali and Garrus. Garrus managed to screw up his little vigilante business on Omega so bad that an entire space station of criminals wanted him dead, so naturally a little thing like Cerberus wasn't going to put him off, especially since he came aboard the Normandy on a stretcher. Tali only joins Shepard after the quarians send her on a mission to gather scientific data for a project she knows almost nothing about, after she's lost almost her entire contingent of soldiers. Cerberus is a huge sticking point, but she's had time to process it since Freedom's Progress, and it's the second time in a short interval that Shepard has shown up to help her out. Tali can get the Admirals to overlook the Cerberus thing, after all, her father is an admiral. She won't be clapped in irons or charged with treason or anything. 

Then there's Wrex, who's busy playing the Great Dictator on Tuchanka. And no one says Wrex is wrong for choosing his duty over being just another grunt on Shepard's ship. Why? Because Wrex greets Shepard warmly and doesn't bat an eyelash about Cerberus. And why would he? What do the krogan care about Cerberus? It's not like Cerberus created the genophage or something.

Then there's Liara, who also refuses Shepard's outstretched hand. She's got her own stuff going on, she wants to hunt down the Shadow Broker. That's more important than stopping the Reapers/Collectors? A vendetta? But whatever, people don't seem to harsh on her too much for not hopping on the shuttle as soon as Shepard crooks a finger at her. Again, Liara is nice to Shepard, and that's pretty much all that matters.

And then there's the VS, whose activities are all but unknown outside of the broad strokes of the Horizon mission. We don't know what the VS has been doing all this time, or what they're supposed to do after Horizon is over and done with, but we DO know that the person telling the VS what to do is Captain Anderson, and possibly Admiral Hackett. And letting the Alliance's most visible living hero, Ashley/Kaidan Williams/Alenko, go haring off with Cerberus is probably not anybody's idea of wise resource allocation, especially since the Alliance's most infamous DEAD hero is already working for Cerberus. Does the term political sh¡tstorm mean anything to anyone?

My point is each character has a different set of circumstances, and we can't judge Ashley and Kaidan as being better or worse than the others because they choose not to go with Shepard. It's a much bigger deal for them than it is for Tali or Garrus, it is literally a CRIME for them join Shepard. Never mind the fact that it's a crime for Shepard to be with Cerberus too, Shepard seems to be able to talk her way out that one with Anderson (who blindly trusts Shepard because of Anderson's own past with Saren and his insider information about the Reapers and whatnot.

Fair points, though I'd give Liara more of a pass.  Yeah her war with the Shadow Broker is in part personal, but seh also knows that the SB is allied with the Collectors.  So in a sense she's fighting the same war as Shepard, just on a different front.

The VS not being willing/able to join the squad is totally understandable, given the circumstances.  It's just when tehy openly question Shepard's loyalty to teh ALliance that goes too far.  

I actually wish the VS could have been more like Anderson:  believes in the Reaper threat, stands up to Shepard against allegations fo treason, but doesn't like the path Shepard is heading down.  And can't quite trust enough to be entirely open and honest about what's going on.  Because, you know, Cerberus.

And yeah it's true, the VS is the only relationship going into ME3 that's definitely behind the 8-ball

[alperez]

I think the op makes some interesting points.

However the problems with how the VS is presented aren't imo a question of proffesional loyalty overriding personal one but simply down to bad writing.

While the VS does as an alliance serving soldier have a duty to uphold (as any serving soldier would understand) the difference between this loyalty and Tali's duty to her people that the OP misses is the nature of the duty in a military organisation.

Tali feels her duty to her people personally as much as she does her duty to Shepard so when these 2 come into any contradiction there's more scope for her to decide her actions personally than there is from the VS because of the nature of working for a military organisation.

It's drummed into you that its not just duty its obligation, to yourself, to your comrades and to the wider populatiion at large that you must always put duty above everything else, that its what must come first in practically every decision you make. You live by a set of rules and procedure that are inviolate, that when broken can and do lead to disastrous consequences not just for you personally but for the people you work with and for the people you supposedly serve also.

Being a part of this system for as long as the VS has would ingrain this into your brain and in most situations especially ones where you we're unclear what the right course of action to take was it would be this that you'd almost invariably turn to.

Tali on the other hand is part of a looser organised group, while certain things would be ingrained in her the rules and regulations, the organised way of thinking perhaps would not be as much, when added that its personal choices that define someone in that group then it's apparent where the differences really lie.

Quarians can decide on their pilgramage to not return to their people, they're given the freedom to decide personally just what kind of a quarian they wish to be, military personell don't have the same luxury once they've signed up, you can't just leave until you've payed your obligation in full.

But that's not even imo where the crux of what's wrong with the VS's portrayal in mass effect, they don't emphasise it enough for it to be the issue and it doesn't take into account the nature of the personal relationship between Shepard and the VS either.

The problem is as i've said that they're written badly, rather than emphasise that nature of the VS in a non romanced scene or take into account the personal relationship romanced or not properly what we get is a mish mash that achieves neither.

Simply put rather than expand the effort and create seperate scenes for which VS your dealing with, be it Ash or Kaiden, be it romanced or not, they try to be all things to everyone and instead only succeed in being nothing to anyone.

So we never get a proper understanding of the motivations behind a non romanced Ash/Kaiden's actions or a genuine understand of why a romanced Ash/Kaiden would act how they do. Instead we get little nods and winks here and there and are forced ourselves to fill in the gaps and come to our own interpretation of the actions the VS takes.

Which then leads to an even bigger problem because no matter how we manage to come to terms with Horizon or the VS's character we actually have no real control or idea of what the intention they aimed for with the scene really was.

[Another_Golden_Dragon]

Umm... Tali (and even more so for Garrus) are also forced into Shepard's team because Shepard saved them (literally twice in Garrus' case).

Garrus had dug himself into a hole that even he couldn't get out of, and was just trying to take as many of the Mercs as he could before he got into an unmarked grave himself. Then, after all hope seems lost, out of nowhere Shepard appears. Life-saver. But then the Gunship takes Garrus down. Shepard quite literally drags Garrus onto the Normandy, where the dr saves his life. Garrus actually can't leave after that, since he owes a debt to both Shepard and Cerberus.

Tali doesn't have it that much easier. Haestrom is deep within Geth Territory, and the Geth destroyed all her team (except Reegor if you talked him down). That she was behind a rather thick door is a moot point. The Geth would have gotten thru eventually (Reegor even says so). Along comes Shepard, and wipes out the Geth. While more Distant, a Life-saver here, too.

One final comment: Both Tali and Garrus may have another (and slightly more ulterior) motive. Shepard won't leave a job half finished, and both know this. So they won't try to get him/her to stop working with Cerberus immediately. Both show some concern over this (Garrus: "I'm more worried about you: Remember those sick experiments?" and Tali: "Remember, Shepard: These people thought enslaving Thorian Creepers and Rachni was a good Idea".) What's stopping them from going along and helping Shepard in THIS mission, then trying to convince him/her to leave later? If the VS, especially romanced, had hinted to something like this, then Horizon would actually have made a bit of sense.

[Xilizhra]

However the problems with how the VS is presented aren't imo a question of proffesional loyalty overriding personal one but simply down to bad writing.

I'm not sure about the presentation; it could indeed have been better. This is just what I feel their motivations are in-universe.

One final comment: Both Tali and Garrus may have another (and slightly more ulterior) motive. Shepard won't leave a job half finished, and both know this. So they won't try to get him/her to stop working with Cerberus immediately. Both show some concern over this (Garrus: "I'm more worried about you: Remember those sick experiments?" and Tali: "Remember, Shepard: These people thought enslaving Thorian Creepers and Rachni was a good Idea".) What's stopping them from going along and helping Shepard in THIS mission, then trying to convince him/her to leave later? If the VS, especially romanced, had hinted to something like this, then Horizon would actually have made a bit of sense.

Why is this bad? If it is.

[alperez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I'm not sure about the presentation; it could indeed have been better. This is just what I feel their motivations are in-universe.

The problem though is in presenting it how they do the true motivations don't actually show through and we're instead forced to come to our own conclussions regarding those motivations imo.

Again go back to Horizon, what we get is practically the VS morphing into the same character the dreaded KAIDASH, rather than the 2 seperate characters they really are, then we also get exactly the same thing happening irrespective of what relationship your Shepard personally has with the VS romanced or not, in trying to create the simplest scene possible one that checks all the boxes with the minmal effort we're presented with an incomplete scene for either character or relationship.

In reality the emphasis on the character motivations should have played out differntly in a romanced or non romanced one while also emphasising the nature of the relationship also, unfortunately it doesn't achieve either.

For example, a romanced VS would imo feel abandoned by the mistaken perception that Shepard's return presents, which is the fact he's alive combined with the rumours that he's been working for/with cerberus for some time calls into question the events of the destruction of the normandy and then because of this the real feelings that Shepard has in regards to the relationship he and the VS shared.

Its a personal abandonment that enforces the later feeling of  professional abandonment imo.

While a proffessional relationship with the VS would also have this issue it would be to a much lesser extent so it would be the professional abandonment that enforces the feeling of personal abandonment in that scenario,

But in order to achieve Horizon with the least amount of expanded effort instead what happens is that we get the mish mash where both sides of the two differing relationships are in either version and in exactly the same order of importance.

This to me is where the presentation falls down.

If you lost a lover 2 years previously and had spent that time believing they were dead only to be confronted by that person being alive 2 years later then imo your first thoughts would be from an entirely emotional viewpoint, if they are alive now they must not have died and they've let you go through the past 2 years believing they were alive for some reason.

To me that would cause anger, resentment and a complete questioning of just exactly how important you were really to this person, so in a romanced version of the scene this would then later inform how you react professionally.

If you can't trust the person you love with your heart then why would you trust them in relation of anything else basically.

Wheras if the person was just a colleague or friend and they turned up working for people considered by you to be the enemy, its the professional betrayal that would be the focus of your wrath.

Horizon though irrespective of the character or the relationship, puts the emphasis on both arguments equally in exactly the same places which is bad presentation imo.

Modifié par alperez, 13 novembre 2011 - 02:59 .

[Xilizhra]

Again go back to Horizon, what we get is practically the VS morphing into the same character the dreaded KAIDASH, rather than the 2 seperate characters they really are, then we also get exactly the same thing happening irrespective of what relationship your Shepard personally has with the VS romanced or not, in trying to create the simplest scene possible one that checks all the boxes with the minmal effort we're presented with an incomplete scene for either character or relationship.

I think that's only a problem with Kaidan. Ashley's character stays quite consistent. And I don't believe that it's made worse by the romance scene; I think it's actually more effective that way, with the romance entangling loyalties even more.

As for issues of focus... perhaps the VS is trying to deliberately not think of Shepard as being a lover, to try to be more objective.

[alperez]

Xilizhra wrote...

I think that's only a problem with Kaidan. Ashley's character stays quite consistent. And I don't believe that it's made worse by the romance scene; I think it's actually more effective that way, with the romance entangling loyalties even more.

As for issues of focus... perhaps the VS is trying to deliberately not think of Shepard as being a lover, to try to be more objective.

But its the fact that rather than have the 2 characters stay true to their character they instead morph them almost into the same one, the fact Ash is the character that seemingly stays truer doesn't diminish the fact that rather than create a proper version with Kaiden they instead morph him more in line with Ash's than his own.

As for focus, again its impossible not to focus on Shepard as a lover given the situation itself, no matter how proffessional one may try to be certain circumstances force you to be less objective and be more emotional.

So while professionally you may act one way given one situation, emotionally you'll only act one way given the same situation.

Example as a professional soldier if you lose a person in your command you can react professionally, but if you lost your lover or a family member would you expect the same level of professionalism?

[Xilizhra]

But its the fact that rather than have the 2 characters stay true to their character they instead morph them almost into the same one, the fact Ash is the character that seemingly stays truer doesn't diminish the fact that rather than create a proper version with Kaiden they instead morph him more in line with Ash's than his own.

Kaidan should never have been in the same role, and Virmire should never have happened. This sort of thing makes it kind of inevitable.

As for focus, again its impossible not to focus on Shepard as a lover given the situation itself, no matter how proffessional one may try to be certain circumstances force you to be less objective and be more emotional.

Well, they definitely fail at being objective.

[Xilizhra]

The VS does not. VS has nothing to rely on Shepard for, regardless of romance. In every aspect (power, skills, experience, leadership) VS is not inferior to Shepard. VS does not need Shepard to accomplish their goals. In fact, VS desperately needs to step outside of Shepard's shadow in order to further their own career and VS knows it.

I don't know... I can think of many aspects in which Ashley is inferior to me.

Tali needs Shepard because of how vulnerable and incompetent (in terms of leadership abilities) she is. She appears friendly because she wants and needs to use Shepard to help the Quarians.

And is also genuinely friendly.

In the words of Jack, "Everybody wants something."

True, and many people want friendship.

[Xilizhra]

Because you know more about Shepard than Ashley and because you ARE Shepard (identification). The only thing Shepard is definitively superior in is knowledge regarding the Reapers, which becomes totally useless once the Reapers are defeated.

Also, biotics and tolerance ("I'm no fan of aliens").

Because BioWare writers do not allow Shepard to act like a jerk towards Tali.

Shame, that. It's not my problem, however.

Friendship is an evolutionary mechanism to further cooperation. Tali's fitness and survival would be improved via cooperation with Shepard, whereas VS's would not.

Perhaps. I just hope that the VS realizes when it will before it becomes... problematic for her.

[alperez]

Xilizhra wrote...

Kaidan should never have been in the same role, and Virmire should never have happened. This sort of thing makes it kind of inevitable.

How is or why should it be inevitable that rather than follow through with the premise you've created and present the consequences of a forced action, your response (biowares not yours) to this is to morph characters into exactly the same role and personality?

Seriously we're talking about a five minute cameo here, not a fully fledged squadmate role, if your not willing to put the time and effort into making the scene work then surely this is as clear cut an example of bad presentation as there could ever be.

Well, they definitely fail at being objective.

But why should they be objective?

Romantic involvement or not they are in a unique position to be as non objective as any character in the game.

From a romanced pov, they've spent 2 years believing the person they loved was dead only to have that completely blown to pieces by Shepard's reappearance, a reappearance that opens up serious questions regarding just exactly what Shepard actually felt about the relationship itself.

In real life if you stayed out all night and were uncontacable from someone you were in a relationship with, you'd face some serious questions from that person.

In that situation that person would be more than likely unobjective in how they initially respond to that situation, intensify that by a thousand percent and you don't even come close to what perception Shepard's actions could logically force the VS's mind to think, yet we expect objectivity.

To me its unrealistic simply because some things can't be objectively analyses and certainly not in a five minute conversation.

Hell a lot of arguments between lovers end with one sleeping on the couch and its only later in the cold light of day that objectivity actually plays a part.

As for a non romanced VS, shepard is working with cerberus, they're considered traitors.

In present day circumstances the closest analogy would be an american soldier suddenly appearing backed up by AL Qaeda, you think initially that soldiers actions would be objectively analysed?

I mean you go onto the wrong websites and objectivity would be thrown out the window in terms of whether or not you held sympathetic views regarding terrorism, let alone if you turned up working with them in tow.

It'd be off to gitmo and time to try out your flashy new orange jumpsuit quicker than you could say I voted for George W.