147 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

With the successful proliferation of Dragon Age lore into non-gaming media, it feels like decisions made in Dragon Age games are becoming at odds with the overarching Dragon Age lore.  Fenced-in by allegations of story streamlining and retroactive continuity, game artifacts such as game import bugs and awkward sequencing of dialogue clips, and the possibility of the existence of "canon", "prime", or other Dragon Age event timelines in other media, there is very little room left for the game player to believe that his/her choices made in Dragon Age games have had, or will have, an impact on the world of Dragon Age.

So as a gamer watching two years of investment and decision-making in Dragon Age being expanded into things that don't quite resemble my playthroughs, and watching my decisions being turned into uncharacteristic or unrequited what-ifs, I simply submit that future Dragon Age games should offer no canon-based decisions to the player.  Dispense with them, and keep the characters, story, and dialogue in line with your particular vision and intent. 

So where does a player make choices then?  Well, it would be quite a thing to see what it would be like for a blood
mage to live out the rest of the templar-mage conflict, or perhaps an assassin, or berserker, or vanguard.  Who can they meet, where might they be involved, what kind of existence can they mete out while events unfold around them.  Each build could provide enough drama, and its own set of consequences without messing with the desired canon narrative of the Dragon Age world. 

For instance, having the player constantly ostracised throughout the entire game, unable to meet with certain world leaders or keep certain companions, would keep things interesting.  Perhaps maybe certain builds will only have access to certain companions and certain angles of a conflict, and to get the "whole" picture, players will need to play through the game with different builds. Though this could probably have been given more narrative impact, you were on the right track with the way you acquired the Hawke sibling into the party.  And instead of merely choosing a dialogue option as the only way to upset a companion, perhaps using a berserker talent in the presence of a particular companion during combat would be breaking a promise you made to that companion, and now feeling betrayed, they will leave your side for good. 

So by all means, crown whomever you want as king, kill or let live whomever you want to kill or let live, and keep your lore and world intact as you see fit.  But please - when even your close do-gooder companions think almost nothing of you being a blood mage, or your penchant for resubmitting people into slavery, or your decision to be opposite of everything they stand for - those options just don't seem credible.  Don't offer them. 

Thanks for reading.

Modifié par jds1bio, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:21 .

[Atakuma]

There is no canon, all other media is separate from the games.

Modifié par Atakuma, 09 novembre 2011 - 08:46 .

[Wulfram]

Atakuma wrote...

There is no cannon, all other media is separate from the games.

The Qunari have cannon

[Atakuma]

Wulfram wrote...

Atakuma wrote...

There is no cannon, all other media is separate from the games.

The Qunari have cannon

Well played sir.

[Stanley Woo]

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

[rak72]

It seems that perhaps we are getting less choices in the game so that the "other media"can do it's thing. The game is what is important & should not suffer for the sake of the other media.

[WhiteKnyght]

Stanley Woo wrote...

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

Well said.

Also just because sequels and/or other adaptations like novels, comics, etc, have events that aren't always what the players choose, that doesn't mean they never happened in the game's world. It just means it might have happened differently or that there is a perfectly legitimate reason for it to be that way that just hasn't been explained yet.

[Asch Lavigne]

*spoilers*

I just disliked the whole "Anders was a Warden no matter what and you had Justice no matter what, but Justice was never in Kristoff, he just jumped right into Anders" thing.Just please don't auto ressurect Anders like you did with Leliana. I killed him at the end of DAII and I want him to stay dead.

Modifié par Asch Lavigne, 09 novembre 2011 - 09:55 .

[slyborg]

Hence the reason I stay away from the other media in the DA universe. My PC's stories get to stay my own.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Stanley Woo wrote...

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

I approve entirely of this position.

Each game stands alone.  If the PC is given the freedom to act in accordance with his player-designed personality within in each game, that's enough.

Accommodating player choices and the resultant consequences across games would not only be prohibitively expensive to design, but it also adds nothing to the roleplaying experience.  The only reason to allow something like that would be if the games were trying to permit on-going world-building gameplay throughout a series, and nothing we've seen from BioWare suggests this is something they do.

[jds1bio]

rak72 wrote...

It seems that perhaps we are getting less choices in the game so that the "other media"can do it's thing. The game is what is important & should not suffer for the sake of the other media.

I wouldn't accuse anyone of this right now, but arriving at a conflict of interest does seem inevitable.  Part of the challenge will be sussing out which stories are best presented in a game fashion, and which stories are best brought to life via novelization or video. 

Still, there's nothing preventing any of the non-game stories being made into a game at some point.  It happens all the time with books and movies (and their obligatory video-game tie-ins).

[jds1bio]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Accommodating player choices and the resultant consequences across games would not only be prohibitively expensive to design, but it also adds nothing to the roleplaying experience.  The only reason to allow something like that would be if the games were trying to permit on-going world-building gameplay throughout a series, and nothing we've seen from BioWare suggests this is something they do.

So does that mean that I'm kidding myself by believing that DA2 is carrying over what happened with my warden, or who was crowned royalty of Ferelden in my DA:O playthrough?  That is a small bit of world-building, no?

[Chris Priestly]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I approve entirely of this position.

Really?

Ok, who had November 9 in the "Sylvius will someday agree with what we do" pool?

[DrFumb1ezX]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I approve entirely of this position.

Really?

Ok, who had November 9 in the "Sylvius will someday agree with what we do" pool?

WOOT! That was me! Wait... Mine says 19th, not 9th... Gosh Darnit. What's the pool up to again?

[Fredvdp]

"Wait, didn't you die?" -Hawke
"I got better." -Leliana

[DrFumb1ezX]

Fredvdp wrote...

"Wait, didn't you die?" -Hawke
"I got better." -Leliana

Hawke- "Anders! But I stabbed you in back! Literally!"
Anders- "Tis' but a flesh wound."

Modifié par soccerchick, 09 novembre 2011 - 10:18 .

[Asch Lavigne]

soccerchick wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

"Wait, didn't you die?" -Hawke
"I got better." -Leliana

Hawke- "Anders! But I stabbed you in back! Literally!"
Anders- "Tis' but a flesh wound."

Hawke- "Anders! But I stabbed you in back! Literally!"
Anders - "Actually it turns out that Justice took the blow for me so here I am back and Justice free! Now where are the kittens?"

[Asdara]

I guess where the rub seems to come for me is that - being the gods of the universe and the story and the lore and all personas in it other than the one we "control" - I would think it something that could be entirely avoided if you didn't give us choices that you might have to negate later to make things go where you are ultimately taking them.

For example, just to illustrate what I'm saying in case that was hot mess up there (because I think it's already been addressed so hopefully it can't be made a point of digressive bickering):

Anders makes things go boom and then you get a choice: kill/release/accept. IF the writers have the foresight to know they are going to want him later to do something with... then just have him run away and skip letting me think I got to do something about it.

Bottom line: I can accept a lack of choice from time to time for the sake of the over all story - what is harder to take is when I have been made to feel like the choice was mine, but then later discover that wasn't actually the case (as when in DOA I can take Anders for a GW or send him off to what really seems like inevitable death at Templar hands and/or take Justice along or send him packing to what I would have thought was oblivion).

Not having a choice happens in life and we accept things we don't get to choose, because we have to. Feeling like we were given something (a choice) and then having it negated or invalidated makes us question ALL the choices we've ever been given and their importance. Feeling unimportant to the story isn't how I want to feel.

Not that I don't love the games and the stories to this point - just saying. If you know ahead of time... then couldn't this whole issue be avoided completely?

Oh, and I should say that personally I mostly regard my companion interaction choices as the most sacred ones - not so much the "who's king of such and such land" choices.  I'm just all about my relationships that way.

Modifié par Asdara, 09 novembre 2011 - 10:50 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Stanley Woo wrote...

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

I think the key is being able to plausibly develop things to a common state regardless of what decision you made. That way, your decision still stands, but the current situation is still the same.

[Tryynity]

I prefer the choices I had to make in DAO - I actually agonised over some of them - debating what was best... I stil am troubled by one and wonder if the other would be better  I was invested emotionally - dammit I even cried in some parts.

Being inserted into someone else's movie script and you are the star while being able to add to it - that is awesomeness and I hope they do it again. Even if they have to start a whole new story/universe...

Im excited about SWtoR Im wondering if they could do better than what MMO's have done so far.

I am loving DA2 in many ways - but I feel like Im carried along more in this even though choices are there to be made - I dont know if they are all that critical.... I have not finished a playthrough yet though so I cant really comment fully yet.

I understand the programming/development issues with lining games up - I wish there was a way to do it with ease.

Dragon Age Origins was very nearly THE perfect game for me - combining everything I want from a game experience - where it lacked I overlooked it easily because the experience itself was so good.

Modifié par Tryynity, 10 novembre 2011 - 06:02 .

[MKDAWUSS]

Here, where every choice matters and has lasting consequences:


[off topic image removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 10 novembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[Sarielle]

Asdara wrote...

Bottom line: I can accept a lack of choice from time to time for the sake of the over all story - what is harder to take is when I have been made to feel like the choice was mine, but then later discover that wasn't actually the case (as when in DOA I can take Anders for a GW or send him off to what really seems like inevitable death at Templar hands and/or take Justice along or send him packing to what I would have thought was oblivion).

While I actually enjoy DA2, I agree with this sentiment whole-heartedly. My Orlesian Warden ... well let's just say there wasn't much continuity with how Justice was handled, to avoid spoilers.

It makes the choices retroactively dissatisfying.

[Arthur Cousland]

My suggestion for the writers might be to plan ahead and don't make people kill-able who may possibly return later. If our choices are going to be ignored down the road, then why allow the player to make these choices in the first place?

While Anders was with my warden when they slew The Mother at the end of Awakening, I was surprised to see that Anders+Justice merged for DA2. While with a party of Nathaniel, Anders and Justice and seeing all of the banter, I would have been less surprised to see Nathaniel+Justice merging, since it was Nate who was asking Justice questions about his nature, while Anders just wanted to be a free mage: hardly one who would willingly let a spirit enter his body.

[jds1bio]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

I think the key is being able to plausibly develop things to a common state regardless of what decision you made. That way, your decision still stands, but the current situation is still the same.

Yes, that would be desirable.  But I do appreciate the challenge of getting things there and threading events and decisions between games.  Still, while devices like amnesia, resurrections, and the overall passage of time continue to be convenient starting points (or points of entry), they occasionally get in the way of maintaining continuity.