147 réponses à ce sujet

[Phaedros]

ME1 to ME2 no problem .. we're all waiting on ME3 to see how that works out ...

DA:O to DA2 pretty much non existant

Electronic Accountants will have their day, it seems ...

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

I meant repair.

I'm saying that allowing freedom within one game creates too many variables to transfer to a new game, while transfering variables to a new game requires that you not allow much freedom in the first.

You can only solve one of those problems at a time, and I think allowing freedom within one game is more important than transfering variables across titles.

I see. However, i'd say that choosing to ignore the impact of player's choices on the overall world state, while possibly allowing for more freedom within each individual game, creates entirely new/separate problem that's seeing your choices ultimately ignored. Something that can detract from the experience, rather than add to it.

A better solution imo is a 'thid way' so to speak -- that is, to provide the player with wide array of choices that largely don't have to be imported into latter installments, because there's simply not enough overleap between the content of these games -- but at the same time the major, world-shaping decisions should be tracked, if just because not doing so puts into question whether your meticulously roleplayed characters in the earlier games (and by extension, the character you intend to rp in the most recent game) even exist(ed) in the game world at all.

Modifié par tmp7704, 18 novembre 2011 - 01:12 .

[addiction21]

Phaedros wrote...

ME1 to ME2 no problem .. we're all waiting on ME3 to see how that works out ...

DA:O to DA2 pretty much non existant

Electronic Accountants will have their day, it seems ...

ME2 was no problem but DA2 was non existant? Thats some sort of joke right?

DA2 had the same interactions with charcters from the previous game like ME2. Could mention specific events from the previous game just like ME2 but also included side quests from them.

Phaedros wrote...

just, about, managed one play through & uninstalled

http://social.biowar...index/8677784/7
Oh wait you wouldnt know these things would you.

[Eudaemonium]

DA2 had about as many continuities as ME2, probably less if you count the e-mails, etc, but going on actual in-game stuff, I'd say they were fairly equal. It would be odd for Hawke to get letters from people the Warden helped, after all. The situation is different.

I actually, for once, partially agree with Silvius: I'd much prefer a robust system of choices within the game to the continuity of world-states between games. If only because the latter is pretty costly and constrains where the developers want to go with the product. Though, I'd be happy with some small character continuities (Race/Gender of PC, for example), because these things matter to me.

The alternative is to have all the choices matter very little, because the devs can't design multiple games around them. The DA team get around this slightly by having each game with a new protagonist in a new place, but that solution seems kinda lacklustre, since it precludes the revisiting of areas that could be wildly different based on player choices. This also leads to situations like in DA2, where all variables must meet at a certain point to require a semblance of a steady world-state.

[Marvin_Arnold]

Isn't that the way it's bound to go anyway; every DA game being a separate story? It seems to me it's the only viable solution. Dragon Age is 100 years, not a single personal story.

Continuity will be hard to keep, especially with characters. For this reason, I get the feeling we won't see, for example, Anders (or any character who we can decide to kill, like *sorry, spoilers en masse*) any more in future games, because of the diffferent choices in DA:O/DA2... except in letters or mentioned in a few lines of dialogue.

[Estelindis]

I agree with Stanley and with Sylvius to a certain extent.

At the same time, I think Asdara is right on the mark with this observation:

Asdara wrote...

I would think it something that could be entirely avoided if you didn't give us choices that you might have to negate later to make things go where you are ultimately taking them.

It seems to me that Bioware should have a certain story arc planned for Thedas. (I assume they do, but I don't know for sure.) I would imagine it to be possible to work backwards from future story points to give us choices that won't need to be negated later. Really, I don't mind a bit of negation - there are surely some forces at work that we and our characters don't understand, so it's not such an immersion-killer if some things seem not to make sense - but the more it happens the less credible it becomes.

[Pedrak]

I think tmp7704's last post was very much on target. Not all the choices have to be imported, with would be ludicrously expensive and hard to manage. I'd be in favour of having only 5-6 main variables transferred from a game to the next one of the series (especially since, with a different protagonist- unlike in ME - things like your LI are not that relevant), but they should be respected.

Incidentally, talking about importing saves, please give us a free, fool-proof tool to edit plot flags from previous games in DA3, so when the inevitable import bug pops up, all will be well and forgiven.

Modifié par Pedrak, 18 novembre 2011 - 02:26 .

[macrocarl]

Pedrak wrote...

I think tmp7704's last post was very much on target. Not all the choices have to be imported, with would be ludicrously expensive and hard to manage. I'd be in favour of having only 5-6 main variables transferred from a game to the next one of the series (especially since, with a different protagonist- unlike in ME - things like your LI are not that relevant), but they should be respected.

Incidentally, talking about importing saves, please give us a free, fool-proof tool to edit plot flags from previous games in DA3, so when the inevitable import bug pops up, all will be well and forgiven.

Yes! I agree with the above whole heartedly.

[Alexander1136]

KingJason13 wrote...

Damn, Bioware! Just start making "Dragon Age 3: Uncharted Warfare" already! Then there'll be NO loose ends to tie up...

  let me finish your elipse   ....TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL

[Sylvius the Mad]

tmp7704 wrote...

I see. However, i'd say that choosing to ignore the impact of player's choices on the overall world state, while possibly allowing for more freedom within each individual game, creates entirely new/separate problem that's seeing your choices ultimately ignored. Something that can detract from the experience, rather than add to it.

A better solution imo is a 'thid way' so to speak -- that is, to provide the player with wide array of choices that largely don't have to be imported into latter installments, because there's simply not enough overleap between the content of these games -- but at the same time the major, world-shaping decisions should be tracked, if just because not doing so puts into question whether your meticulously roleplayed characters in the earlier games (and by extension, the character you intend to rp in the most recent game) even exist(ed) in the game world at all.

I don't see much value in maintaining the fiction that the second game even happens in the same world.  If that were the case, then I would find changes to the game's mechanics far more jarring that the failure to mention that some character killed a dragon.

Put another way, if DA2 is set in the same world as DAO, then there needs to be an lore-based explanation for any and all changes to the game's mechanics.

Modifié par Sylvius the Mad, 18 novembre 2011 - 11:11 .

[NedPepper]

Re: Anders:

You have a choice to STAB him. There's no burial. There's no mention that he died. He fell and closed his eyes and you went off to fight Orsino or Meredith. If ANYONE could come back, it's Anders. He has a spirit in him. Hell, Wynne, kept dying over and over, but the spirit brought her back. I'm not sure why characters returning in a fantasy game is such a big deal.

I'll be honest: I want Anders back. He started what will probably be DA 3. Having him show up would be interesting depending on what actually happens with the templar/mage issue.

As far as game choice, I strangely enough agree with Sylviius. To import every minor choice from game to game is expensive. The developers of Mass Effect have already gone on record as saying that writing for ME; 3 was extremely challenging considering all of the little choices made in both games. And it's easier for Mass Effect, because you're just dealing with Shepard.

DA needs a canon developed by designers. An RPG should always have choices, but the choices should only really be focused on the role playing aspect of the game. I like the idea that some choices can carry over, but they should always be minor little touches (as we saw in DA 2) and not game or lore breaking.

And I also think Bioware gave the options to kill so many companions in Origins because they had no idea they even had a franchise. They were a little more careful in DA 2. Varric and Isabella and Aveline cannot die. Or even Sebastian. (Also notice how you can't romance three out of four of these characters, and Izzy isn't exactly known for monogamy.) Only Merrill, Anders and Fenris are killable, and I think even that is a mistake. Merrill has proven very popular and I imagine people will want to see her pop up again in the future of the series. (Honestly, there's still a lot of places they can go with her.)

[MKDAWUSS]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Put another way, if DA2 is set in the same world as DAO, then there needs to be an lore-based explanation for any and all changes to the game's mechanics.

I thought gameplay mechanics were separate from story.

[tmp7704]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

If that were the case, then I would find changes to the game's mechanics far more jarring that the failure to mention that some character killed a dragon.

I do find the changes in mechanics in the sequel jarring for this very reason, personally.

[ohnotherancor]

nedpepper wrote...

Re: Anders:

You have a choice to STAB him. There's no burial. There's no mention that he died. He fell and closed his eyes and you went off to fight Orsino or Meredith. If ANYONE could come back, it's Anders. He has a spirit in him. Hell, Wynne, kept dying over and over, but the spirit brought her back. I'm not sure why characters returning in a fantasy game is such a big deal.

I'll be honest: I want Anders back. He started what will probably be DA 3. Having him show up would be interesting depending on what actually happens with the templar/mage issue.

As far as game choice, I strangely enough agree with Sylviius. To import every minor choice from game to game is expensive. The developers of Mass Effect have already gone on record as saying that writing for ME; 3 was extremely challenging considering all of the little choices made in both games. And it's easier for Mass Effect, because you're just dealing with Shepard.

DA needs a canon developed by designers. An RPG should always have choices, but the choices should only really be focused on the role playing aspect of the game. I like the idea that some choices can carry over, but they should always be minor little touches (as we saw in DA 2) and not game or lore breaking.

And I also think Bioware gave the options to kill so many companions in Origins because they had no idea they even had a franchise. They were a little more careful in DA 2. Varric and Isabella and Aveline cannot die. Or even Sebastian. (Also notice how you can't romance three out of four of these characters, and Izzy isn't exactly known for monogamy.) Only Merrill, Anders and Fenris are killable, and I think even that is a mistake. Merrill has proven very popular and I imagine people will want to see her pop up again in the future of the series. (Honestly, there's still a lot of places they can go with her.)

Regarding the bold, I'd prefer it if BioWare stuck to the vision they had for a certain character and not overextend his or her story based solely on popularity. If Merrill's story is done, it's done. Don't bring her back just for fanservice. Same with Fenris and Anders. I think popularity should be incidental for continuing a story arc and not the basis.

As for the OP, I like having a variety of choices and paths in a game. I thought the worst thing about DA 2 was the railroading. As for choices carrying over between games, perhaps only 3 or 4 decisions should really matter and be carried over whereas all else is virtually ignored. By "ignored", I mean "not referred to within the game". I disagree with overwriting previous decisions as well.

I do agree with giving plot armor to NPCs who will be important in the future. However, if there is an option included to kill such an NPC to give the illusion of choice, the PC should at least attempt to do so. The NPC can throw down a smokebomb and disappear, run away, whatever. I'd just really like to never have a repeat of the end of a certain DA 2 DLC where the NPC just says "No" and the PC responds "Well, I tried!"

[Teddie Sage]

Spoilerish post ahead:

You can actually betray a good bunch of your team mates...

Isabela to the Arishok, Fenris to his master, Merrill if you side with the Templars, Anders if you decide to get rid of him, Sebastian if you decide to keep Anders with you after sparing him, Bethany/Carver... if Orsino/Meredith want them dead (OR if they died another way, like the Deeps or the Ogre) In the end, all that remains is you, at least Varric and Aveline and one mage. In this case, probably Bethany if you're not Carver OR Anders if you decide to betray Sebastian. I think it's actually possible to end a playthrough with onlly Hawke, Varric, Anders OR Sebastian and Aveline remaining as team members.

Modifié par Teddie Sage, 20 novembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[ohnotherancor]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I thought gameplay mechanics were separate from story.

This seems to be increasingly true with BioWare games and some people are very opposed to this direction.

I personally don't mind having too much segregation between the two, but I thought it was ridiculous in ME 2. I almost never used Jack in my party because of it.

Modifié par x0hn0th3r4nc0rx, 20 novembre 2011 - 05:24 .

[nightscrawl]

jds1bio wrote...

So as a gamer watching two years of investment and decision-making in Dragon Age being expanded into things that don't quite resemble my playthroughs, and watching my decisions being turned into uncharacteristic or unrequited what-ifs, I simply submit that future Dragon Age games should offer no canon-based decisions to the player.  Dispense with them, and keep the characters, story, and dialogue in line with your particular vision and intent.

I gotta say, none of this really matters much to me. Within the confines of an individual game, I like that I can make various choices. Regarding DA2 specifically, I also like how I can import different scenarios from DAO/DAA and that will impact the quest options and dialogue that I see in DA2. So really, I don't need much more than that.

I will consume the various other media and look at it as just more content within the universe I enjoy and I don't really feel that it has an impact or breaks the canon that I have established in my own plays. Reading is passive entertainment. As far as I am concerned, that version of Thedas really has nothing to do with me since I can't interact with it.

[FaWa]

......
What is the point of being able to make decisions if there is a "cannon" story line? Its just silly.
I view the world as something I've created; the lore is based on the decisions I've made. Seriously, this is a horrible idea. Lets just get rid of the things that make DA unique.

[Alex Kershaw]

Or, they could just plan ahead like in Mass Effect. Jus' sayin'.

[NedPepper]

FaWa wrote...

......
What is the point of being able to make decisions if there is a "cannon" story line? Its just silly.
I view the world as something I've created; the lore is based on the decisions I've made. Seriously, this is a horrible idea. Lets just get rid of the things that make DA unique.

Hawke and the Warden may be "your" character....besides that, I'm pretty sure the rest of the creation of Thedas is attributed to Mike, David, and the Bioware team.  The look is decided by the designers and the writing comes from Gaider and his team.  The reality is that the only time the world is truly yours is in fan fiction, and even that is based off something someone else created.  I'm not really following the logic here.

Having a canon creates ongoing storylines from one game to the next.  Without it, Dragon Age really wouldn't be much of a series.  Could they tell stories that are completely unrelated to each other in each game that just happen to take place in the same world...yes.   But you still have to have some kind of established continuity.

And without a sense of continuity, why would you even want choices?  They would have no impact, however small they may be.  What make choices matter in each game is that they have an impact on the continuity, particularly choices that affect your created character, i.e. Hawke and the Warden.

The canon is there to keep the overall "big picture" story moving.  The choices are there for more personal roleplaying of "your" Hawke or Warden.

[Celtic Latino]

Xewaka wrote...

Baldur's Gate 2 has been referred as the pinnacle of Bioware RPG by a sizable amount of this community. Baldur's Gate 2 ignored completely the choices you made in Baldur's Gate: the only thing effectively imported was your character's sheet.
Fallout 2 and Fallout New Vegas build up on a very specific set of conditions stablishes in Fallout, never considering alternating routes.
Intergame continuity didn't bother us then, why should it bother us now?

This (the bolded print). Funny how that's often overlooked. 

Also KOTOR 2 ignored the choices you made in Star Wars KOTOR. Being male/female and Light/Dark side didn't affect KOTOR 2 at all. 

If you ask me maybe the Elder Scrolls route should be taken and set each game centuries apart or in different lands. That way no characters can magically appear or disappear and the events played a role within said timeline but didn't affect the outer scope of things. Even TES has an established canon (Morrowind canon protagonist being a male Imperial, Skyrim's canon protagonist likely a Male Nord) yet the canon doesn't affect what characters others play or the overall lore of the game. 

OR...we all just keep an individual head-canon for ourselves and be grateful we at least can do that. :-/  Especially in an age where most rpgs are reduced to pay to play MMOs and interactive movies with predetermined characters, plots, and stories (with no choice whatsoever) whose only rpg elements are its battle systems (glances at the jrpg market <_<).  

[Eudaemonium]

Celtic Latino wrote...

Also KOTOR 2 ignored the choices you made in Star Wars KOTOR. Being male/female and Light/Dark side didn't affect KOTOR 2 at all.

This actually isn't completely true, though not in the 'import' way. Deciding that Revan was female and darkside when talking to Atton removes Carth from the game, since it decides you romanced and then killed him, for example (which I did, bwahahaha).

[Spell Singer]

maxernst wrote...

Spell Singer wrote...
Basically I have 3 very different Thedas's where 3 very different wardens and an associated Hawke have existed and I would like to see how they play out. A good question is how big is the interaction matrix getting and is it such that it seriously impacts on the next game in terms of quests and most importantly lines of dialogue. But without knowing anything about the next game plot and character wise it is impossible to say how complicated the situation is getting for Bioware's writers.
 

Umm...if you have three very different Thedas and they have to respect your choices, either:

a)  The story will be such that your choices will be trivial (as they were in DA2, for the most part) or
  They have to release three very different games, just for you.

Not for me specificially no. 

The question is again, "How complex is the interaction matrix getting?"  I don't consider the choices in DA2 to be trivial, as people lived and died depending on what you did.  But I don't want to see Anders back in any of my play thoughs of DA3...all three of my Hawke's dealt with that problem with a knife, for different reasons admittedly.

Things like who is on the throne of Orzamar and Fereldan, which companions are alive, etc these pretty much have to be respected.  However in DA3 they (the Bioware writers) can choose which interactions they have...basically do you talk to an NPC that references something from the previous games so the writers/designers have full choice in minimizing or optimizing the interaction matrix and in many cases these are binary choices.  Others are more complex since clearly who the hero of fereldan is has a huge spread (3 classes, 3 races, 2 sexes, 6 backgrounds).  Add in if you played some DLC expansion or not.

It isn't a trivial thing to program all this, and it costs money to cover the possibilites but it is something that at the end of the day hits me, at least, with a postive feeling about the game when it is done right.

Modifié par Spell Singer, 21 novembre 2011 - 02:18 .

[Celtic Latino]

Eudaemonium wrote...

Celtic Latino wrote...

Also KOTOR 2 ignored the choices you made in Star Wars KOTOR. Being male/female and Light/Dark side didn't affect KOTOR 2 at all.

This actually isn't completely true, though not in the 'import' way. Deciding that Revan was female and darkside when talking to Atton removes Carth from the game, since it decides you romanced and then killed him, for example (which I did, bwahahaha).

This is true. 

This probably should be the way Bioware handles imports, they should stick with diversifying the setting or at least using gaps within timelines (50, 100, 200 years before/after) and stick with a few basic questions just to get an overall glimpse. I actually think Dragon Age 2 did a good job with that, making cameos for those who amde the imports yet staying away from Ferelden. I think Dragon Age 3 should take that further and keep the series out of Ferelden. Those who import should have a few deciding factors that can be answered with a questionaiire at the beginning of the game ala KOTOR 2. 

The only thing that should affect DA3 as far as Origins/DA2 goes is: 
-Who rules Ferelden 
-Alistair's fate (since he's pretty important) 
-How the Blight was resolved (OGB, Loghain/Alistair/Warden sacrifice) 
-Who Hawke sided with (Mages or Templars)

The problem is we right away assume we are affecting Thedas as a whole with each game when really we are just playing the current time. All of our playthroughs and canons are 'what-if' scenarios if you really think about it. Just because Loghain sacrificed himself to save the Blight in my playthrough doesn't mean that's another's 'canon'. It would be awesome if all our decisions affected the canon as a whole but that would take too much time and expenses (as one user put it). My thing now is just enjoy the games as they come. 

Even choices made in Mass Effect 1 really didn't affect Mass Effect 2 as a whole. You merely got a change of dialogue, cameos, e-mails and who shows up. You could've been an absolute jerk to Liara in ME1 yet she's still your stalker BFF in ME2. You could've told Garrus to be patient in ME1 yet he was still a renegade in ME2. And that's a game based on your decisions and a single character (just as everyone wanted the Warden and his/her decisions in DA2...it would've simply been another Mass Effect 2 thing). 
*Not going to judge Mass Effect 3, but even during a Mass Effect 2 interview the writers/developers spoke of the 'illusion of choice', with each sequel they're always going to try to bring in new fans to the franchise* 

[esper]

I liked what they did in da2, I felt that the Ferelden my warden created exits in the games I imported and that was good enough for me. The small quest and lines were enough. I don't expect more than that.
Now the bugs on the other hand is irritating...