147 réponses à ce sujet

[jds1bio]

Celtic Latino wrote...

Even choices made in Mass Effect 1 really didn't affect Mass Effect 2 as a whole. You merely got a change of dialogue, cameos, e-mails and who shows up. You could've been an absolute jerk to Liara in ME1 yet she's still your stalker BFF in ME2. You could've told Garrus to be patient in ME1 yet he was still a renegade in ME2. And that's a game based on your decisions and a single character (just as everyone wanted the Warden and his/her decisions in DA2...it would've simply been another Mass Effect 2 thing). 
*Not going to judge Mass Effect 3, but even during a Mass Effect 2 interview the writers/developers spoke of the 'illusion of choice', with each sequel they're always going to try to bring in new fans to the franchise* 

I think it's ok if a charcter is going to do whatever he/she is going to do, no matter what the player-character's choices are.  It may be frustrating from a role-playing standpoint, that you can't influence someone (like Anders, and your example Garrus across ME games), but it's at least a plausible situation.  But when one game says I did something previously, when I did just the opposite, or did some other alternative, then it starts getting problematic.  And for me at least, even worse when lore is expanded outside of the games, and then folded back into the next game.

[Sylvius the Mad]

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I thought gameplay mechanics were separate from story.

But they cannot be, as the story includes the actions taken by the player character, and the player character's actions are at aleast partially driven by the mechanics.

[Riknas]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I thought gameplay mechanics were separate from story.

But they cannot be, as the story includes the actions taken by the player character, and the player character's actions are at aleast partially driven by the mechanics.

And they are partially taken into consideration, funny how that works.

There will always be something of a divide though, or we would have to throw-out cutscenes and no doubt other features.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Riknas wrote...

There will always be something of a divide though, or we would have to throw-out cutscenes and no doubt other features.

We should throw out cutscenes.  I've been calling for that for many years.

[Riknas]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Riknas wrote...

There will always be something of a divide though, or we would have to throw-out cutscenes and no doubt other features.

We should throw out cutscenes.  I've been calling for that for many years.

Alright then. Well, I say we shouldn't remove cutscenes. I've enjoyed them for many years.

[FaWa]

nedpepper wrote...

FaWa wrote...

......
What is the point of being able to make decisions if there is a "cannon" story line? Its just silly.
I view the world as something I've created; the lore is based on the decisions I've made. Seriously, this is a horrible idea. Lets just get rid of the things that make DA unique.

Hawke and the Warden may be "your" character....besides that, I'm pretty sure the rest of the creation of Thedas is attributed to Mike, David, and the Bioware team.  The look is decided by the designers and the writing comes from Gaider and his team.  The reality is that the only time the world is truly yours is in fan fiction, and even that is based off something someone else created.  I'm not really following the logic here.

Having a canon creates ongoing storylines from one game to the next.  Without it, Dragon Age really wouldn't be much of a series.  Could they tell stories that are completely unrelated to each other in each game that just happen to take place in the same world...yes.   But you still have to have some kind of established continuity.

And without a sense of continuity, why would you even want choices?  They would have no impact, however small they may be.  What make choices matter in each game is that they have an impact on the continuity, particularly choices that affect your created character, i.e. Hawke and the Warden.

The canon is there to keep the overall "big picture" story moving.  The choices are there for more personal roleplaying of "your" Hawke or Warden.

Why do we NEED a canon story? 
What if Hawke had a button that, if pushed, would cause Thedas to explode? That is a decision Hawke would make, right? What you are saying makes no sense.

And no, you don't NEED an established storyline. It just makes BioWares job easier. My Warden/Hawkes decisions should be recognized. Why do you NEED a canon? Why does the big picture have to move on only one way? WHY? This makes no sense to me. 

[Maria Caliban]

Have consequences for actions appear in the same game the choices where made. No more save game transfers for world state.

People loved Buldar's Gate. Well, here's a way BioWare can mimic that series.

[Zjarcal]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Riknas wrote...

There will always be something of a divide though, or we would have to throw-out cutscenes and no doubt other features.

We should throw out cutscenes.  I've been calling for that for many years.

I just... yeah.

Modifié par Zjarcal, 23 novembre 2011 - 03:30 .

[Maria Caliban]

If you still react that way to what Sylvanus writes, you just aren't paying attention.

[csfteeeer]

why would removing cinematics be bad?

[Xewaka]

After experience Jensen's IQ drop 30 points during cutscenes, I don't oppose their removal. At the very least, don't have any player controlled character in them, or it'd be next to impossible not to be character breaking with them.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

If you still react that way to what Sylvanus writes, you just aren't paying attention.

I find it funny that you continue to call me Sylvanus, given that there is someone else here named Sylvianus.  The name you've given me is closer to his name than mine.

I'm not objecting - just pointing out possible confusion.

[Maria Caliban]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
Put another way, if DA2 is set in the same world as DAO, then there needs to be an lore-based explanation for any and all changes to the game's mechanics.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

MKDAWUSS wrote...

I thought gameplay mechanics were separate from story.

But they cannot be, as the story includes the actions taken by the player character, and the player character's actions are at aleast partially driven by the mechanics.

I agree that mechanics should serve story and are a form of storytelling. That is one of my objections to the distant third-person view and being able to control companions, and one of the reasons I like the tactics menu. 

That is also why I don't think DA:O, DA 2, or DA 3 need the same mechanics: they're not the same story. 

They might have the same setting but the Warden is not part of Hawke's story. Hawke's story will (hopefully) only be part of the backdrop when it comes to the PC in DA 3. 

Sylvius the Mad wrote...
I find it funny that you continue to call me Sylvanus, given that there is someone else here named Sylvianus.  The name you've given me is closer to his name than mine.

I'm not objecting - just pointing out possible confusion.

Is he a frequent poster? If I rarely interact with him, I don't think it will be a problem.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 23 novembre 2011 - 10:42 .

[bEVEsthda]

Riknas wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Riknas wrote...

There will always be something of a divide though, or we would have to throw-out cutscenes and no doubt other features.

We should throw out cutscenes.  I've been calling for that for many years.

Alright then. Well, I say we shouldn't remove cutscenes. I've enjoyed them for many years.

Well, I say do throw out cutscenes. They're one of the king pins of everything that has gone wrong with the direction of Bioware's games.

[Riknas]

bEVEsthda wrote...

Riknas wrote...

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Riknas wrote...

There will always be something of a divide though, or we would have to throw-out cutscenes and no doubt other features.

We should throw out cutscenes.  I've been calling for that for many years.

Alright then. Well, I say we shouldn't remove cutscenes. I've enjoyed them for many years.

Well, I say do throw out cutscenes. They're one of the king pins of everything that has gone wrong with the direction of Bioware's games.

Well isn't that grand, I suppose we could make a poll about it, or we could pile on with a thread about why it should or shouldn't be around at all, but I think it's safe to say that cutscenes are here to stay, for a while at least.

[Sylvius the Mad]

Maria Caliban wrote...

That is also why I don't think DA:O, DA 2, or DA 3 need the same mechanics: they're not the same story. 

I agree entirely.  I just go one further and insist they cannot be the same setting, because the world's physical laws are different.

Is he a frequent poster?

Not so frequent that it's likely to be a problem.

[Tuleron]

Asch Lavigne wrote...

*spoilers*

I just disliked the whole "Anders was a Warden no matter what and you had Justice no matter what, but Justice was never in Kristoff, he just jumped right into Anders" thing.Just please don't auto ressurect Anders like you did with Leliana. I killed him at the end of DAII and I want him to stay dead.

I get Anders alive, so we got a problem!
The appearance of Liliana do not belong from a DLC ?

Modifié par Tuleron, 28 novembre 2011 - 02:03 .

[Tuleron]

FaWa wrote...

nedpepper wrote...

FaWa wrote...

......
What is the point of being able to make decisions if there is a "cannon" story line? Its just silly.
I view the world as something I've created; the lore is based on the decisions I've made. Seriously, this is a horrible idea. Lets just get rid of the things that make DA unique.

Hawke and the Warden may be "your" character....besides that, I'm pretty sure the rest of the creation of Thedas is attributed to Mike, David, and the Bioware team.  The look is decided by the designers and the writing comes from Gaider and his team.  The reality is that the only time the world is truly yours is in fan fiction, and even that is based off something someone else created.  I'm not really following the logic here.

Having a canon creates ongoing storylines from one game to the next.  Without it, Dragon Age really wouldn't be much of a series.  Could they tell stories that are completely unrelated to each other in each game that just happen to take place in the same world...yes.   But you still have to have some kind of established continuity.

And without a sense of continuity, why would you even want choices?  They would have no impact, however small they may be.  What make choices matter in each game is that they have an impact on the continuity, particularly choices that affect your created character, i.e. Hawke and the Warden.

The canon is there to keep the overall "big picture" story moving.  The choices are there for more personal roleplaying of "your" Hawke or Warden.

Why do we NEED a canon story? 
What if Hawke had a button that, if pushed, would cause Thedas to explode? That is a decision Hawke would make, right? What you are saying makes no sense.

And no, you don't NEED an established storyline. It just makes BioWares job easier. My Warden/Hawkes decisions should be recognized. Why do you NEED a canon? Why does the big picture have to move on only one way? WHY? This makes no sense to me. 

...what?
Seriously, you don't need a storyline? And what are you going to play? Picking you pc and start running in circles? Doing whatever you wnt? Nice, so you are no thinking very well i see.
You need a storyline to have something to play, i know it's a rpg game where you may able to do whatever you wnt, but please, a little of sense, it's imposible not having a story, if they didn't put a storyline bioware will be obligate to make a huge game of 200gb to got a full game where you will got the chance to do what ever you want, with all the options avaibles, from the point to kill every citizen from a city to have a big orgie with the maker itself.
...CMON.

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Riknas wrote...

There will always be something of a divide though, or we would have to throw-out cutscenes and no doubt other features.

We should throw out cutscenes.  I've been calling for that for many years.

Ah? Okey, lets throw down the cutscenes with all the lore included, put a big giant map with 5616165103506 darkspawns, and let the killing begin...HELL YEAH!
Now i understand why Bioware do DA2 a more casual player game instead of a hardcore player game, ppl who don't wnt cutscenes on a rpg game...ftw.

Modifié par Tuleron, 28 novembre 2011 - 02:41 .

[TreneteSiyaraya]

Leliana appeared even no DLC installed.

Sorry for its spoiler but necessary.

Modifié par TreneteSiyaraya, 28 novembre 2011 - 12:53 .

[TreneteSiyaraya]

Stanley Woo wrote...

However your game and your PC ends up, we have an entire world's worth of lore to carry through a timeline, which is why what ends up being canonical for the overarching Dragon Age timeline may not always agree with what you did in your particular playthroughs. Hopefully, we can take a lot of what you players do in your games and have those choices carry through in subsequent, related games in our franchise, such as DAO choices making a difference in some things in DA2.

 

[FieryDove]

Tuleron wrote...

Ah? Okey, lets throw down the cutscenes with all the lore included, put a big giant map with 5616165103506 darkspawns, and let the killing begin...HELL YEAH!
Now i understand why Bioware do DA2 a more casual player game instead of a hardcore player game, ppl who don't wnt cutscenes on a rpg game...ftw.

I think cutscenes are fine. But too many and they are no longer *special*. Not to mention there is a tradeoff. The more *movie* you get, the less *game* you get. Something to ponder...

[Heimdall]

Sylvius the Mad wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

That is also why I don't think DA:O, DA 2, or DA 3 need the same mechanics: they're not the same story. 

I agree entirely.  I just go one further and insist they cannot be the same setting, because the world's physical laws are different.

Right...

Fable 2 dispensed with cutscenes (Mostly aside from the intro)...and it really wasn't an improvement.

Modifié par Lord Aesir, 28 novembre 2011 - 10:58 .

[Chris Priestly]

Surely the easiest way to "dispense with canon-busting choices" would be for us to actually set the canon in game by removing the choice from the player. Whether done in cutscene, dialog, pre-render, etc, if we set the choices (the king dies, the elf is the bad guy, you play a male, you romance the princess, etc) that is easiest on the Dev team (less time to create all the myriad of possibilities and allows a more focused story) and prevents threads like this in the future.



Edit: I accidentally typed "proncess" above. That is a compltely different and far more adult entertainment type of royalty than I intended.

[FieryDove]

Chris Priestly wrote...

would be for us to actually set the canon in game by removing the choice from the player. Whether done in cutscene, dialog, pre-render, etc, if we set the choices (the king dies, the elf is the bad guy, you play a male, you romance the princess, etc) that is easiest on the Dev team (less time to create all the myriad of possibilities and allows a more focused story) and prevents threads like this in the future.

Umm...

Dear Chris,

Isn't that what DA2 did in a nutshell already? (For the most part, male/female aside as class did not matter either storywise -mage in templar town *cough*) And it only had one *origin*. I am confused...as usual.

[Chris Priestly]

Really? The only choice you got to make in DAII was male/female? Really?