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[Xilizhra]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

ADLegend21 wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

If Shepard's death resets the relationship, the VS hasn't done much to gain trust either.

you know besides stay in the alliance and rise in the ranks like a real soldier would to have some pull when shepard returned to action after being detained. There's that.

That's to the Alliance, not me and not necessarily the Reaper war. They weren't one and the same before.

Did you miss the mention of having pull that could be used?

One would presume in this case that it could be used for you, in the Reaper War.

So will they use it, then? It should be interesting to see.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Disagree. Tali isn't very loyal to the Quarians. She likes the idea of the Quarian race, but she isn't committed to the group. While she certainly has them on a high bar, she will also freely put anyone she likes more than that bar before the Quarians every time. Whether allowing her own people and responsibilities to fall into the hands of hated enemies (Cerberus), or covering up acknowledged atrocities for a dead man, Tali's loyalty is far secondary to her personal affections.

In the case of Veetor, Tali really can't do much about it if Shepard grabs him, and in joining the Normandy crew, the quarians themselves don't really lose anything. Ditto for the Alarei thing, which I don't believe would truly help anyone by revealing.

Tali can fight, even if she thinks she will lose: the prospect of danger alone isn't cause to abandon a mission. Tali could go with Veetor, to monitor his treatment and insure his safety. Tali can take Shepard's offer at the time.

And yet, the Quarians do lose something when Tali joins Shepard's crew. For one thing, they lose one of 'the best of the best.' For another, they've exposed themselves to the risk of a political hostage of high value by trusting Cerberus won't betray her/Shepard. They also lose everything they lose to a stronger Cerberus which was benefited by Tali. And at the Alarai they certainly lose the opportunity to set a healthy precedent and correction to the destructive political shinanigans that were going on.

But what they lose is less important than to where Tali's loyalties lie: to her captain even if he/she allies with enemies of the Quarian race, not the flotilla.

I disagree. Tali's bond to Shepard isn't respect, it's hero worship tinged with infatuation.

If you like, though I wouldn't call it so shallow.

No, you wouldn't, but that doesn't change what it is.

This is untrue, given that Spectres are outside the chain of command.

Initially so. This fades after Shepard becomes a Spectre, but the general idea of the relationship is still present in their mind.

You can't have it both ways, Xilhara.

I mentioned this. It's for the greater good of the Alliance. There is personal loyalty, yes, it's just somewhat overridden.

By this standard, any character who picks Shepard over the professional obligations is still 'for the greater good of the group' rather than Shepard.

This is a position that is impossible to disprove. If they follow the group over Shepard, it proves their loyalty to the group. If they follow Shepard over the group, they're still just loyalt to the group.

Probably because of the Spectre thing.

Since Shepard isn't a Spectre until after the first two flirts... no.

I may revise my final statement to "least close to Shepard on the permanent squad," then. Aside from Vega, et al.

If that makes you feel better, but the mechanic never described the personal relationship the ME2 characters had with Shepard. Some were personally loyal. Others were not. Loyalty status had nothing to do with it.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

So will they use it, then? It should be interesting to see.

Why wouldn't they?

[Naamah_bb]

CptData wrote...

You're right in a way that both (VS and Shepard) act OOC on Horizon.

But the entire event could have been done entirely different. Look at Liara. She got her own cameo in ME2 which got expanded to a full DLC with LotSB. She's part of your squad for a while - and she survives ME2 since she's not with you in the SM.
I just wonder why it wasn't possible to add something similar for the VS: either a mission via VS!DLC or in vanilla game with a dialogue on the Citadel or in the Loft. There was no need to reduce the VS to one brief cameo - Kaidan or Ashley could have been involved throughout the story or in a similar way like Liara without being NOT protected by plot armor.

Whatever. Just needed to state it again.

I wholeheartedly agree with you, it's just pointless to debate this for the gazillionth time since it's water under the bridge now...

[Xilizhra]

Tali can fight, even if she thinks she will lose: the prospect of danger alone isn't cause to abandon a mission. Tali could go with Veetor, to monitor his treatment and insure his safety. Tali can take Shepard's offer at the time.

It's one against three. It's not the prospect of danger, but of potential instant death if Shepard is willing to act that way. And she's sort of pulled away from this by, well, duty.

And yet, the Quarians do lose something when Tali joins Shepard's crew. For one thing, they lose one of 'the best of the best.' For another, they've exposed themselves to the risk of a political hostage of high value by trusting Cerberus won't betray her/Shepard. They also lose everything they lose to a stronger Cerberus which was benefited by Tali. And at the Alarai they certainly lose the opportunity to set a healthy precedent and correction to the destructive political shinanigans that were going on.

I'm not sure what that last one has to do with Tali. The political hostage risk is present, but Tali correctly deems that it won't happen. And Tali can still benefit the Migrant Fleet by working against the Reapers here: if nothing else, she provides vital shield data for the Normandy.

You can't have it both ways, Xilhara.

Nuance.

This is a position that is impossible to disprove. If they follow the group over Shepard, it proves their loyalty to the group. If they follow Shepard over the group, they're still just loyalt to the group.

I think it's important that they have Anderson's approval, the highest military officer who actually knows what's going on. And they're not doing anything against the Alliance's own interests. This position would be disproven if they did join or at least help Shepard when Shepard's with Cerberus.

Since Shepard isn't a Spectre until after the first two flirts... no.

I must be missing something, because Kaidan only started flirting at all after Therum for me. Is it different for Ashley?

[CptData]

Xilizhra wrote...

I must be missing something, because Kaidan only started flirting at all after Therum for me. Is it different for Ashley?

She starts flirting with Shepard just after he wakes up from his 15 hour sleep if you pick the paragon options. At least her slightly flirty smile gives me that idea.

[Dean_the_Young]

Xilizhra wrote...

Tali can fight, even if she thinks she will lose: the prospect of danger alone isn't cause to abandon a mission. Tali could go with Veetor, to monitor his treatment and insure his safety. Tali can take Shepard's offer at the time.

It's one against three. It's not the prospect of danger, but of potential instant death if Shepard is willing to act that way. And she's sort of pulled away from this by, well, duty.

It's one against three with her accompanying Veetor and doing her job?

I'm not sure what that last one has to do with Tali. The political hostage risk is present, but Tali correctly deems that it won't happen. And Tali can still benefit the Migrant Fleet by working against the Reapers here: if nothing else, she provides vital shield data for the Normandy.

Of course it has to do with Tali. She's the hostage. That it doesn't happen is the same 'correctly deems' of her desire to sleep with Shepard in open air at the risk of dying: it's a needless risk.

Tali doesn't need to be part of Shepard's crew in a Cerberus cell in order to give Cerberus shield technology.

This is a position that is impossible to disprove. If they follow the group over Shepard, it proves their loyalty to the group. If they follow Shepard over the group, they're still just loyalt to the group.

I think it's important that they have Anderson's approval, the highest military officer who actually knows what's going on. And they're not doing anything against the Alliance's own interests. This position would be disproven if they did join or at least help Shepard when Shepard's with Cerberus.

They did help Shepard. The vouched for Shepard and Cerberus in this manner, which convinced the Alliance to tolerate Shepard's ongoing cooperation with Cerberus upto Arrival.

I must be missing something, because Kaidan only started flirting at all after Therum for me. Is it different for Ashley?

They'll start batting eyes in the first conversation on the Normandy after receiving the vision, and then there's a 'start romance' scene you can get if you go to the Wards and look where the DA passes by.

[Iakus]

CptData wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I must be missing something, because Kaidan only started flirting at all after Therum for me. Is it different for Ashley?

She starts flirting with Shepard just after he wakes up from his 15 hour sleep if you pick the paragon options. At least her slightly flirty smile gives me that idea.

I don't see that as flirting so much as realization that the door was open to flirting.

Now the scene in the wards, that was flirting, even if unintentional flirting.

[CptData]

iakus wrote...

CptData wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

I must be missing something, because Kaidan only started flirting at all after Therum for me. Is it different for Ashley?

She starts flirting with Shepard just after he wakes up from his 15 hour sleep if you pick the paragon options. At least her slightly flirty smile gives me that idea.

I don't see that as flirting so much as realization that the door was open to flirting.

Now the scene in the wards, that was flirting, even if unintentional flirting.

Okay, maybe you're right. If the scene at medbay is considered as "opening the door" then the scene just after that one can be considered as "first flirty exchange".

Ash isn't waiting too long, hmm?