147 réponses à ce sujet

[Pygmali0n]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I approve entirely of this position.

Really?

Ok, who had November 9 in the "Sylvius will someday agree with what we do" pool?

In the absence of an exact winner are we going for closest match? Because I had the 12th of Never.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Accommodating player choices and the resultant consequences across games would not only be prohibitively expensive to design, but it also adds nothing to the roleplaying experience. 

In the pure air of the mad monk I can see your point, but too much oxygen isn't healthy Sylvius, don't you allow any a posteriori knowledge of the game world to creep in and give you a smidgeon of satisfaction? While you may sublimate your id-ego-super ego into that of each individual character, surely the actual enjoyment in doing that anchors your real identity in this dimension?

Modifié par Pygmali0n, 10 novembre 2011 - 09:30 .

[Pedrak]

Asdara wrote...

Bottom line: I can accept a lack of choice from time to time for the sake of the over all story - what is harder to take is when I have been made to feel like the choice was mine, but then later discover that wasn't actually the case (as when in DOA I can take Anders for a GW or send him off to what really seems like inevitable death at Templar hands and/or take Justice along or send him packing to what I would have thought was oblivion).

Arthur Cousland wrote...

My suggestion for the writers might be to plan ahead and don't make people kill-able who may possibly return later. If our choices are going to be ignored down the road, then why allow the player to make these choices in the first place?

This.

I'd rather have less options and see them respected entirely.

Modifié par Pedrak, 10 novembre 2011 - 10:08 .

[philippe willaume]

Hello
Well no it is not really difficult to carry choice over from one instalment to the other,
It will cost in dialogue and possible answer only when the choice needs to be referred to.

Let’s assume that the warden could have been the main char from DA2

All you needed to know was
Did do the dark ritual
Who did you romance?
Who died?
Who did you side with mage\\ templar?
Who did you side with elfe\\werewolf\\both?
Which dwarf did you back up.
The rest is lore or not known from the general public.

Now that can be carried over as a faction counter.
That can have an influence in you dealing with people or even give side quest (brought up be a different side of the protagonist)
In the spirit of the elfe\\werewolf thing outside Kirkwall in DA2

That being said each player play through is his cannon, so other media will use different cannon as the story comes from a particular playthrough (hypothetical or not), that does not makes it an absolute canon, just a different world.

Phil

[TanyaT]

I like to be able to import my versions of the previous game, and have felt the difference each time I've done the whole run through.
Anders and Justice? who would have let Anders die and mean it? well I did the first time because I thought Bioware had forced us to have an Alistair light, but then he grew on me, well he loves cats, stands up to Ohgren, and can escape from anywhere.
I just loved the complexity of what they did with him in DA2

rak72 wrote...

It seems that perhaps we are getting less choices in the game so that the "other media"can do it's thing. The game is what is important & should not suffer for the sake of the other media.

that's how I feel.

By all means write background to the games, but please make tv as a side-shoot or history, not the present.
The game is what we are here for, what we see and hear in the game is the be all and end all.

[Gaidax]

soccerchick wrote...

Fredvdp wrote...

"Wait, didn't you die?" -Hawke
"I got better." -Leliana

Hawke- "Anders! But I stabbed you in back! Literally!"
Anders- "Tis' but a flesh wound."

It was merely a setback.

[G00N3R7883]

Asdara wrote...

Bottom line: I can accept a lack of choice from time to time for the sake of the over all story - what is harder to take is when I have been made to feel like the choice was mine, but then later discover that wasn't actually the case.

I agree with this.


[off topic comment removed]

Modifié par Stanley Woo, 10 novembre 2011 - 05:49 .

[jds1bio]

philippe willaume wrote...

That being said each player play through is his cannon, so other media will use different cannon as the story comes from a particular playthrough (hypothetical or not), that does not makes it an absolute canon, just a different world.

I would like for this very much to be true - that each player's playthrough is his/her canon - yet still fit with the rest of whatever is going on in that world.  But sometimes that doesn't work for people, and as a result they either:

- feel disappointment in having their experiences overriden
- hit "pause" and refuse to complete the game's story from that point, so that the canon-breaking moment never actually occurs in their playthrough (the only "winning" move is not to play)
- begrudgingly accept having certain factors, like the world's passage of time, null out the effects of their canon experiences

[macrocarl]

Stanley Woo wrote...

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

Actually........ I hate to day this but, Mr. Woo, I disagree. Here's why! We are told that each DA game will have a new protagonist in Thedas. Each character fleshes out events as we move through the Dragon Age. So at least in game you guys should make sure the plot flags are working from one game to the next so that each of us has our own DA. You guys do it with the ME-verse, you can do it DA-style too. Or is there something I'm missing?

[Sylvius the Mad]

Pygmali0n wrote...

In the pure air of the mad monk I can see your point, but too much oxygen isn't healthy Sylvius, don't you allow any a posteriori knowledge of the game world to creep in and give you a smidgeon of satisfaction?

That's what the post-game epilogue is for.  Beyond that, it's unreasonable to expect the next game in a series to accomodate all possible choices made in previous series, partly because doing so would be prohibitively expensive, but also because the developers cannot know what further developments would be consistent with the PC's motives in making those choices in the first place.

I think a CRPG can absolutely allow player freedom in crafting the motives of the PC, but designing subsequent games such that they cannot violate those player choices would require effectively no overlap between the characters and events of any two games.

While you may sublimate your id-ego-super ego into that of each individual character, surely the actual enjoyment in doing that anchors your real identity in this dimension?

Yes, but my real identity views each playthrough of a game as a separate instance of a fictional reality.  Just as there's no reason to believe that Alistair is the same person with the same motives and personality from playthrough to playthrough in DAO, nor is there any reason to believe that the Leliana we meet in DA2 had exactly the same experiences we saw her have in DAO.

[esper]

macrocarl wrote...

Stanley Woo wrote...

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

Actually........ I hate to day this but, Mr. Woo, I disagree. Here's why! We are told that each DA game will have a new protagonist in Thedas. Each character fleshes out events as we move through the Dragon Age. So at least in game you guys should make sure the plot flags are working from one game to the next so that each of us has our own DA. You guys do it with the ME-verse, you can do it DA-style too. Or is there something I'm missing?

They are doing it with DA. Ferelden is different in da2 depending on the choices your warden made. As I understood it the books/cartoon's stories plays out differently in your game universe if say one of the characters isn't alive, but since it is a book it can't explain your version.
Think of the books as what if... version that might happened in your universe if the story fits. If they don't fits some alternative version of the story played out. 

Modifié par esper, 10 novembre 2011 - 10:03 .

[Sylvius the Mad]

Chris Priestly wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I approve entirely of this position.

Really?

Ok, who had November 9 in the "Sylvius will someday agree with what we do" pool?

Did you not read my review of DA2?  I praised many--well, some--aspects of the game.

[macrocarl]

Yeah for books or whatever, rock and roll. But I was taking what was being said was that DA2 choices may or may not carry through to other games. For instance, there was an XBox 360 flag fart that happened with Witch Hunt. I know they will fix it before it becomes relevant, but having a world's worth of lore should continue to carry over should be planned ahead for in the game. Which you're right esper, it did from DAO to DA2........ Well there was some Awakening stuff that didn't, but I mean moving forward.

[esper]

macrocarl wrote...

Yeah for books or whatever, rock and roll. But I was taking what was being said was that DA2 choices may or may not carry through to other games. For instance, there was an XBox 360 flag fart that happened with Witch Hunt. I know they will fix it before it becomes relevant, but having a world's worth of lore should continue to carry over should be planned ahead for in the game. Which you're right esper, it did from DAO to DA2........ Well there was some Awakening stuff that didn't, but I mean moving forward.

We can agree on hating the bugs. (Zev is my warden romance. Not funny bioware!) And I would love some sort of save generator to be giving out to ps3 (ps3 myself) ad x-box so that we can repair/make saves ourselves, but I just assumed you talked about the book/comic breaking your canon and not the bugs. Sorry, that I mistundestood.

[maxernst]

Allowing as much player freedom within each game as possible is more important to me than having those choices reflected in subsequent games. It is, in large part, why I don't want the Warden to return in DA3, and why I thought it was a good idea to set DA2 somewhere other than Ferelden, where my choices shouldn't be expected to have too much impact. One of the strengths of DA:O compared to the ME games is that your Warden had so many more possible fates than Shepard. If Shepard dies, you lose the game. Shepard can't retire and go planet hopping with his girlfriend, become a member of the Council, etc.

[macrocarl]

esper wrote...

macrocarl wrote...

Yeah for books or whatever, rock and roll. But I was taking what was being said was that DA2 choices may or may not carry through to other games. For instance, there was an XBox 360 flag fart that happened with Witch Hunt. I know they will fix it before it becomes relevant, but having a world's worth of lore should continue to carry over should be planned ahead for in the game. Which you're right esper, it did from DAO to DA2........ Well there was some Awakening stuff that didn't, but I mean moving forward.

We can agree on hating the bugs. (Zev is my warden romance. Not funny bioware!) And I would love some sort of save generator to be giving out to ps3 (ps3 myself) ad x-box so that we can repair/make saves ourselves, but I just assumed you talked about the book/comic breaking your canon and not the bugs. Sorry, that I mistundestood.

Naw it's cool. I'm tired and using the barest form of English my dried out brain can muster so it's my fault for not being clear!

[Realmzmaster]

I view each media as separate from the game I am playing. The world may be the same the experiences do not have to be the same. What happens in the books. comics, cartoons, or movies does not have to be reflected in the games nor vice versa.

If David wants to write about Varric going to the moon in the book that is his prerogative.David could have a different canon for the books. I view as artistic direction going in a different way not saddled by what it in the game or if he wants expanding upon the game. Nothing in the game must be canon outside the game.
Lore is the accumulation of facts, traditions and beliefs about a particular subject. The assumption is that all lore is truth or fact which is not the case. Some lore is simply belief which may have no basis in fact.

[Sylvius the Mad]

simfamSP wrote...

I think you should use more smileys Sylvius

I don't know what they're for.  I understand in general terms what the purpose of emoticons is, but the specific meanings of individual smileys are insufficiently well established.

[macrocarl]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

simfamSP wrote...

I think you should use more smileys Sylvius

I don't know what they're for.  I understand in general terms what the purpose of emoticons is, but the specific meanings of individual smileys are insufficiently well established.

Here's the wiki: http://en.wikipedia....n#Western_style

Normally I don't site Wikipedia, but I checked it. Just in case you want to dip in and go crazy qith your emoting! :devil:<_<<_<:lol::whistle: < feels sooooooooo good!

[Asdara]

Realmzmaster wrote...

I view each media as separate from the game I am playing. The world may be the same the experiences do not have to be the same. What happens in the books. comics, cartoons, or movies does not have to be reflected in the games nor vice versa.

If David wants to write about Varric going to the moon in the book that is his prerogative.David could have a different canon for the books. I view as artistic direction going in a different way not saddled by what it in the game or if he wants expanding upon the game. Nothing in the game must be canon outside the game.
Lore is the accumulation of facts, traditions and beliefs about a particular subject. The assumption is that all lore is truth or fact which is not the case. Some lore is simply belief which may have no basis in fact.

I can share this view with you - provided what happens in other media isn't then wedged into the game media portion as if it belongs there because it was cool when it happened somewhere else.  If separate things stay separate, then go wild and diversity is good and artistic directional tangents even better.  If they're all put into a blender at the end of the day and poured over the choices I was given to think were mine so that I would feel like I was playing a role playing game then... less okay with it.  

Because I am a game player.  I love the games above all other media related to this concept.  Specifically my games.

I haven't seen that happen yet, so I am hopeful it won't, but I don't follow all the other media either all that closely.

[SirOccam]

I heartily agree with the OP. Freedom is good and all, but not if it's not going to be recognized. I accept that it can become tremendously complex (not to mention expensive) to accurately reflect everything, but the answer to that is simple...don't allow players so much freedom, at least not in certain areas.

Before you put in a choice to kill a character, first ask if there's any chance that character's return will be needed. If so...don't let us kill him or her. Maybe we can try, but then just have him/her escape or something. This is especially true with LIs. I was horrified when Morrigan claimed I turned her down at Redcliffe. I know the bug was eventually fixed, but events regarding our protagonists' personal lives should be handled with special care.

A big part of these games is continuity and the feeling that we're making an actual difference. I don't think anyone expects it to be 100% faithful, but I think just focusing on a few areas can reduce much of the concern. If you want to put in a momentous, earth-shattering decision, then there should be a backup plan for each way that decision can be made. Otherwise...don't give us the decision, or else reduce the number of choices to something manageable.

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Accommodating player choices and the resultant consequences across games would not only be prohibitively expensive to design, but it also adds nothing to the roleplaying experience.

Being able to adjust the world state adds to the experience in the manner similar to being able to adjust the PC's state, imo.

Of course, it should probably be noted that the latter is also on decline in the recent titles.

[Sylvius the Mad]

tmp7704 wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Accommodating player choices and the resultant consequences across games would not only be prohibitively expensive to design, but it also adds nothing to the roleplaying experience.

Being able to adjust the world state adds to the experience in the manner similar to being able to adjust the PC's state, imo.

Of course, it should probably be noted that the latter is also on decline in the recent titles.

But trying to fix one tends to prevent the fixing of the other.

I only think one of them is important.

[KingJason13]

Damn, Bioware! Just start making "Dragon Age 3: Uncharted Warfare" already! Then there'll be NO loose ends to tie up...

[Xewaka]

Baldur's Gate 2 has been referred as the pinnacle of Bioware RPG by a sizable amount of this community. Baldur's Gate 2 ignored completely the choices you made in Baldur's Gate: the only thing effectively imported was your character's sheet.
Fallout 2 and Fallout New Vegas build up on a very specific set of conditions stablishes in Fallout, never considering alternating routes.
Intergame continuity didn't bother us then, why should it bother us now?

Modifié par Xewaka, 13 novembre 2011 - 01:24 .