85 réponses à ce sujet

[bleetman]

thats1evildude wrote...

But she would not have encountered Audacity had she not come to Sundermount. And since Marethari moved the clan to Sundermount to await Hawke's arrival, it's possible that Merrill would never have become a blood mage had Flemeth never given her amulet to Hawke.

That's... a good point, yes.

Hmmm.

[jlb524]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke could still have met her at Sundermount, had she not dealed with Audacity.

She wouldn't have left the clan with Hawke.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Hawke could still have met her at Sundermount, had she not dealed with Audacity.

Why would she?  If Merril had not dealt with Audicity, she would still be Meretheri's First, and the Dalish would not permit their First (heir apparent) to risk themselves with a bunch of dangerous shemlem.  Having the Keeper do it is one thing.  She is old, wise, powerful, and dealing with outsiders is part of a keeper's duty (especially when dealing with such powerful beings as Flemeth).  [Which is not to say that concealed Dalish wouldn't be keeping tabs on the Shemlen the entire time.]

Given that, if Merril were still Merethari's first, Merethari would have done the ritual, not Merrill.

-Polaris

[esper]

I think the problem is the Mirror. Merrill would have picked the shard up no matter what, but without Audacity she might have ended up tainted or summoned a demon in the Fade, I suppose. So the real question should be: Would Merrill have been happier if Tamlen and Mahariel never had gone into the acient ruin.

[EmperorSahlertz]

If the Warden can meet Lanaya when visiting Zathrian's clan (and the rest of the clan for that matter), I don't see why Hawke wouldn't have met Merrill, especially since he still met the rest of the clan. Wether or not a romance would develop I can't say. But to be super-cheesy, love finds a way, especially in fiction.

Besides, Audacity was not the thing that brought Merrill and Hawke together anymore, than it was the thing that got Merrill killed.

[IanPolaris]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Warden can meet Lanaya when visiting Zathrian's clan (and the rest of the clan for that matter), I don't see why Hawke wouldn't have met Merrill, especially since he still met the rest of the clan. Wether or not a romance would develop I can't say. But to be super-cheesy, love finds a way, especially in fiction.

Besides, Audacity was not the thing that brought Merrill and Hawke together anymore, than it was the thing that got Merrill killed.

Lanaya is a special case since she is meeting the Warden under the direct gaze of her keeper (and by his request).  In this paticular clan, Zathrian (wisely) delegates his diplomatic duties to his apprentice who is much better suited for it.  Even so, you don't see Lanaya leaving the clan or doing very dangerous things.  I just don't see it.  Even if you do have a line of conversation with Merrill, there would be no reason for her to leave her clan unless/until Meretheri kicks her out.

-Polaris

[thats1evildude]

esper wrote...

I think the problem is the Mirror. Merrill would have picked the shard up no matter what, but without Audacity she might have ended up tainted or summoned a demon in the Fade, I suppose. So the real question should be: Would Merrill have been happier if Tamlen and Mahariel never had gone into the acient ruin.

To what extent, however, was Merrill's obsession with repairing the Eluvian the result of her dealings with Audacity? Had she never encountered the demon, perhaps she never would have gotten the idea that the mirror could be repaired. It would simply be a sad memento reminding Merrill of her fallen friend.

Hawke has a positive effect on the lives of many people, but it's likely that Merrill's clan (and possibly Merrill herself) would be a lot better off if Hawke had never struck his/her bargain with Flemeth.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:31 .

[esper]

thats1evildude wrote...

esper wrote...

I think the problem is the Mirror. Merrill would have picked the shard up no matter what, but without Audacity she might have ended up tainted or summoned a demon in the Fade, I suppose. So the real question should be: Would Merrill have been happier if Tamlen and Mahariel never had gone into the acient ruin.

To what extent, however, was Merrill's obsession with repairing the Eluvian the result of her dealings with Audacity? Had she never encountered the demon, perhaps she never would have gotten the idea that the mirror could be repaired. It would simply be a sad memento reminding Merrill of her fallen friend.

Hawke has a positive effect on the lives of many people, but it's likely that Merrill's clan (and possibly Merrill herself) would be a lot better off if Hawke had never struck his/her bargain with Flemeth.

She picked the mirror up already in Fereldan to find Tamlen and Mahariel. Without Audacity she would likely had gotten tainted or exiled as she would sooner or later had tried something with it.
We can agree on the clan, though. It was though luck for them all way around.

[thats1evildude]

I'm not sure the taint was an issue anymore. Duncan dispelled it when he smashed the Eluvian.

[EmperorSahlertz]

IanPolaris wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Warden can meet Lanaya when visiting Zathrian's clan (and the rest of the clan for that matter), I don't see why Hawke wouldn't have met Merrill, especially since he still met the rest of the clan. Wether or not a romance would develop I can't say. But to be super-cheesy, love finds a way, especially in fiction.

Besides, Audacity was not the thing that brought Merrill and Hawke together anymore, than it was the thing that got Merrill killed.

Lanaya is a special case since she is meeting the Warden under the direct gaze of her keeper (and by his request).  In this paticular clan, Zathrian (wisely) delegates his diplomatic duties to his apprentice who is much better suited for it.  Even so, you don't see Lanaya leaving the clan or doing very dangerous things.  I just don't see it.  Even if you do have a line of conversation with Merrill, there would be no reason for her to leave her clan unless/until Meretheri kicks her out.

-Polaris

Marethari would probably still send Merrill along with Hawke up Sundermount, since Merrill was needed to recite the prayer. So it would require that Merrill fell in love with Hawke in that time. I'm not saying that it is realistic, just that Merrill would've met Hawke regardless of her dealing with Audacity.

[jlb524]

esper wrote...
So the real question should be: Would Merrill have been happier if Tamlen and Mahariel never had gone into the acient ruin.

Yes and no.

Yes:  Because her clan would be okay...putting the Blight aside as that would be a minor hangup as they can flee it.  Because Tamlen would be alive or Mahariel would still be in the clan.

No:  I think Merrill leaving the clan was a good thing for her personally as she was able to discover herself through experiencing the world outside of her duty as First....I see her story as being one of self-discovery underneath all the Dalish history/blood magic stuff.  She gets to make real friends, like possibly Hawke, Isabela, and Varric.  It's possible the knowledge gained from researching the eluvians might be beneficial someday.

Modifié par jlb524, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:40 .

[LobselVith8]

thats1evildude wrote...

I'm not sure the taint was an issue anymore. Duncan dispelled it when he smashed the Eluvian.

The elves in the Elven Ruins have been corrupted with the taint (in Witch Hunt), and Merrill mentions that Audacity taught her blood magic so she could cleanse the shard she took from Ferelden of the taint (because she didn't have a sufficient amount of lyrium to pull it off without blood magic).

[TEWR]

jlb524 wrote...

esper wrote...
So the real question should be: Would Merrill have been happier if Tamlen and Mahariel never had gone into the acient ruin.

Yes and no.

Yes:  Because her clan would be okay...putting the Blight aside as that would be a minor hangup as they can flee it.  Because Tamlen would be alive or Mahariel would still be in the clan.

No:  I think Merrill leaving the clan was a good thing for her personally as she was able to discover herself through experiencing the world outside of her duty as First....I see her story as being one of self-discovery underneath all the Dalish history/blood magic stuff.  She gets to make real friends, like possibly Hawke, Isabela, and Varric.  It's possible the knowledge gained from researching the eluvians might be beneficial someday.

Very much this.

[esper]

jlb524 wrote...

esper wrote...
So the real question should be: Would Merrill have been happier if Tamlen and Mahariel never had gone into the acient ruin.

Yes and no.

Yes:  Because her clan would be okay...putting the Blight aside as that would be a minor hangup as they can flee it.  Because Tamlen would be alive or Mahariel would still be in the clan.

No:  I think Merrill leaving the clan was a good thing for her personally as she was able to discover herself through experiencing the world outside of her duty as First....I see her story as being one of self-discovery underneath all the Dalish history/blood magic stuff.  She gets to make real friends, like possibly Hawke, Isabela, and Varric.  It's possible the knowledge gained from researching the eluvians might be beneficial someday.

You know what. I very much agree with this.

[Asch Lavigne]

So what, did Merrill go back and and pick up the mirror shards after she, Mahariel and Fenarel met Duncan in the ruins? How did she even know the mirror was Dalish? Yes, everybody knew about the mirror by the time Mahariel woke up after being brought back by Duncan but I don't remember anyone saying anything about the mirror's origins or anything. Tamlen and Mahariel had a few lines about elves living in caves and even Paivel says he knows nothing about this, so how did Merill know it was Dalish and what the mirror did? Although yes, Mahariel never asked Paivel about the mirror. (Yes I know they explained elves living underground in Witch Hunt but it was not explained at all in the Dalish opening). And if using blood magic to fix the mirror was stupid then what do we call going back to get the mirror that attracted darkspawn and infected two of her clan mates?

Also, about the mirror, in Witch Hunt Morrigan says she can use it to travel beyond the Fade and Finn says something about the Tevinter Imperium using them for communication, but in DAII Merrill says the Dalish used them for communication. Am I missing something or did Bioware rewrite the lore on this? (Also the idea of the Dalish using the mirror as phones or video phones in a medieval setting is a little silly in of itself).

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 09 novembre 2011 - 09:19 .

[Gervaise]

It still had to be one mighty big favour they owed to Flemeth to justify relocating the clan such a long way from everything they were familiar with. I wondered if in fact Flemeth was in the area when Mahariel was sick and the old magic used on them actually came from Flemeth. Did Flemeth know about the mirror and suggested that they might find answers on Sundermount?

Otherwise various things don't add up. Marethari said that recovering old law wasn't worth the life of the members of the clan. She only sent Mahariel, Merrill and Fenarel (if you ask her) back to the ruins in order to try and find Tamlen - the mirror was of secondary importance. Duncan smashed the mirror in front of Merrill because it was tainted and dangerous - she didn't object at the time. But there was a strange vibe in the air which seemed to make Tamlen a bit strange before he touched the mirror and therefore I wonder if there was some sort of demonic presence that encouraged interest in the mirror - in which case perhaps audacity did have some connection with the mirror (helped with its making in the past) and even though physically he was trapped on Sundermount, some sort of spiritual imprint was attached to it. When Mahariel left them there was no indication that the clan were actually leaving that part of the Continent altogether, just travelling north. Strangely enough first time I played Origins as a Dalish elf, I thought when we returned to the Brecilian Forest we were going to find his clan.

The clan had existed in Ferelden for the best part of 1000 years and the main concentration of the Blight was still far to the south. Other clans stayed in the area and managed to avoid the darkspawn. To change from travelling by land to a very unfamiliar form of transport on the sea, placing themselves at the mercy of the "untrustworthy" humans all the time they were on it and then place themselves in a totally unfamiliar area, again close enough to a human settlement that would place them in danger, suggests that Marethari was under a complusion to comply that overode the interests of her clan.

When you think about it, Marethari was elderly and would hand over to Merrill eventually. If she needed to fulfill a debt to Flemeth, why not instruct Merrill as to the best locations to head for and then take a small contingent of hunters with her on the journey to Sundermount, leaving Merrill and the rest of the clan to link up with other Dalish in the forest and thus have safety in numbers.

Unless of course Flemeth had already told her about the Warden treaties and that this would require more than just the sacrifice of Mahariel to fulfill it - so Marethari was trying to avoid conscription for her clan. In fact I suppose its a possibility that Flemeth needed an elven clan to fulfill her purposes so deliberately sought one out and Marethari's was the first she came across. So Marethari felt she owed a debt for being warned so she could get the clan out of Ferelden and was happy to go with Flemeth's suggestion of Sundermount. However, this would make Marethari break one promise (to the Wardens) in order to comply with another (to Flemeth). But it does seem a bit of a stretch of the imagination.

I really would like to know what hold Flemeth had over Marethari.

[TEWR]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

So what, did Merrill go back and and pick up the mirror shards after she, Mahariel and Fenarel met Duncan in the ruins? How did she even know the mirror was Dalish?

She probably didn't. At first she took it because she thought that it might be a way to find out about Tamlen and Mahariel. Then, she probably found out about its real origins after going to Sundermount, either through some lore or through Audacity.

Also, about the mirror, in Witch Hunt Morrigan says she can use it to travel beyond the Fade and Finn says something about the Tevinter Imperium using them for communication, but in DAII Merrill says the Dalish used them for communication. Am I missing something or did Bioware rewrite the lore on this? (Also the idea of the Dalish using the mirror as phones or video phones in a medieval setting is a little silly in of itself).

The Tevinter Imperium sieged Arlathan and took the Eluvians for themselves to try and unlock their power with blood magic. However, they were only ever able to unlock the communication aspect.

And it's not so silly. There are sending stones that the magi use to converse with each other over distances within the DA universe apparently, per a DG post a few weeks back.

[Asch Lavigne]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Asch Lavigne wrote...

So what, did Merrill go back and and pick up the mirror shards after she, Mahariel and Fenarel met Duncan in the ruins? How did she even know the mirror was Dalish?

She probably didn't. At first she took it because she thought that it might be a way to find out about Tamlen and Mahariel. Then, she probably found out about its real origins after going to Sundermount, either through some lore or through Audacity.

Also, about the mirror, in Witch Hunt Morrigan says she can use it to travel beyond the Fade and Finn says something about the Tevinter Imperium using them for communication, but in DAII Merrill says the Dalish used them for communication. Am I missing something or did Bioware rewrite the lore on this? (Also the idea of the Dalish using the mirror as phones or video phones in a medieval setting is a little silly in of itself).

The Tevinter Imperium sieged Arlathan and took the Eluvians for themselves to try and unlock their power with blood magic. However, they were only ever able to unlock the communication aspect.

And it's not so silly. There are sending stones that the magi use to converse with each other over distances within the DA universe apparently, per a DG post a few weeks back.

Oh, ok. I must have got confused because they never said anything about what else the mirror does, other than communication in DAII. Which you figure Merrill would know regardless of how she learned it, but again, it's never
mentioned.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 09 novembre 2011 - 09:52 .

[thats1evildude]

The knowledge on the eluvian might come in useful someday. However, I can't quite cotton to the notion that the move to Kirkwall was in Merrill's best interest.

In a best-case scenario, Merrill finds love with Hawke and stays by his/her side. But what if she doesn't? She spends the better part of a decade living in an elven slum as a shunned outcast. Her personal quest ends in the death of her mentor and potentially her clan. If Hawke supports the templars, she potentially dies at his hand, and if he supports the mages, she becomes a fugitive forced to break away from the few friends she made in Kirkwall.

Modifié par thats1evildude, 09 novembre 2011 - 10:07 .

[jlb524]

thats1evildude wrote...
In a best-case scenario, Merrill finds love with Hawke and stays by his/her side. But what if she doesn't? She spends the better part of a decade living in an elven slum as a shunned outcast. Her personal quest ends in the death of her mentor and potentially her clan. If Hawke supports the templars, she potentially dies at his hand, and if he supports the mages, she becomes a fugitive forced to break away from the few friends she made in Kirkwall.

Well, assuming she doesn't die, I still think the move to Kirkwall was good for Merrill as an individual regardless of finding love with Hawke or not (or even becoming friends with Hawke).  

In her clan she was just 'The First' and soon to be Keeper and I'm not sure if that would have given her an opportunity to grow into her own person.  She was tailored to be First and Keeper since age 4 and probably didn't have much of a childhood, if any.  In Kirkwall, she was free of that and could discover herself, though it was a long process as she couldn't really give up her past as 'The First' all that easily (i.e., the mirror).   In Act 2, when Marethari tells her that blood magic has led Merrill away from her 'true self', she asks the Keeper the rhetorical question, "And who am I?"   Merrill doesn't really know the answer to that question herself.

At the end of her personal quest, she finally realizes that she needs to start living for herself and not just her people, giving up the 'I'm a Dalish First....everything I do has to be done for the benefit of the elves" mentality.  I think moving forward, her life will get a lot better for her though we probably will never see it play out in a game.  I see the end of her DA2 quest as a new begining for Merrill (they even called it, "A New Path").

As I said, I think this theme of 'personal growth/discovery' is a strong undercurrent to Merrill's DA2 story hidden by all the talk of demons, blood magic, 'who was right?  Merrill or Marethari?', etc.  She was never given the opportunity to feel comfortable in her own skin as a natural part of growing up, so this is kind of happening in DA2.   It's too bad we probably won't get to see the outcome. 

Modifié par jlb524, 09 novembre 2011 - 10:58 .

[Dave of Canada]

Waiting for me to kill them.

[Killjoy Cutter]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

bleetman wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

1) Aravels can fly when they're pulled by halla. They're called landships, so they probably serve that function of being an actual ship on land, but they're also airships.

Say whaaaaaat?

From the codex entry on Aravels, Dalish version:

Someone once told me that humans flee when they see the sails of our aravels flying above the tops of trees. I say, good, let them flee. The humans took everything from us--our homeland, our freedom, our immortality. What's a little fear compared to all the horrors inflicted upon us? I recite the Oath of the Dales to myself each day when I sleep and when I wake: "Never again shall we submit." Never again.

The keeper says that one day the Dalish will find a home that we can call our own. But why? Why should we tie ourselves to stone constructions like the humans and the dwarves? What is wrong with the life we have now? We owe nothing to anyone, we have no master but ourselves, and we go where the halla and the gods take us. There is nothing more wonderful than sitting on an aravel as it flies through the forest, pulled by our halla. We are truly free, for the first time in our people's history. Why should we change this?

--From the journal of Taniel, clan hunter.

That is not a literal usage of "fly".

Flags and sails are said to "fly", this does not mean literal flight.

A racecar might be said to "fly" around the track, this does not mean literal flight.

It's literal flight when someone looks above the trees and sees a ship in the air.

Ah, I see what's happened now. 

It's the sails that they see flying, not the arravels. 

If it helps, construct the sentence with parentheses -- "Someone once told me that humans flee when they see the sails (of our aravels) flying above the tops of trees."

[TJPags]

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . .

[Herr Uhl]

TJPags wrote...

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . .

No halla and too lazy to move their ships further?

[Kelnuin]

Merrill says something about getting sea-sick on the ship from Ferelden. If they flew, then that line would of been different.