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What was Merrill's clan doing near Kirkwall?


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#51
Killjoy Cutter

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TJPags wrote...

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . .


Merethari is under the influence of the demon in act 3. 

#52
TJPags

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Killjoy Cutter wrote...

TJPags wrote...

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . .


Merethari is under the influence of the demon in act 3. 



That's speculation for anything other than the end of Merrill's Act 3 quest.

And does nothing to explain why the clan stayed there for 7 years.

And doesn't answer my question:  are we told something in the game?

#53
TEWR

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TJPags wrote...

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . .



Marethari says that she still has business there and that the clan will only leave when her business is concluded if you talk to her in the Elven camp during Merrill's Act 3 quest. It's safe to assume what her business really was.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 novembre 2011 - 03:16 .


#54
Killjoy Cutter

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

If the Warden can meet Lanaya when visiting Zathrian's clan (and the rest of the clan for that matter), I don't see why Hawke wouldn't have met Merrill, especially since he still met the rest of the clan. Wether or not a romance would develop I can't say. But to be super-cheesy, love finds a way, especially in fiction.

Besides, Audacity was not the thing that brought Merrill and Hawke together anymore, than it was the thing that got Merrill killed.


Maybe if you're sloppy...

#55
Killjoy Cutter

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TJPags wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

TJPags wrote...

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . 


Merethari is under the influence of the demon in act 3. 


That's speculation for anything other than the end of Merrill's Act 3 quest.

And does nothing to explain why the clan stayed there for 7 years.

And doesn't answer my question:  are we told something in the game?


We don't need everything spelled out for us. 

Merethari's behavior becomes increasingly strange.  It wouldn't surprise me if she was under the influence of the demon when she told the clan that Merrill was a deadly threat to them, scaring Pol to the point that he ran back into the lair when he saw her.  At first, they stay because of the business with the amulet.  Then, they stay because of the dead Halla.  Then... something is whispering in the Keeper's ear...  ("It was always the demon's plan..."  Really, you old bat?  And who told you that, the demon?)

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 10 novembre 2011 - 03:21 .


#56
TJPags

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . .



Marethari says that she still has business there and that the clan will only leave when her business is concluded if you talk to her in the Elven camp during Merrill's Act 3 quest. It's safe to assume what her business really was.



Okay, that's an answer.  Not much of one . . . one could conclude her business is to try to save Merrill from the demon, rather than her being possessed or under the influence  . . . . but it's more than I remember.

Meh . . . .

#57
TEWR

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TJPags wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

TJPags wrote...

All speculation aside, does the game actually ever articulate a reason for the clan to still be there in Act 3? Yes, sure, they went there to escape the Blight, stayed a bit because of Flemeth.

But is any explanation actually given for whyt they never leave? I don't mean speculation by us, I mean something told to us in game.

My memory says "no" . . .which means, ultimately, there is no reason, it's just one of those things we're not supposed to think about . . . .



Marethari says that she still has business there and that the clan will only leave when her business is concluded if you talk to her in the Elven camp during Merrill's Act 3 quest. It's safe to assume what her business really was.



Okay, that's an answer.  Not much of one . . . one could conclude her business is to try to save Merrill from the demon, rather than her being possessed or under the influence  . . . . but it's more than I remember.

Meh . . . .




I forgot to mention that they had no halla and only received word from another clan by Act 3. When they began trying to establish contact with another clan I don't know, but one would think it would've been somewhere in Act 1.

So they were pretty much stranded and stuck there at the Keeper's will. I don't blame Ilen for getting fed up.


EDIT: Granted, it's my belief that Marethari became possessed as soon as one begins the quest A New Path. That is, when Merrill is asking Hawke to help her go to Sundermount.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 10 novembre 2011 - 03:34 .


#58
Killjoy Cutter

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It's my conclusion that it had to be some time before that, as Merrill seems completely convinced that the demon has become entirely unreachable remotely.

#59
Gervaise

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Once they get to Sundermount and both Marethari and Merril come under the influence of the demon, then the clan is stuck there, because clearly Marethari believes she needs to be there to prevent Merril from being harmed by the demon. The Halla is a side issue. If Marethari had wanted them to move, they could have, even without the Halla. In fact their best course would have been to take a ship back to Ferelden, particularly if Mahariel was the Warden and had asked for the boon.

I feel the clan have been very unlucky over the years. Their previous Keeper, Mahariel's father, was killed by humans, their current Keeper allows herself voluntarily to be possessed by a demon and her first abandoned them/was compelled to leave them because of the mirror (by the said Keeper), which incidentally had claimed the life of one of the clan and took another from them. Add to that, that somehow Marethari had managed to make herself indebted to Flemeth to such an extent that the entire clan was forced to uproot themselves and travel to a foreign land.

I refuse to believe that they travelled to Sundermount merely to escape the Blight, even if that is what Marethari chose to let them believe. I think the clan were badly let down by the person who was meant to be responsible for their welfare, as they themselves acknowledge after her death.

#60
Uccio

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They were standing aroud static like all the other characters in the game. No changes even years fly by.

#61
TEWR

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Ukki wrote...

They were standing aroud static like all the other characters in the game. No changes even years fly by.



That's not entirely true. Not only do more clan hunters either appear or disappear depending on events, but the positioning of the people and where they move changes for the most part.

Granted, like Kirkwall the Elven Camp doesn't really feel as alive as it should.

#62
Halie Star

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I agree with most the posters, they owed Meridith a debt.
It was hard work to win the Elves over the first time, I played the game.

#63
jlb524

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TJPags wrote...

Okay, that's an answer.  Not much of one . . . one could conclude her business is to try to save Merrill from the demon, rather than her being possessed or under the influence  . . . . but it's more than I remember.

Meh . . . .


If that was the case, why not simply tell Merrill the demon's plan instead of, ya know, letting it possess her?

#64
TEWR

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jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Okay, that's an answer.  Not much of one . . . one could conclude her business is to try to save Merrill from the demon, rather than her being possessed or under the influence  . . . . but it's more than I remember.

Meh . . . .


If that was the case, why not simply tell Merrill the demon's plan instead of, ya know, letting it possess her?


Ooh ooh me me!!

Because Marethari only found that out from Audacity, and is thus placing her trust in the word of a demon when she had been telling Merrill not to do that very thing, thus making her a hypocrite. And Audacity told her that in an attempt to get Marethari to free Audacity and allow him to possess her!

I'm willing to bet that Marethari went up to Audacity's lair at some point during Act III prior to the beginning of the quest A New Path and ordered Audacity to tell her his plan. So he said something to the effect of:

"My plan? To use the Eluvian as a portal to this mortal world and escape. You want her to live? You must free me or fight me."

And so Marethari became possessed because she admits that she couldn't fight him in the Fade and that banishing him would just make him stronger. Then she went back down the mountain and acted like everything was normal, thus putting her clan in danger. Perhaps her willpower was enough to hold it back, but it's the principle of the matter about how she neither told her clan what she was doing and that she became an Abomination.

This explains why she can still become an Abomination even if one doesn't talk to her prior to ascending Sundermount.

At least that's my take on it. I might've forgotten a few things.

One wonders why she just didn't hurl herself off the top of the mountain. Her death would've ended the threat of Audacity, and demons only respond when their life is threatened by someone else, and that's only when they are in full control of the host's body.

#65
jlb524

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The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"My plan? To use the Eluvian as a portal to this mortal world and escape. You want her to live? You must free me or fight me."


This is still what gets me...she could have just told Merrill at this point of the plan.  She could have even thrown in a threat to let the demon possess her if Merrill didn't stop working on the mirror.   But nooooooooooo!

It's almost as if she wanted to show Merrill why working on this mirror and using blood magic was bad idea (in her opinion).  

"You didn't listen to me and now I will make you pay in guilt over my death, muhahahahaha!"

Modifié par jlb524, 11 novembre 2011 - 04:36 .


#66
TEWR

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jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"My plan? To use the Eluvian as a portal to this mortal world and escape. You want her to live? You must free me or fight me."


This is still what gets me...she could have just told Merrill at this point of the plan.  She could have even thrown in a threat to let the demon possess her if Merrill didn't stop working on the mirror.   But nooooooooooo!

It's almost as if she wanted to show Merrill why working on this mirror and using blood magic was bad idea (in her opinion).  

"You didn't listen to me and now I will make you pay in guilt over my death, muhahahahaha!"




Even so, it would be the words of a demon who may have been lying through his teeth in the attempt to get freedom. There's no reason to trust a demon on something like that, because the demon is the one telling you.

And some people may say "Then why should Merrill have trusted Audacity on how to cleanse the Eluvian?". Probably because blood magic has been used on the Eluvians many times, so it's clear that blood magic is linked to the Eluvian. And because I think it's really just because Merrill needed sufficient lyrium to amplify the healing powers she learned from Marethari, but the blood magic was able to do just that.

Everything we've learned about the Eluvians points to Marethari's assertion -- which she pulled out of her ass with nothing to back it up -- being wrong.

#67
whykikyouwhy

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jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"My plan? To use the Eluvian as a portal to this mortal world and escape. You want her to live? You must free me or fight me."


This is still what gets me...she could have just told Merrill at this point of the plan.  She could have even thrown in a threat to let the demon possess her if Merrill didn't stop working on the mirror.   But nooooooooooo!

It's almost as if she wanted to show Merrill why working on this mirror and using blood magic was bad idea (in her opinion).  

"You didn't listen to me and now I will make you pay in guilt over my death, muhahahahaha!"



Taking a stab, but maybe it's simply a matter of pride - which makes sense, given the demon. A pride demon. Named Audacity (of all things).

The Keeper believed she could handle it, believed she could save people (specifically Merrill), believed it was ok for her to sacrifice herself under these conditions because she had the sheer audacity (see what I did there? Posted Image) to believe that she was capable of mastering this. So too, someone with altruistic intentions is typically not going to announce them, especially if there is some risk. It could come off as cheap, or rude, or some other negative that I cannot think of because I need more coffee. For example:

Keeper: ...Merrill...about that mirror...
Merrill: Yes? I quite like it and will continue to work on it.
Keeper: I...tried to save you from it, so I got possessed by a demon. But I did it...for you. I may die, but I want you to be happy, and alive.
Merrill: ...um, thanks?

I'm over-simplifying it, yes. But once the deal was brokered, the Keeper internalized it, and considered it her burden to bear, and hers alone. Mentioning it would admit her weakness, and potentially, in her mind, put the clan at risk because they would have tried to do something about it. She may have been trying to keep the battle solely between Audacity and herself. (Not that I agree...just posing a theory.)

And as such, perhaps this is why the clan remained on Sundermount. Because this shadow of doom was pressing down upon them and they would not be allowed to depart from there the demon was strongest.

Or, the Dalish really, really like the cheese in Kirkwall.

#68
EmperorSahlertz

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jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Okay, that's an answer.  Not much of one . . . one could conclude her business is to try to save Merrill from the demon, rather than her being possessed or under the influence  . . . . but it's more than I remember.

Meh . . . .


If that was the case, why not simply tell Merrill the demon's plan instead of, ya know, letting it possess her?

She already had told Merrill that what she was doing was foolish. Marethari did not know Merrill intended to actually free the demon until the act 3 quest, neither did Merrill know it would be neccesaty for that matter.

Marethari and her clan stayed near Kirkwall for the simple reason that it allowed Marehtari to keep an eye on Merrill.

#69
nightscrawl

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Gervaise wrote...

However, at the end of Origins, if the Warden asks for the boon of a Dalish homeland, at least one member of the clan, their foster mother, is still in Ferelden. This would seem to suggest that there had already been a difference of opinion within the clan between those who wished to remain in Ferelden (and thus benefitted from the boon) and those who sought to leave it (with Marethari and Merrill) and thus ended up stranded miles from their releatives in an extremely unsavoury location (and possible even dead depending on how you play your Hawke).     If this latter group had left all their aravals and halla with those who remained in Ferelden, that would reduce the size of the group needing passage on the ship and the following year would have been spent trying to build new aravals (plus awaiting the delivery of halla from local Dalish that never come).

You have to remember that DA2 starts off leaving Lothering. At this point in the lore, your Warden is off doing his/her own thing and hasn't yet asked for a boon of any sort. At this point is when Flemeth asks you to take the amulet to the elves outside Kirkwall.


The third alternative is some action of Flemeth, who after all knew they were going to be there. But apart from giving them safe passage to a port as she did with Hawke (and this at a time when she is still meant to be in the south meeting with the Warden for the first time), I cannot see how she could have accommplished this.

Since you have the option of having a Dalish Warden, this then makes the timeline suspect since you know for certain that they are still in Ferelden at that point. However, I am also inclined to believe that Flemeth orchestrated almost everything.

Everything about Flemeth is very vague. What she knows -- the conversations on using the amulet are fascinating -- what she doesn't know, what her various abilities are, exactly how much she is involved in all of the events you are experiencing. She is one of my favorite DA lore characters, I really hope we see more of her.


However, at the end of Origins, if the Warden asks for the boon of a Dalish homeland, at least one member of the clan, their foster mother, is still in Ferelden. This would seem to suggest that there had already been a difference of opinion within the clan between those who wished to remain in Ferelden (and thus benefitted from the boon) and those who sought to leave it (with Marethari and Merrill) and thus ended up stranded miles from their releatives in an extremely unsavoury location (and possible even dead depending on how you play your Hawke). If this latter group had left all their aravals and halla with those who remained in Ferelden, that would reduce the size of the group needing passage on the ship and the following year would have been spent trying to build new aravals (plus awaiting the delivery of halla from local Dalish that never come).

Merrill's clan isn't the only Dalish clan in Ferelden. We know of at least one other clan in the Brecellian Forest from DAO, and others from DAA and DLC. Indeed, any DAO player who does not make a Dalish elf might just assume that the boon referrs to those elves, which is what I did until I actually made a Dalish elf the first time and learned that they weren't Zathrian's clan. Therefore, the boon would apply to Zathrian's clan, any who stayed behind from Merrill's clan, as well as any other clans that can potentially benefit from the boon.

Also, regarding the halaa, from some ambient dialogue by the elves in the camp it makes it seem as if the halaa were lost somehow, rather than left behind. One of the women makes a regretful comment about the halaa, and someone replies that they "can get more halaa," perhaps suggesting that some mistake on her part lead to the loss. I think Merrill also specifically mentions that they lost their halaa, making them particularly vulnerable.

I do think that the devs should have had them acquire some halaa at some point between Acts, making Marethari's decision to stay even more pivotal and telling, rather than just having them be stranded without halaa. In Act 2 or 3 when you speak to them, Merrill asks why they are still there and that they should "have left ages ago." If they had gotten more halaa, this might make more sense.

Modifié par nightscrawl, 11 novembre 2011 - 01:25 .


#70
TEWR

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EmperorSahlertz wrote...

jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Okay, that's an answer.  Not much of one . . . one could conclude her business is to try to save Merrill from the demon, rather than her being possessed or under the influence  . . . . but it's more than I remember.

Meh . . . .


If that was the case, why not simply tell Merrill the demon's plan instead of, ya know, letting it possess her?

She already had told Merrill that what she was doing was foolish. Marethari did not know Merrill intended to actually free the demon until the act 3 quest, neither did Merrill know it would be neccesaty for that matter.

Marethari and her clan stayed near Kirkwall for the simple reason that it allowed Marehtari to keep an eye on Merrill.


Merrill never intended to free Audacity. She makes it very clear to a Hawke that chooses the aggressive option that that is not her intention.

Wanting to talk with the trapped demon doesn't mean she's going to free it, especially when she tells Hawke she's not going to.

#71
EmperorSahlertz

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Wether or not she intended to, she knew she risked it. And since Audacity was a rather powerful Pride Demon (apparently), she also knew there was a very high risk of it happening. Hence why she wanted Hawke to tag along.

#72
Gervaise

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I realised that the boon didn't just apply to Mahariel's clan but all the Dalish, particularly those who helped against the Archdemon. Whilst the Warden only deals directly with Zathrian's clan, I formed the impression that they had in turn contacted other Dalish they knew of, which is why the elven contribution is seen as so significant. However, if Mahariel is the Warden, then you would imagine they would feel particularly satisfied that their efforts had helped their clan, particularly bearing in mind how sadly the whole affair had started off. The other strange thing is that the Warden can say that they intend to return to their clan and in Origins there is no indication that this will not be possible or they will have to travel to the Freemarches in order to do so. So I presume this was another one of the of those things that didn't really transfer properly from Origins to DA2.

I actually didn't take this option as Mahariel was in a romance with Zevran and I didn't think he would settle to Dalish life, plus Mahariel had changed views somewhat about the outside world and wanted to explore it some more. Was there any indication at the end of Awakening that Mahariel couldn't return to their clan, if that is what they had intended to do?

#73
Killjoy Cutter

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jlb524 wrote...

TJPags wrote...

Okay, that's an answer.  Not much of one . . . one could conclude her business is to try to save Merrill from the demon, rather than her being possessed or under the influence  . . . . but it's more than I remember.

Meh . . . .


If that was the case, why not simply tell Merrill the demon's plan instead of, ya know, letting it possess her?


Thus my conclusion that the demon manipulated Merethari far more successfully than it ever manipulated Merrill. 

#74
Killjoy Cutter

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jlb524 wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

"My plan? To use the Eluvian as a portal to this mortal world and escape. You want her to live? You must free me or fight me."


This is still what gets me...she could have just told Merrill at this point of the plan.  She could have even thrown in a threat to let the demon possess her if Merrill didn't stop working on the mirror.   But nooooooooooo!

It's almost as if she wanted to show Merrill why working on this mirror and using blood magic was bad idea (in her opinion).  

"You didn't listen to me and now I will make you pay in guilt over my death, muhahahahaha!"


The pride demon was manipulating and twisting Merethari's pride.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 11 novembre 2011 - 10:25 .


#75
AbsolutGrndZer0

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I was just replaying the game, and if you ask the right questions during the "investigate" options, they specifically state they are waiting for Hawke to arrive with the amulet because "Asha'bellanar" did a favor for Marethari and this is HER payback.  Then as for why they stay so long, well.. That's easy. She is waiting for Merril to hopefully come to her senses and return.