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The Virmire Survivor and the topic of loyalty

Débuté par Xilizhra , nov. 09 2011 04:08

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#126
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Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 04:52

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

So you think she's been lying and trying to manipulate Shepard the whole way through? This discussion's probably reached an impasse then, as I really don't see how we can continue when we clearly have such completely different views on what Tali's personality really is.

I never said she's lying. Nor do I think she's lying. I won't call it manipulation either. It's perfectly legitimate and honorable social interaction. Friendly gestures to induce cooperation in order to improve her fitness, like I've said in the very beginning. For all I know Shepard knows all of this and willingly followed through simply because he (there is no Lesbian Talimance yet) values the utility from their relationship higher than the price that he has to pay for it (which is quite minimal, to be honest). In other words it's a win-win situation.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 13 novembre 2011 - 04:54 .

#127
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Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 04:57

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Xilizhra wrote...

Psychological, not social. It's not a social taboo to remove one's suit, it's overcoming one's natural instincts that have been honed into you for your entire life.

If it's psychological rather than social then I'm even less impressed.

That's because you're not her. I'm still nervous about eating out thanks to having food allergies. This is far bigger.

I'm allergic to tiger prawns and some other shellfish. I just pack up on antihistamines before I hit the seafood buffet. Some may see that as an extraordinary act of courage or foolishness but I don't. Because "I'm not you", apparently.

Modifié par iOnlySignIn, 13 novembre 2011 - 04:58 .

#128
Xilizhra
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 04:59

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I'm allergic to tiger prawns and some other shellfish too. I just pack up on antihistamines before I hit the seafood buffet. Some may see that as an extraordinary act of courage or foolishness but I don't. Because "I'm not you", apparently.

How often have you done this? Also, how bad is it?

#129
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Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 05:00

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Cthulhu42 wrote...

So you think she's been lying and trying to manipulate Shepard the whole way through? This discussion's probably reached an impasse then, as I really don't see how we can continue when we clearly have such completely different views on what Tali's personality really is.

I never said she's lying. Nor do I think she's lying. I won't call it manipulation either. It's perfectly legitimate and honorable social interaction. Friendly gestures to induce cooperation in order to improve her fitness, like I've said in the very beginning. For all I know Shepard knows all of this and willingly followed through simply because he (there is no Lesbian Talimance yet) values the utility from their relationship higher than the price that he has to pay for it (which is quite minimal, to be honest). In other words it's a win-win situation.

So there's no feelings involved whatsoever? Tali and Shepard are emotionless robots simply trying to gain something? Again, we clearly don't have the same view on the characters' personalities.

Modifié par Cthulhu42, 13 novembre 2011 - 05:01 .

#130
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Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 05:14

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Cthulhu42 wrote...

So there's no feelings involved whatsoever? Tali and Shepard are emotionless robots simply trying to gain something? Again, we clearly don't have the same view on the characters' personalities.

No, they are intelligent creatures who are smart enough to enjoy themselves and get things done at the same time.

Emotions evolved in primates because they improve fitness and survival via cooperation. They should really put this into school textbooks - it would save us a lot of time. 

#131
Xilizhra
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 05:15

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Basically, Cthulhu and iOnlySignIn are describing the same thing in different terms. There's not much of a real argument here.

#132
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Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 05:17

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Xilizhra wrote...

Basically, Cthulhu and iOnlySignIn are describing the same thing in different terms. There's not much of a real argument here.

We are? Well, I'm now thoroughly confused.

#133
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Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 05:25

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Xilizhra wrote...

Basically, Cthulhu and iOnlySignIn are describing the same thing in different terms. There's not much of a real argument here.

Sure. You can say the same thing about Creationists and Evolutionists. Or Muslims and Christians.

#134
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Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 05:26

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iOnlySignIn wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Basically, Cthulhu and iOnlySignIn are describing the same thing in different terms. There's not much of a real argument here.

Sure. You can say the same thing about Creationists and Evolutionists. Or Muslims and Christians.

Well, Muslims and Christians both believe in an invisible man in the sky who created everything. I suppose that's something.

#135
alperez
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 09:39

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Reading through what Cthulhu and ionlysignis are arguing about i find i can't understand how logically ionlysignin has come to the position they have in relation to a perception of Tali's actions or motivations.

While as a hypothesis its interesting to read her actions described in such a way, to me the hypothesis falls down completely both in her known actions and her thus far known motivations. To suggest that Tali's actions or motivations are in anyway anything other than how they're presented is imo a complete misreading not just of Tali's character but how characters have been handled throughout mass effect itself.

If you truly believe that Tali's actions thus far have been how you described them to be then your take on the character belongs not in mass effect but in the game of thrones, your assigning motivations and reasoning that would George RR Martin would have difficulty in putting across.

#136
Dariustwinblade
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 02:21

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Why did this thread get hijacked by Tali?



Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

#137
Xilizhra
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 02:25

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Yes, bringing this back to the VS...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

No.

#138
Aurora313
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 02:28

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Yes. I would, only if they proved it to me.

#139
Xilizhra
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 02:30

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Can you elaborate?

#140
Aurora313
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 02:34

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They hurt me, yes. But the circumstances were questionable and manipulated to suir someones needs and wants. If they can prove they're still loyal to me, then I'd trust them. ...
Not sure what a prudent example would be. Erm. I guess it would be a 'Him or me' scenario. Shepard presents an ultimatum to the VS and the answer would ultimately decided whether he trusts them or leaves them behind.

Modifié par Aurora313, 13 novembre 2011 - 02:35 .

#141
Xilizhra
Posté 13 novembre 2011 - 02:53

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Ahh. Well, that'll work.

#142
Another_Golden_Dragon
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 02:52

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Xilizhra wrote...
Why is this bad? If it is.



It isn't, or at least not meant to be.  Instead, it was meant to describe a possible storyline and backdoor explaination (that Bioware didn't follow up on), and possible explaination that Shepard isn't with Cerberus in ME 3, that VS could then use.

Really, Tali, Garrus, and Grunt (hired as "muscle" to "persuade" the commander to leave Cerberus) can't do the job?

As for the original Topic:  Most likely, Yes.  WE will be in a full scale war, and a proffessional relationship between two marines on the field of battle means that trust MUST be shared (or else everyone is dead).

Will the romance (if started in ME 1) continue?  Possibly.  Bioware has stated that the player will be rewarded if Shepard remained loyal to the VS, so they are at least allowing for the possibility.

#143
Goody Two Shoes
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 03:17

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Dariustwinblade wrote...


Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.


Nope.

#144
ADLegend21
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 03:43

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Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

Yup.Image IPB

#145
Ryzaki
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 03:52

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Dariustwinblade wrote...

Why did this thread get hijacked by Tali?



Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.


Who knows. 

Nope. Not an iota. 

#146
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Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 04:11

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alperez wrote...

Reading through what Cthulhu and ionlysignis are arguing about i find i can't understand how logically ionlysignin has come to the position they have in relation to a perception of Tali's actions or motivations.

While as a hypothesis its interesting to read her actions described in such a way, to me the hypothesis falls down completely both in her known actions and her thus far known motivations. To suggest that Tali's actions or motivations are in anyway anything other than how they're presented is imo a complete misreading not just of Tali's character but how characters have been handled throughout mass effect itself.

If you truly believe that Tali's actions thus far have been how you described them to be then your take on the character belongs not in mass effect but in the game of thrones, your assigning motivations and reasoning that would George RR Martin would have difficulty in putting across.

Yes, the way I described it is indeed how I interpret Tali and VS's actions. If you can explain to me how it "falls down completely both in her known actions and her thus far known motivations", we might have an interesting discussion. To me that is exactly "how they're presented", "how characters have been handled throughout mass effect itself".

Also, thanks for your recommendation of George R R Martin, even if that might be your polite way of saying "F you and get out of here" to me. He is a great writer whose work is worth reading. I should indeed spend time reading authors like him and Andrzej Sapkowski rather than wasting time here.

#147
CptData
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 06:49

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ADLegend21 wrote...

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

Yup.Image IPB


I second that.
Just because the VS seems to distrust Shepard after Horizon it doesn't mean Shepard has to distrust the VS. And the VS has valid reasons to distrust Shepard.

Trust is like respect. No one deserves it before earning it by hard work.
- Commander Shepard, fictional quote, Mass Effect

#148
Xilizhra
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 06:50

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If Shepard's death resets the relationship, the VS hasn't done much to gain trust either.

#149
CptData
Posté 14 novembre 2011 - 07:21

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Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard's death resets the relationship, the VS hasn't done much to gain trust either.


Dunno. Did Shepard's death reset Liara!LI? I think it didn't fully.

I think it's up to the player to decide if Shepard's death ended his/her relationship with Liara / VS. The way how Liara acts in ME2 gives the imagination she considers the relationship as "still active". Same for the VS after receiving that email - s/he apologizes for how s/he acted on Horizon - and tries to repair any done damaged.

The only thing that bugs me is that you can have a talk to Liara in the loft confirming the relationship - but you can't do the same with the VS. Just a dialogue in the Flux would have been nice enough.

#150
Iakus
Posté 15 novembre 2011 - 01:59

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Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.


I do.

But I still get a "You chose wrong" vibe.
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