67 réponses à ce sujet

[EmperorSahlertz]

You don't even see the Templars arrive... How do you know the mages didn't sink some of the Templars' boats? Besides, even if they tried, who is to say that the Templars didn't simply ward their boats with both their own spells and anti-magic runes? Also, the funnel isn't utilized both because the mages are terrified of fighting Templars and tries to run away, as you can even see in the cutscene, and because the Templars probably silenced the frontline of mages before they had a chance to utilize it...

There is of course also the fact that not all mages even know combat magic, and the ones in the cutscene may be some of the ones who don't.

Modifié par EmperorSahlertz, 11 novembre 2011 - 05:01 .

[TEWR]

[quote]EmperorSahlertz wrote...

You don't even see the Templars arrive... How do you know the mages didn't sink some of the Templars' boats?[/quote]
 
Since Orsino -- and depending on player choices Hawke and Anders and for me Merrill -- are leading the mages in that particular scenario, that seems like something that those three would make clear as an order to their troops.


[quote]
Besides, even if they tried, who is to say that the Templars didn't simply ward their boats with both their own spells and anti-magic runes? [/quote]


The only "anti-magic runes" I've seen are those that increase magical resistance. That doesn't mean magic is nullified. It just means it's less effective. However, launch enough fireballs and a ship will burn. It's as simple as that. You'd have to use a lot of runes -- which would cost a great deal of money -- make a ship immune to all of the elements.

Also, Templar spells are not permanent. They would have to keep using those spells over and over just to reach land safely, and that would tire a great many of the troops.




[quote]Also, the funnel isn't utilized both because the mages are terrified of fighting Templars and tries to run away, as you can even see in the cutscene, and because the Templars probably silenced the frontline of mages before they had a chance to utilize it...[/quote]
[/quote]

1) You only see mages flee after Orsino goes into Harvestino mode. That's because they're scared of a giant mutant flesh golem.

2) the Funnel is in Orsino's area, and the Templars wouldn't be able to predict that the mages would use that. Launching fireballs at the entrance would take them by surpise and lead to their numbers being diminished.


[quote]
There is of course also the fact that not all mages even know combat magic, and the ones in the cutscene may be some of the ones who don't.
[/quote]

We've been over this before I believe. All magic from the trees has some usage in combat, and is thus combat magic.

Just because it doesn't damage an enemy doesn't mean it can't be used in combat. And besides, the mages are able to use their staves both in CQC and as a long-range weapon that acts as a conduit for the mage's magical energy.

The whole purpose of the Circles was that mages could train their powers for combat.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 11 novembre 2011 - 05:29 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

The purpose of the Circles was for mages to train their powers in general, not jsut for combat. And not all mages train for combat. All schools has some spells which can be used for combat sure. But not all mages learn those particular spells. Not all mages are combat mages, it really is that simple. And certainly not al mages would be trained to use their staves as CQC weapons, and even if they were, they wouldn't be of much use against the Templars.

And dispelling the magic cast at the boats would not tire the Templars anymore than it would tire the mages to keep flinging spells, so that isn't really is a moot point. Besides, it doesn't even appear that magic spells has the artillery range needed to succesfully target the boats.

And the mages DOES utilize the funnel in Orsino's last stand, hell you are there to witness it. However they aren't armed with heavy machine guns, so Templars are bopund to break through eventually, especially considering the Templars resistance to the magic the mages are dependant on.
The funnel I was talking about was the funnel up the stairs at the Templar quarters, which the mages failed to use, in that scene you see the mages fleeing from the Templars, with only a few of them fighting back. So that is the reason for that funnelpoint to fail.

[heiveldboy]

Varric: He would be suspicious, but if you prove that you can handle it and not abuse it too much he'd come aroung and allow it (maybe even defend you?)

Anders: Pretty much the same he does with Merrill, he would try to convince you to never use it again and probably go all about 'how you have no idea what you're doing to the mages' and blahblahblah (hypocrite mage... )

Fenris: Either attack you when he meets you for the first time (or with low friendship/rivalry) or don't attack if you have a pretty persuasive argument. If you use BM only later in the game (for example as your second spec) he would question you, call you names, and depending on the conversation, still try to kill you. Fact is I don't think he would ever allow it

Isabela: ooooh... sex with a blood mage... can you make my skin red as well?

Merrill: BFF for life!!! Or my darling, I love you. She would probably accept Hawke using blood magic, as she doesn't see it as evil magic. Probably use Hawke as a justification for her use of blood magic

Aveline: again it depends, she might try to kill (or want to kill you) you, as she still is a guard or the guard captian, but like Varric if you show you can be trusted and if you know her well (high friendship or rivalry) she'll come to accept it

Sebastian: the maker demands your death... but I will not risk my life because I have to avenge my parent's death... I will follow you, but secretely hope that you'll die a horrible death

Carver: disapproves like hell, but won't do anything because you're family. He could tell Leandra though, hoping she'd spank Hawke

Bethany: She would disapprove as well, but again prove you're a good person and she will accept it

Bethany and Carver would be more willing to accept it if they become wardens, since wardens allow blood magic

That's what I think they'd do

Modifié par heiveldboy, 11 novembre 2011 - 08:08 .

[DKJaigen]

The templars do not have the ability you describe emperor. they can resist magic in the way that the spell doesn't instantly kill them just wound them. they cannot dispel spells in flight like fireballs but are able to defeat stationary magic like firestorms. The greatest asset of the templars is they can prevent a mage from casting once he engages in melee. But as TEWR already said the battle makes no damn sense. Your still are better of attacking the templars while they are in a boat an disorganized then letting them get on the shore. And to be honest if a fireball reaches a boat thats mostly composed out of wood those templars will sink like a brick in their heavy armor.

But i forgive bioware as they have no military or tactical sense whatsoever

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The purpose of the Circles was for mages to train their powers in general, not jsut for combat. And not all mages train for combat. All schools has some spells which can be used for combat sure. But not all mages learn those particular spells. Not all mages are combat mages, it really is that simple. And certainly not al mages would be trained to use their staves as CQC weapons, and even if they were, they wouldn't be of much use against the Templars.

All spells in all schools can be used in combat.

Tell you what. We'll play a little game. You name a spell and I'll say how it can be used by the mages in combat. When I can't name a use for one, then we'll know that not all spells are combat ready.

And CQC combat against the Templars won't do much good? Hardly. The Templars wield weapons that can be deflected by the staff -- if it's not like the wooden looking ones that look like they might break easily-- and as I said act as a conduit for the mages' powers. That's why when a mage smacks it on someone, the element of the staff is used. It burns, tazers, freezes, poisons, or weakens the soul.

Not to mention beating someone in the head with something like a staff will daze them, if not seriously hurt them.

And dispelling the magic cast at the boats would not tire the Templars anymore than it would tire the mages to keep flinging spells, so that isn't really is a moot point. Besides, it doesn't even appear that magic spells has the artillery range needed to succesfully target the boats.

Yes it would. Being a Templar requires -- according to Alistair -- the training of a Warrior and discipline. These talents require one to summon their energy and harness it, and the Templars will get tired.

Stamina in DAII isn't just a gameplay only thing. Stamina Draughts exist to boost the stamina of the drinker. You drink those things when you get tired. And Templar abilities will tire the player. If you think that casting a special type of spell won't tire out a person in the DA universe, then you're trying to rationalize it so that the Templars can never lose.

And unless they brought a supply of stamina draughts and lyrium potions on the boats -- something I highly doubt since the Gallows are their HQ and not Kirkwall proper -- they're screwed

And the mages DOES utilize the funnel in Orsino's last stand, hell you are there to witness it. However they aren't armed with heavy machine guns, so Templars are bopund to break through eventually, especially considering the Templars resistance to the magic the mages are dependant on.

No. the point of a funnel is to prevent the attackers from escaping the funnel zone. The mages aren't making use of it. Hawke and company are because they keep the Templars in that area.

Also, a funnel allows for a person to take the attackers by surprise by hiding around the corners. This is actually something I posed as part of what the defense plan at Ostagar should've been. That is to say by sealing the lower levels of the Tower of Ishal and then posting a bunch of soldiers with crossbows in front of the door and a few on each side of the door so they could take down the Darkspawn that poured through, if any.

The Templars can only resist magical spells when they see it coming and are able to disrupt the mages' connection to the Fade, which requires them to exert energy. But if they're immediately bombarded by spells -- and the mages do in fact know Force Magic abilities since that's the most studied school at the damn Gallows -- they won't have enough time to react to it accordingly.

The funnel I was talking about was the funnel up the stairs at the Templar quarters, which the mages failed to use, in that scene you see the mages fleeing from the Templars, with only a few of them fighting back. So that is the reason for that funnelpoint to fail.

the RoA cutscene?

Eh, that scene makes no sense considering Orsino took all his charges with him. Now the only way it would make sense is if they were somewhere deep within the Gallows and only then got wind of what was happening and were trying to find Orsino.

But I doubt that was the case since Bioware has no grasp of military tactics.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 12 novembre 2011 - 05:02 .

[Ryzaki]

@Eternal Winter: Uh asking him to name a spell that can't be used for combat isn't fair considering all the spells we know (heck the only spells we know) are those specifically used by mages that are constantly fighting.

[TEWR]

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eternal Winter: Uh asking him to name a spell that can't be used for combat isn't fair considering all the spells we know (heck the only spells we know) are those specifically used by mages that are constantly fighting.

That's because the Circles exist so that mages can train their abilities for combat. The very founding of the Circles was supposedly -- I have my doubts on the validity, though the writer of this entry makes me more inclined to believe it simply because of who it is -- the result of mages not liking how their abilities were being used for menial tasks all the time.

In fact, the player can clearly see in the Magi Origin a mage learning how to handle fire and ending up releasing a fireball. Wynne even says that she taught Aneirin and made sure that he got every incantation right. Wynne even says that she lit a boy's hair on fire!

The point is that they have to be trained how to handle their powers so they don't burn down a village, and by extension they learn combat magic because that's partially why the Circles were founded.

Remember that all of the schools of magic the Circle teaches have to be sanctioned by the Chantry, and it was only with the mages that the Qunari were repelled back to Rivain.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do something. Unfortunately, the Chantry of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.

I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.

It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux, in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth from the loft.

The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

I doubt the mages would enjoy learning non-combat spells in a place that was founded so they could learn how to handle magic.

Especially when they have to fight demons all the time. You think that's going to be easy if they don't have even a rudimentary knowledge of combat spells?

The first of the two Schools of Energy, Spirit is opposed by the Primal School. It is the school of mystery, the ephemeral school. This is the study of the invisible energies which surround us at all times, yet are outside of nature. It is from the Fade itself that this magic draws its power. Students of this school cover everything from direct manipulation of mana and spell energies to the study and summoning of spirits themselves.

By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate fate for a most useful branch of study.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

Normally when someone says "everything from blah to blah" they mean from A to Z. In this case, it seems like it means from the weakest spell to the most powerful ones.

The School of Creation, sometimes called the School of Nature, is the second of the Schools of Matter, the balancing force and complement of Entropy. Creation magic manipulates natural forces, transforming what exists and bringing new things into being.
Creation requires considerable finesse, more than any other school, and is therefore rarely mastered. Those mages who have made a serious study of creation are the highest in demand, useful in times of peace as well as war.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

While this school is hard to master, it's indeed useful in war. It can heal the wounded, strengthen allies, and other things.

The first of the two Schools of Matter, Entropy is the opposing force of Creation; for this reason it is often called the School of Negation. Nothing lives without death. Time inevitably brings an end to all things in the material world, and yet in this ending is the seed of a beginning. A river may flood its banks, causing havoc, but bring new life to its floodplain. The fire that burns a forest ushers in new growth. And so it is with entropic magic that we manipulate the forces of erosion, decay, and destruction to create anew.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

This school deals specifically with hexes that can be cast on the enemy in an effort to weaken how effective they are in battle.

Even casting a sleep spell on enemies is extremely useful.

Sometimes called the School of Power, the Primal School is the second of the Schools of Energy, balanced by Spirit, and concerns the most visible and tangible forces of nature itself.
This is the magic of war: Fire, ice, and lightning. Devastation. This is what the vast majority imagines when they hear the word "magic."
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.[/i] [/i]

This is the most common magic of war, and it's uses should be obvious.

[heiveldboy]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

Ryzaki wrote...

@Eternal Winter: Uh asking him to name a spell that can't be used for combat isn't fair considering all the spells we know (heck the only spells we know) are those specifically used by mages that are constantly fighting.

That's because the Circles exist so that mages can train their abilities for combat. The very founding of the Circles was supposedly -- I have my doubts on the validity, though the writer of this entry makes me more inclined to believe it simply because of who it is -- the result of mages not liking how their abilities were being used for menial tasks all the time.

In fact, the player can clearly see in the Magi Origin a mage learning how to handle fire and ending up releasing a fireball. Wynne even says that she taught Aneirin and made sure that he got every incantation right. Wynne even says that she lit a boy's hair on fire!

The point is that they have to be trained how to handle their powers so they don't burn down a village, and by extension they learn combat magic because that's partially why the Circles were founded.

Remember that all of the schools of magic the Circle teaches have to be sanctioned by the Chantry, and it was only with the mages that the Qunari were repelled back to Rivain.

It is a truth universally acknowledged that nothing is more successful at inspiring a person to mischief as being told not to do something. Unfortunately, the Chantry of the Divine Age had some trouble with obvious truths. Although it did not outlaw magic-quite the contrary, as the Chantry relied upon magic to kindle the eternal flame which burns in every brazier in every chantry-it relegated mages to lighting candles and lamps. Perhaps occasional dusting of rafters and eaves.

I will give my readers a moment to contemplate how well such a role satisfied the mages of the time.

It surprised absolutely no one when the mages of Val Royeaux, in protest, snuffed the sacred flames of the cathedral and barricaded themselves inside the choir loft. No one, that is, but Divine Ambrosia II, who was outraged and attempted to order an Exalted March upon her own cathedral. Even her most devout Templars discouraged that idea. For 21 days, the fires remained unlit while negotiations were conducted, legend tells us, by shouting back and forth from the loft.

The mages went cheerily into exile in a remote fortress outside of the capital, where they would be kept under the watchful eye of the Templars and a council of their own elder magi. Outside of normal society, and outside of the Chantry, the mages would form their own closed society, the Circle, separated for the first time in human history.

--From Of Fires, Circles, and Templars: A History of Magic in the Chantry, by Sister Petrine, Chantry scholar.

I doubt the mages would enjoy learning non-combat spells in a place that was founded so they could learn how to handle magic.

Especially when they have to fight demons all the time. You think that's going to be easy if they don't have even a rudimentary knowledge of combat spells?

The first of the two Schools of Energy, Spirit is opposed by the Primal School. It is the school of mystery, the ephemeral school. This is the study of the invisible energies which surround us at all times, yet are outside of nature. It is from the Fade itself that this magic draws its power. Students of this school cover everything from direct manipulation of mana and spell energies to the study and summoning of spirits themselves.

By its nature an esoteric school, as most others know virtually nothing about the Fade, studies of spirit magic are often misunderstood by the general populace, or even confused for blood magic-an unfortunate fate for a most useful branch of study.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

Normally when someone says "everything from blah to blah" they mean from A to Z. In this case, it seems like it means from the weakest spell to the most powerful ones.

The School of Creation, sometimes called the School of Nature, is the second of the Schools of Matter, the balancing force and complement of Entropy. Creation magic manipulates natural forces, transforming what exists and bringing new things into being.
Creation requires considerable finesse, more than any other school, and is therefore rarely mastered. Those mages who have made a serious study of creation are the highest in demand, useful in times of peace as well as war.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

While this school is hard to master, it's indeed useful in war. It can heal the wounded, strengthen allies, and other things.

The first of the two Schools of Matter, Entropy is the opposing force of Creation; for this reason it is often called the School of Negation. Nothing lives without death. Time inevitably brings an end to all things in the material world, and yet in this ending is the seed of a beginning. A river may flood its banks, causing havoc, but bring new life to its floodplain. The fire that burns a forest ushers in new growth. And so it is with entropic magic that we manipulate the forces of erosion, decay, and destruction to create anew.
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.

This school deals specifically with hexes that can be cast on the enemy in an effort to weaken how effective they are in battle.

Even casting a sleep spell on enemies is extremely useful.

Sometimes called the School of Power, the Primal School is the second of the Schools of Energy, balanced by Spirit, and concerns the most visible and tangible forces of nature itself.
This is the magic of war: Fire, ice, and lightning. Devastation. This is what the vast majority imagines when they hear the word "magic."
--From The Four Schools: A Treatise, by First Enchanter Josephus.[/i] [/i]

This is the most common magic of war, and it's uses should be obvious.

You do realise that the only reason we only have spells that are used in war is because this is a game right? Where the warden and companions are at war? I can imagine that there are tons of practical uses for magic, like lighting the candle (though very dull), washing or cleaning something, redecorating, planting,...

[TEWR]

You do realise that the only reason we only have spells that are used in war is because this is a game right? Where the warden and companions are at war? I can imagine that there are tons of practical uses for magic, like lighting the candle (though very dull), washing or cleaning something, redecorating, planting,...

Of course I realize that, but the point is that the Circle focuses on teaching combat magic. There are undoubtedly menial tasks that the mages can probably do, but they'd also need to know how to handle the more dangerous parts about using the elements.

If they try to light a candle, they may inadvertently set fire to the room they're in. They need to know how to handle the more dangerous stuff.

[jamesp81]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The Baconer wrote...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...
Actually Circle Mages are trained in war magic and tactics. The Kirkwall Circle has refined the Force Magic school considerably because that's their primary one, at least one source says the Circle was made so they could practice combat magic and not just use their magic to light candles -- though I question the validity of this version of the Circles' origins --, and the Qunari were defeated because of the mages.

If the mages didn't practice combat magic, they wouldn't have been able to defeat the Qunari.

I question the depth of the 'war magic' and 'tactics' they're apparently teaching at the Circles. The Gallows battle cutscene shows that the mages quite clearly didn't understand an iota of either.

I see that as Bioware wanting a "super badass" RoA cutscene.

Frankly, it made no sense since Orsino gathered up all of his mages and gave a speech to them. But you are able to see a mage take out a Templar by hurling a ball of magical energy into his back and launching him into a statue, while pre-Harvestino Orsino is able to use his magic to take down a few Templars.

Granted, the mages didn't make use of the funnel or launching fireballs, firestorms, and tempests at the Templar ships, but I think that's a fault to Bioware and not the mages.

Bioware didn't handle tactics for the Arishok's near-conquest of the city very well either.

This.  In cutscenes, rule of cool takes priority over tactics.

[Killjoy Cutter]

jamesp81 wrote...
This.  In cutscenes, rule of cool takes priority over tactics.

More's the pity. 

The "rule of cool" needs to die in a fire.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

The purpose of the Circles was for mages to train their powers in general, not jsut for combat. And not all mages train for combat. All schools has some spells which can be used for combat sure. But not all mages learn those particular spells. Not all mages are combat mages, it really is that simple. And certainly not al mages would be trained to use their staves as CQC weapons, and even if they were, they wouldn't be of much use against the Templars.

All spells in all schools can be used in combat.

Tell you what. We'll play a little game. You name a spell and I'll say how it can be used by the mages in combat. When I can't name a use for one, then we'll know that not all spells are combat ready.

And CQC combat against the Templars won't do much good? Hardly. The Templars wield weapons that can be deflected by the staff -- if it's not like the wooden looking ones that look like they might break easily-- and as I said act as a conduit for the mages' powers. That's why when a mage smacks it on someone, the element of the staff is used. It burns, tazers, freezes, poisons, or weakens the soul.

Not to mention beating someone in the head with something like a staff will daze them, if not seriously hurt them.

Show me one example of warfare application of the spell Finn uses to target and reveal specifically the Lights of Arlathan.... All the spells we can learn in the game is usable in warfare, because this is a fighting game. There isn't much use for a spell which helps you clean the rafters, or assist you cook. I woudld have thought you were able to realize that.... The spells we can cast in the game is only a fraction of all the spells in existance in Thedas.

And you don't engage a superiorly armed and armored foe, who specializes in close combast, in close combat. That is just plain old stupid. That is what it would be for a run-of-the-mill mage, to engage a Templar in CQC. The mage would be slaugheterd

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And dispelling the magic cast at the boats would not tire the Templars anymore than it would tire the mages to keep flinging spells, so that isn't really is a moot point. Besides, it doesn't even appear that magic spells has the artillery range needed to succesfully target the boats.

Yes it would. Being a Templar requires -- according to Alistair -- the training of a Warrior and discipline. These talents require one to summon their energy and harness it, and the Templars will get tired.

Stamina in DAII isn't just a gameplay only thing. Stamina Draughts exist to boost the stamina of the drinker. You drink those things when you get tired. And Templar abilities will tire the player. If you think that casting a special type of spell won't tire out a person in the DA universe, then you're trying to rationalize it so that the Templars can never lose.

And unless they brought a supply of stamina draughts and lyrium potions on the boats -- something I highly doubt since the Gallows are their HQ and not Kirkwall proper -- they're screwed

What the **** are you on about? So it does tire a Templar to use his abilities, but it doesn't tire a mage? And I'M the one trying to rationalize the Templars as unbeatable? What the hell is that kind of logic? I am saying that you are wrong to state that the Templars would tire, but the mages wouldn't. They would BOTH tire, but since the Templars have superior numbers and supplies, the Templars can better afford a few tired troops than the mages...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

And the mages DOES utilize the funnel in Orsino's last stand, hell you are there to witness it. However they aren't armed with heavy machine guns, so Templars are bopund to break through eventually, especially considering the Templars resistance to the magic the mages are dependant on.

No. the point of a funnel is to prevent the attackers from escaping the funnel zone. The mages aren't making use of it. Hawke and company are because they keep the Templars in that area.

Also, a funnel allows for a person to take the attackers by surprise by hiding around the corners. This is actually something I posed as part of what the defense plan at Ostagar should've been. That is to say by sealing the lower levels of the Tower of Ishal and then posting a bunch of soldiers with crossbows in front of the door and a few on each side of the door so they could take down the Darkspawn that poured through, if any.

The Templars can only resist magical spells when they see it coming and are able to disrupt the mages' connection to the Fade, which requires them to exert energy. But if they're immediately bombarded by spells -- and the mages do in fact know Force Magic abilities since that's the most studied school at the damn Gallows -- they won't have enough time to react to it accordingly.

The mages don't "utilize" (though they do in the form of Hawke and co.) in that fight becuase they are programmed to act like a normal mage mob. You are asking for BioWare to create a totally new AI with brilliant tactical awareness, and awesome spells, just for one fight? Or they could, just as they did, allow YOU to utilize the goddamn funnel you are whinning about...

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

The funnel I was talking about was the funnel up the stairs at the Templar quarters, which the mages failed to use, in that scene you see the mages fleeing from the Templars, with only a few of them fighting back. So that is the reason for that funnelpoint to fail.

the RoA cutscene?

Eh, that scene makes no sense considering Orsino took all his charges with him. Now the only way it would make sense is if they were somewhere deep within the Gallows and only then got wind of what was happening and were trying to find Orsino.

But I doubt that was the case since Bioware has no grasp of military tactics.

He obviously only took SOME of his charges with him...

[EmperorSahlertz]

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...
This.  In cutscenes, rule of cool takes priority over tactics.

More's the pity. 

The "rule of cool" needs to die in a fire.

You of course realize that the rule of cool is the sole reason for games to even exist, yes?

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Killjoy Cutter wrote...

jamesp81 wrote...

This.  In cutscenes, rule of cool takes priority over tactics.

More's the pity. 

The "rule of cool" needs to die in a fire.

You of course realize that the rule of cool is the sole reason for games to even exist, yes?

What on earth gives you that idea? 

http://tvtropes.org/...Main/RuleOfCool

The existence of games has nothing to do with that.

[EmperorSahlertz]

Yes. We play games specifically because "Wouldn't it be awesome if you could be this sword wielding champion who slays dragons 'n ****? Well you can in this game!"

If rule of cool did not exist, all you would get would be some unimaginative bland games, with not a whole lot of cool going on. Games are BUILD on the rule of cool. "We know a dragon couldn't exist, but it looks cool!"/"We know an F16 can't make a turn like that, but it looks cool!"/"We know a rifle doesn't sound like that, but it sounds cool!"

On a sidenote: I wouldn't exactly use tvtropes as the unquestionable authority on matters like this.... On anyhitng really...

[Killjoy Cutter]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yes. We play games specifically because "Wouldn't it be awesome if you could be this sword wielding champion who slays dragons 'n ****? Well you can in this game!"

If rule of cool did not exist, all you would get would be some unimaginative bland games, with not a whole lot of cool going on. Games are BUILD on the rule of cool. "We know a dragon couldn't exist, but it looks cool!"/"We know an F16 can't make a turn like that, but it looks cool!"/"We know a rifle doesn't sound like that, but it sounds cool!"

On a sidenote: I wouldn't exactly use tvtropes as the unquestionable authority on matters like this.... On anyhitng really...

It was just a link to a definition -- if you have a link to a more concise or understandable definition of "the rule of cool", please provide.  I would say that you're applying it in a way that goes beyond its actual meaning. 

Personally, it ruins things for me when things are done "just because they're cool".  Using stupid sound effects, having cars blow up when they touch bumpers at 5mph or a bullet hits anywhere near the trunk, people being blown 30 feet through the air by hand grenades, handguns that NEVER run out of ammo, etc... is just pathetic.  I'd much rather have things that exist in real life act like they do in real life.  The dragon is a different story, as there's no real-life precedent for such a thing... it's a fictional conceit, so there's more room to play around in. 

"Wouldn't it be cool if _____?!?!" never really crosses my mind.

[TEWR]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Show me one example of warfare application of the spell Finn uses to target and reveal specifically the Lights of Arlathan.... All the spells we can learn in the game is usable in warfare, because this is a fighting game.

Suppose the Elves used the old magic to hide themselves or other things in a time of war and one couldn't see them easily. A country could capture a Dalish Elf, use his/her blood, give it to a mage, and then reveal the locations of the hiding Dalish and/or supplies.

There isn't much use for a spell which helps you clean the rafters, or assist you cook. I woudld have thought you were able to realize that.... The spells we can cast in the game is only a fraction of all the spells in existance in Thedas.

Be like Jackie Chan! Make use of unconventional things and turn them into a weapon!

Anyway, jokes aside see above where I said that the Circles focus primarily in teaching combat magic. Of course they may teach some menial task spells -- though do we actually know that they teach menial task spells? Why would a mage clean up when the Circle has its own staff that are supposed to do the cleaning and ****? -- but the point is that they teach primarily combat magic and thus all mages know how to fight at the very least on a rudimentary level.

Frankly, I doubt that any mage would want to learn about cleaning spells. Sounds kinda boring and if that's all the stuff they were learning about -- boring spells that is -- they'd be demon chow in a heartbeat. Or be made Tranquil because they're demon chow.

And you don't engage a superiorly armed and armored foe, who specializes in close combast, in close combat. That is just plain old stupid. That is what it would be for a run-of-the-mill mage, to engage a Templar in CQC. The mage would be slaugheterd

I never said that they should just go charging into the fray. I'm saying that if they are put into a CQC situation against a foe, that the CQC combat of the staves will come in handy.

Especially since there was a tome in the Circle in Witch Hunt that talked about the martial arts application of the staves.

What the **** are you on about? So it does tire a Templar to use his abilities, but it doesn't tire a mage? And I'M the one trying to rationalize the Templars as unbeatable? What the hell is that kind of logic? I am saying that you are wrong to state that the Templars would tire, but the mages wouldn't. They would BOTH tire, but since the Templars have superior numbers and supplies, the Templars can better afford a few tired troops than the mages...

Never said it wouldn't tire the mage. It would. But they have easy access to the lyrium potion stockpile since they were in the Gallows and the Templars weren't, so they could drink those potions to enhance their magic.

Perhaps at great risk since the codex on lyrium says repeated use led to the mages of old looking monstrous, but the validity of that is a bit.... circumspect.

The mages don't "utilize" (though they do in the form of Hawke and co.) in that fight becuase they are programmed to act like a normal mage mob. You are asking for BioWare to create a totally new AI with brilliant tactical awareness, and awesome spells, just for one fight? Or they could, just as they did, allow YOU to utilize the goddamn funnel you are whinning about...

For the whole game really. Idiotic AI makes the game not as fun for me when I play it in my spare time.

He obviously only took SOME of his charges with him...

that's not a sound strategy I think. Taking only a few dozen mages out of hundreds -- perhaps a couple thousand after the Starkhaven influx, not to mention what remaining Templars that sided with the mages -- is bad. That means he gave his orders to a few and the rest were like "DERP!!" when the RoA began.

He should've gathered up all of his troops and then given his orders to them.

As a poster above said, rule of cool takes priority in cutscenes.

Modifié par The Ethereal Writer Redux, 14 novembre 2011 - 04:16 .

[jamesp81]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yes. We play games specifically because "Wouldn't it be awesome if you could be this sword wielding champion who slays dragons 'n ****? Well you can in this game!"

If rule of cool did not exist, all you would get would be some unimaginative bland games, with not a whole lot of cool going on. Games are BUILD on the rule of cool. "We know a dragon couldn't exist, but it looks cool!"/"We know an F16 can't make a turn like that, but it looks cool!"/"We know a rifle doesn't sound like that, but it sounds cool!"

On a sidenote: I wouldn't exactly use tvtropes as the unquestionable authority on matters like this.... On anyhitng really...

Mostly agree with that.  I would say that the assumption that something is bad because it appears in tvtropes needs to be dispelled.  Everything is a trope of some kind.  These are the building blocks of stories.  Complaining about a story having tropes in it is like complaining that Toyota uses car parts to build their cars.

[Virginian]

The Companions should have drawn straws to see what unlucky sod was going to have to sneak into his house and kill him while he sleeps.

[EmperorSahlertz]

The Ethereal Writer Redux wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Show me one example of warfare application of the spell Finn uses to target and reveal specifically the Lights of Arlathan.... All the spells we can learn in the game is usable in warfare, because this is a fighting game.

Suppose the Elves used the old magic to hide themselves or other things in a time of war and one couldn't see them easily. A country could capture a Dalish Elf, use his/her blood, give it to a mage, and then reveal the locations of the hiding Dalish and/or supplies.

There isn't much use for a spell which helps you clean the rafters, or assist you cook. I woudld have thought you were able to realize that.... The spells we can cast in the game is only a fraction of all the spells in existance in Thedas.

Be like Jackie Chan! Make use of unconventional things and turn them into a weapon!

Anyway, jokes aside see above where I said that the Circles focus primarily in teaching combat magic. Of course they may teach some menial task spells -- though do we actually know that they teach menial task spells? Why would a mage clean up when the Circle has its own staff that are supposed to do the cleaning and ****? -- but the point is that they teach primarily combat magic and thus all mages know how to fight at the very least on a rudimentary level.

Frankly, I doubt that any mage would want to learn about cleaning spells. Sounds kinda boring and if that's all the stuff they were learning about -- boring spells that is -- they'd be demon chow in a heartbeat. Or be made Tranquil because they're demon chow.

And you don't engage a superiorly armed and armored foe, who specializes in close combast, in close combat. That is just plain old stupid. That is what it would be for a run-of-the-mill mage, to engage a Templar in CQC. The mage would be slaugheterd

I never said that they should just go charging into the fray. I'm saying that if they are put into a CQC situation against a foe, that the CQC combat of the staves will come in handy.

Especially since there was a tome in the Circle in Witch Hunt that talked about the martial arts application of the staves.

What the **** are you on about? So it does tire a Templar to use his abilities, but it doesn't tire a mage? And I'M the one trying to rationalize the Templars as unbeatable? What the hell is that kind of logic? I am saying that you are wrong to state that the Templars would tire, but the mages wouldn't. They would BOTH tire, but since the Templars have superior numbers and supplies, the Templars can better afford a few tired troops than the mages...

Never said it wouldn't tire the mage. It would. But they have easy access to the lyrium potion stockpile since they were in the Gallows and the Templars weren't, so they could drink those potions to enhance their magic.

Perhaps at great risk since the codex on lyrium says repeated use led to the mages of old looking monstrous, but the validity of that is a bit.... circumspect.

The mages don't "utilize" (though they do in the form of Hawke and co.) in that fight becuase they are programmed to act like a normal mage mob. You are asking for BioWare to create a totally new AI with brilliant tactical awareness, and awesome spells, just for one fight? Or they could, just as they did, allow YOU to utilize the goddamn funnel you are whinning about...

For the whole game really. Idiotic AI makes the game not as fun for me when I play it in my spare time.

He obviously only took SOME of his charges with him...

that's not a sound strategy I think. Taking only a few dozen mages out of hundreds -- perhaps a couple thousand after the Starkhaven influx, not to mention what remaining Templars that sided with the mages -- is bad. That means he gave his orders to a few and the rest were like "DERP!!" when the RoA began.

He should've gathered up all of his troops and then given his orders to them.

As a poster above said, rule of cool takes priority in cutscenes.

The spell Finn uses was specifically designed to reveal the Lights of Arlathan IIRC. Which kinda limits its battlefield application possibilities.

And you don't need brute force to combat a demon. Much of the time it would seema demon actually tries to outwit a mage, whenever they interact with a mage. It would seem that only rage demons and hunger demons actually try the brute force approach (and even then it isn't always). So only focusing on combat spells aren't neccesarily a good thing. Or even neccesary for that matter. Sure most, if not all, mages would learn some basic combat application of a spell, like for instance channeling through their staff, or an arcane bolt, but as I've said, not all mages are combat mages, and certainly not all would learn to use their staff as a weapn...

[Killjoy Cutter]

jamesp81 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Yes. We play games specifically because "Wouldn't it be awesome if you could be this sword wielding champion who slays dragons 'n ****? Well you can in this game!"

If rule of cool did not exist, all you would get would be some unimaginative bland games, with not a whole lot of cool going on. Games are BUILD on the rule of cool. "We know a dragon couldn't exist, but it looks cool!"/"We know an F16 can't make a turn like that, but it looks cool!"/"We know a rifle doesn't sound like that, but it sounds cool!"

On a sidenote: I wouldn't exactly use tvtropes as the unquestionable authority on matters like this.... On anyhitng really...

Mostly agree with that.  I would say that the assumption that something is bad because it appears in tvtropes needs to be dispelled.  Everything is a trope of some kind.  These are the building blocks of stories.  Complaining about a story having tropes in it is like complaining that Toyota uses car parts to build their cars.

My issues with the "rule of cool" have nothing with its status as a trope or its presence on the TVtropes website. 

[KristofCoulson]

AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote...

Actually now that you mention it, at least with DA2 we have a good reason nobody mentions a blood mage Hawke... Varric is telling this story, and if he didn't mention it to Cassandra, then... we don't hear of it.  At least that's a better explanation in character wise than the "Let's just ignore it" that DAO had. (You can find on YouTube videos of a scene added back in where Wynne confronts a Blood Mage Warden durng the Circle quest... seems it was removed because if you make the wrong choices, you end up fighting and killing Wynne, Irving, and Gregaoir which means no siding with either one, which broke the game)  As for what Gaider said at conventions, sounds fishy to me unless they'd originally not planned to let Hawke be a blood mage.. considering blood magic was a specialization in DAO, why wouldn't it be in DA2, unless they made that active decision not to allow it for Hawke?

Been awhile since I completed the game... how does Hawke learn blood magic again? From a powerful demon or from an ancient tome that's been lost of hundreds of years? Or is it because in Kirkwall it comes as naturally as breathing and everyone knows how to do it?
Not actually trying to be sarcastic, I genuinely can't remember if a demon offers it... or if you learn it somewhere.

[Killjoy Cutter]

In DA2, Hawke learns blood magic by using a specialization point on the blood magic talent tree. That's about it.

There are some "orphan" items that you can find using the Vaddin mod that indicate that at some point in the development process, there were plans for looted/quested-awarded tomes to unlock certain specializations.

Modifié par Killjoy Cutter, 14 novembre 2011 - 09:41 .

[EmperorSahlertz]

It is implied that Hawke learns it through a deal with a demon, since the demon Allue from Sebastian's act2 quest says: "I can feel the touch of my kin already upon you" (or something to that effect), if you bring a Blood Mage Hawke.