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[PhantomSpectre]

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

Not at all.

[Martin the Warrior]

I haven't read the spoilers, but I've gotten the gist of some of them from reading a few threads on the forums.
So, do I trust the VS? Well, I think s/he would never willingly betray Shepard. Some people believe that Horizon was a betrayal on the VS's part. I don't. I get the distinct impression that the VS thought Shepard had turned his/her back on him/her (gender-specific pronouns can be a pain). In fact, I seem to recall Ashley saying "You betrayed the Alliance. You betrayed me" (which suggests that her feelings at that point seem to be both professional and personal). Kaidan probably said the same thing since their lines on Horizon are really similar, but I have four ME2 playthroughs in which I went through that dialogue with Ash, as opposed to three playthroughs with Kaidan, so it makes sense that I would remember Ashley's dialogue a bit better.
I think a more relevant question would be "do I trust the spoilers?" No, I don't. I've taken into consideration that ME3's storyline will probably involve bad things happening to my favorite characters, but judging by what I've heard about the spoilers, I really think they only tell parts of the story, and some of those parts might have changed since the spoilers were written.

[ADLegend21]

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard's death resets the relationship, the VS hasn't done much to gain trust either.

you know besides stay in the alliance and rise in the ranks like a real soldier would to have some pull when shepard returned to action after being detained. There's that.

[Xilizhra]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard's death resets the relationship, the VS hasn't done much to gain trust either.

you know besides stay in the alliance and rise in the ranks like a real soldier would to have some pull when shepard returned to action after being detained. There's that.

That's to the Alliance, not me and not necessarily the Reaper war. They weren't one and the same before.

[Quole]

The VS is more trustworthy than MJ and Jacob.

[Xilizhra]

Quole wrote...

The VS is more trustworthy than MJ and Jacob.

Maybe. We shall see...

[Quole]

Xilizhra wrote...

Quole wrote...

The VS is more trustworthy than MJ and Jacob.

Maybe. We shall see...

Although, when it comes down to it I dont trust anyone.

[ADLegend21]

Xilizhra wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard's death resets the relationship, the VS hasn't done much to gain trust either.

you know besides stay in the alliance and rise in the ranks like a real soldier would to have some pull when shepard returned to action after being detained. There's that.

That's to the Alliance, not me and not necessarily the Reaper war. They weren't one and the same before.

The alliance is fighting the Reapers therefore it is the reaper war, they're one in the same NOW and NOW is all that matters when dealing with the Reapers. I hate to sound like one of Shepard's line, but I trust every squadmate with my life, if not they wouldn't be in ME3 for me they'd be unrecruited or dead (like Zaeed in ME2, unrecruited that is)

[Xilizhra]

Ashley hasn't been a squadmate for some time. I'm going to have to build that up again.

[Quole]

jreezy wrote...

Quole wrote...

The VS is more trustworthy than MJ and Jacob.

She doesn't look that hideous, nowhere near it.

I disagree

[CptData]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ashley hasn't been a squadmate for some time. I'm going to have to build that up again.

Indeed. I hope everything will be fine in ME3. However - my Shepard trusts Ashley, even after Horizon, since she has some good points. If Ashley doesn't trust Shepard I'm fine - trust is something you need to earn (and you can lose it quite easily), so it's up to Shepard to earn Ashley's trust.

Must say, it's worth it.  Besides that, Shepard did the same for 12 squadmates in ME2 - so s/he can do it again.

[ADLegend21]

Xilizhra wrote...

Ashley hasn't been a squadmate for some time. I'm going to have to build that up again.

Or it could be like putting on a glove again. Same as it was made to be for Tali and Garrus in ME2 and Liara in LoTSB.

[Kratan]

PhantomSpectre wrote...

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

Not at all.

Agreed. If there's a way to make them unloyal ala Mass Effect 2, or if there's another Virmire situation, they're doneso.

Plus, I'm still pissed off about Horizon.

[CptData]

Kratan wrote...

PhantomSpectre wrote...

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

Not at all.

Agreed. If there's a way to make them unloyal ala Mass Effect 2, or if there's another Virmire situation, they're doneso.

Plus, I'm still pissed off about Horizon.

Nah, I'm not. And even with knowledge of that spoilery stuff my Shepard trusts them. He just needs to regain Ashley's (or Kaidan's) trust and loyalty again. It works for me.

[Kratan]

CptData wrote...

Kratan wrote...

PhantomSpectre wrote...

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

Not at all.

Agreed. If there's a way to make them unloyal ala Mass Effect 2, or if there's another Virmire situation, they're doneso.

Plus, I'm still pissed off about Horizon.

Nah, I'm not. And even with knowledge of that spoilery stuff my Shepard trusts them. He just needs to regain Ashley's (or Kaidan's) trust and loyalty again. It works for me.

I didn't read the leak, but I got a gist of the spoilers. I guess it was wayyy too vague to even draw conclusions at this point, but they better have a pretty redemptive speech for Shepard come Mass Effect 3.

I mean, they've been completely hot-and-cold so far. It's "I love you" in ME1, "You're a traitor to me" on Horizon, then "I loved you" in the email. I thought Shepard's crew consisted of hardened soldiers, not hormonal teenagers whose feelings for Shepard change every week.

[Xilizhra]

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

Ashley hasn't been a squadmate for some time. I'm going to have to build that up again.

Or it could be like putting on a glove again. Same as it was made to be for Tali and Garrus in ME2 and Liara in LoTSB.

The time lag there (while Shepard was conscious, at any rate) was vastly shorter.

[CptData]

Kratan wrote...

CptData wrote...

Kratan wrote...

PhantomSpectre wrote...

Dariustwinblade wrote...

Any ways to those who read the spoiler do you trust the VS.

Not at all.

Agreed. If there's a way to make them unloyal ala Mass Effect 2, or if there's another Virmire situation, they're doneso.

Plus, I'm still pissed off about Horizon.

Nah, I'm not. And even with knowledge of that spoilery stuff my Shepard trusts them. He just needs to regain Ashley's (or Kaidan's) trust and loyalty again. It works for me.

I didn't read the leak, but I got a gist of the spoilers. I guess it was wayyy too vague to even draw conclusions at this point, but they better have a pretty redemptive speech for Shepard come Mass Effect 3.

I mean, they've been completely hot-and-cold so far. It's "I love you" in ME1, "You're a traitor to me" on Horizon, then "I loved you" in the email. I thought Shepard's crew consisted of hardened soldiers, not hormonal teenagers whose feelings for Shepard change every week.

I think it's understandable. In ME1 you can romance Ash/Kaidan. Everything is fine - then Shepard died. But it looks as if s/he faked death and worked for Cerberus for two years now - at least that's what the VS believes on Horizon. Don't you think Kaidan/Ashley has a valid reason to be mad at Shepard? S/he's working for terrorists and never contacted the VS.

The message after Horizon was sent by the VS because s/he wanted to apologize for what s/he said to Shepard and why s/he didn't listen. Ash/Kaidan tries to repair whatever is left of the relationship - it can be seen as a try keep a door open.

It's up to you if you want to go for the VS trust again in ME3 or if not. I'll do so.

[Slayer299]

@CptData - Sure, its very understandable for the VS to be angry at Shepard, but there's the whole line of "I spent the last two years in a coma...." and the fact that something has to be up especially if you have Mordin/Grunt/Garrus combination only with you, that alone should have twigged the VS that *something* was off if Shep was working for Cerberus., undying trust wasn't expected or necessary.

I do think Kratan is right though about how the VS's behaviour at that meeting was hot and cold. As the VS could not give an ounce of trust to Shepard, I see no reason to return it blindly either, I would like to trust the VS again but that is a thing to be earned not just handed out on a platter for free at Halloween.

[Naamah_bb]

The point of the matter is that VS was written in a way that would keep them alive 'til ME3. I think this discussion is meaningless since they were acting totally OOC because they were written that way. For a reason. Sheps dialogue with them is... pitiful at best.

[CptData]

Naamah_bb wrote...

The point of the matter is that VS was written in a way that would keep them alive 'til ME3. I think this discussion is meaningless since they were acting totally OOC because they were written that way. For a reason. Sheps dialogue with them is... pitiful at best.

You're right in a way that both (VS and Shepard) act OOC on Horizon.

But the entire event could have been done entirely different. Look at Liara. She got her own cameo in ME2 which got expanded to a full DLC with LotSB. She's part of your squad for a while - and she survives ME2 since she's not with you in the SM.
I just wonder why it wasn't possible to add something similar for the VS: either a mission via VS!DLC or in vanilla game with a dialogue on the Citadel or in the Loft. There was no need to reduce the VS to one brief cameo - Kaidan or Ashley could have been involved throughout the story or in a similar way like Liara without being NOT protected by plot armor.

Whatever. Just needed to state it again.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Compare and contrast Tali and the VS. They're both very loyal to specific organizations and whom they see as their "people." Both of those people have had vicious encounters with Cerberus. And yet, the reactions that Tali and the VS have are markedly different. Of course, neither one joins Shepard immediately upon meeting her, but the VS will never do so or, seemingly, even want to. In fact, without romancing them, they make no attempt at rapproachment whatsoever. Why is this? Well, numerous reasons, but the one I'm going to focus on here is that Tali and the VS were loyal to Shepard for completely different reasons.

Disagree. Tali isn't very loyal to the Quarians. She likes the idea of the Quarian race, but she isn't committed to the group. While she certainly has them on a high bar, she will also freely put anyone she likes more than that bar before the Quarians every time. Whether allowing her own people and responsibilities to fall into the hands of hated enemies (Cerberus), or covering up acknowledged atrocities for a dead man, Tali's loyalty is far secondary to her personal affections.

Tali's loyalty to Shepard is 100% personal. They exist in completely different, and largely unfriendly, organizations. Their meeting is entirely serendipitous, and the mission they embark on together is completely out of left field as far as typical galactic events go. And thus, through these circumstances, Shepard and Tali form a bond composed solely of respect and, hopefully, friendship. Tali fights with Shepard because she wants to, because she feels it's the right thing to do for the right reasons, and with the right means and commander. Tali chooses loyalty without obligation. And that, in the end, is it.

I disagree. Tali's bond to Shepard isn't respect, it's hero worship tinged with infatuation.

This is not the case with the VS. Both of them are in the Alliance, Shepard's own military organization... and both are subordinates. When militarily assigned to the Normandy, they have to be there and have to follow Shepard's orders; they can do nothing else without being court-martialed.

This is untrue, given that Spectres are outside the chain of command. 

And they do this because they're loyal to the Alliance above all else. Now, certainly they're loyal to Shepard as a person as well; they look up to Shepard as an excellent commander. But this is just good fortune; even if they hated Shepard, they'd have to follow her. Their loyalty is based primarily on a sense of factional obligation, and it's through that paradigm that the relationship takes place.

And this misses the point that they were just as willing to betray the Alliance's orders and join Shepard to get to Ilos. They do have personal loyalty to Shepard... and that's a large part of why they react as they do on Horizon. Because they believe Shepard just left them out after all that.

Now, if we add romance to the mix, things become murkier, which is really exactly why militaries don't allow this sort of thing. Then, some of the loyalty becomes personal, but not enough to override the bonds of duty: both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to allow this to happen, and still see things within that militaristic paradigm.

Clearly they aren't pure military discipline, since the opposite gender immediately begins playing flirtaitous after Eden Prime until you rap their knuckles about discipline.

And this paradigm is exactly what cannot exist in Mass Effect 2. When that hits, the VS' previous relationship with Shepard, unless romanced, is utterly obliterated. Aside from some shared experiences in saving the galaxy, there's nothing left. The bonds of obligation are broken and Shepard is now seen as one of The Enemy; in a sad arrangement, both Ashley and Kaidan are too professional to view Shepard any other way. Even if there is romance, and thus added to the mixture a substantial amount of personal loyalty, it simply clashes with the broken professional obligation and perhaps makes things even worse. Regardless, the result is disastrous and could probably have never been anything else.

'Bonds of obligation...'? What is that supposed to mean: that if you like someone, you have to support them over all else?

Neither unromanced person sees Shepard as the Enemy. They see Cerberus as the enemy, which they're very clear about, and think you're mistaken in allying with them. But even so, they both wish you success.

So come Mass Effect 3... in an ironic twist, the VS, the surviving squadmate who was with Shepard the earliest, is also the squadmate least close to Shepard... I daresay even if there was a romance. Every other squadmate was loyal to Shepard for personal reasons; Jacob and Miranda may have blurred it with Cerberus, but Shepard was never really a member of Cerberus, and given the dissolution of Cerberus as a possibly friendly organization, factional obligation isn't really a problem anymore anyway. Everyone else agreed to work with Shepard for their own personal reasons, and became loyal to Shepard, personally, for personal reasons. And with factions breaking, fading, and backstabbing their own members, personal loyalty is the type of loyalty that would seem to be the most solid. Thus, the VS has, through no real fault of their own, fallen into a dark shadow in the path that Shepard takes, and is probably the squadmate most likely to be torn by conflicting loyalties... and all we can do is hope that they're not simply torn to shreds.

Loyalty is a two-way street, and Shepard needs to deserve it as well before there can be 'conflict' of loyalties. The VS wants to believe in Shepard, but Shepard has continually fumbled giving them a reason to remain it after ME1.

More to the point, though, you're rather misusing the concept of loyalty in how it applied to everyone else. 'Loyalty' itself was a mechanic, not a literalism. In the context of the game, it was synonymous with 'focus': clearing their heads of distractions, letting them be focused on the mission ahead. There was gratitude to Shepard, but few of the people on the team were loyal to Shepard in the sense of putting Shepard above other loyalties and their own beliefs. After the mission the team disbanded and dispersed, and Shepard's pull vanished.

[CptData]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

*snip*

So come Mass Effect 3... in an ironic twist, the VS, the surviving squadmate who was with Shepard the earliest, is also the squadmate least close to Shepard... I daresay even if there was a romance. Every other squadmate was loyal to Shepard for personal reasons; Jacob and Miranda may have blurred it with Cerberus, but Shepard was never really a member of Cerberus, and given the dissolution of Cerberus as a possibly friendly organization, factional obligation isn't really a problem anymore anyway. Everyone else agreed to work with Shepard for their own personal reasons, and became loyal to Shepard, personally, for personal reasons. And with factions breaking, fading, and backstabbing their own members, personal loyalty is the type of loyalty that would seem to be the most solid. Thus, the VS has, through no real fault of their own, fallen into a dark shadow in the path that Shepard takes, and is probably the squadmate most likely to be torn by conflicting loyalties... and all we can do is hope that they're not simply torn to shreds.

Loyalty is a two-way street, and Shepard needs to deserve it as well before there can be 'conflict' of loyalties. The VS wants to believe in Shepard, but Shepard has continually fumbled giving them a reason to remain it after ME1.

More to the point, though, you're rather misusing the concept of loyalty in how it applied to everyone else. 'Loyalty' itself was a mechanic, not a literalism. In the context of the game, it was synonymous with 'focus': clearing their heads of distractions, letting them be focused on the mission ahead. There was gratitude to Shepard, but few of the people on the team were loyal to Shepard in the sense of putting Shepard above other loyalties and their own beliefs. After the mission the team disbanded and dispersed, and Shepard's pull vanished.

Just need to quote myself:

CptData wrote...

Trust is like respect. No one deserves it before earning it by hard work.
- Commander Shepard, fictional quote, Mass Effect

I think this "quote" speaks for itself ... and it applies extremely well on Shepard and the VS.

[Xilizhra]

Disagree. Tali isn't very loyal to the Quarians. She likes the idea of the Quarian race, but she isn't committed to the group. While she certainly has them on a high bar, she will also freely put anyone she likes more than that bar before the Quarians every time. Whether allowing her own people and responsibilities to fall into the hands of hated enemies (Cerberus), or covering up acknowledged atrocities for a dead man, Tali's loyalty is far secondary to her personal affections.

In the case of Veetor, Tali really can't do much about it if Shepard grabs him, and in joining the Normandy crew, the quarians themselves don't really lose anything. Ditto for the Alarei thing, which I don't believe would truly help anyone by revealing.

I disagree. Tali's bond to Shepard isn't respect, it's hero worship tinged with infatuation.

If you like, though I wouldn't call it so shallow.

This is untrue, given that Spectres are outside the chain of command.

Initially so. This fades after Shepard becomes a Spectre, but the general idea of the relationship is still present in their mind.

And this misses the point that they were just as willing to betray the Alliance's orders and join Shepard to get to Ilos. They do have personal loyalty to Shepard... and that's a large part of why they react as they do on Horizon. Because they believe Shepard just left them out after all that.

I mentioned this. It's for the greater good of the Alliance. There is personal loyalty, yes, it's just somewhat overridden.

Clearly they aren't pure military discipline, since the opposite gender immediately begins playing flirtaitous after Eden Prime until you rap their knuckles about discipline.

Probably because of the Spectre thing.

'Bonds of obligation...'? What is that supposed to mean: that if you like someone, you have to support them over all else?

Neither unromanced person sees Shepard as the Enemy. They see Cerberus as the enemy, which they're very clear about, and think you're mistaken in allying with them. But even so, they both wish you success.

The bonds of obligation from Shepard being a military superior.

Loyalty is a two-way street, and Shepard needs to deserve it as well before there can be 'conflict' of loyalties. The VS wants to believe in Shepard, but Shepard has continually fumbled giving them a reason to remain it after ME1.

True enough.

More to the point, though, you're rather misusing the concept of loyalty in how it applied to everyone else. 'Loyalty' itself was a mechanic, not a literalism. In the context of the game, it was synonymous with 'focus': clearing their heads of distractions, letting them be focused on the mission ahead. There was gratitude to Shepard, but few of the people on the team were loyal to Shepard in the sense of putting Shepard above other loyalties and their own beliefs. After the mission the team disbanded and dispersed, and Shepard's pull vanished.

I may revise my final statement to "least close to Shepard on the permanent squad," then. Aside from Vega, et al.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard's death resets the relationship, the VS hasn't done much to gain trust either.

you know besides stay in the alliance and rise in the ranks like a real soldier would to have some pull when shepard returned to action after being detained. There's that.

That's to the Alliance, not me and not necessarily the Reaper war. They weren't one and the same before.

Did you miss the mention of having pull that could be used?

One would presume in this case that it could be used for you, in the Reaper War.