75 réponses à ce sujet

[WhiteKnyght]

General User wrote...

If your going to accuse Andrasteism itself of being hypocritical than you need to seriously analyze it's doctrines, not point out hypocritical Andrastians.

For example:
Saying on the one hand the Qun claims to value logic and order, yet on the other hand Sten violently and senselessly murdered innocent farmers, would not make the Qun itself hypocritical, it would just make Sten a failure in living up to the Qun.

But saying the Qun is hypocritical because, on the one hand, it claims to value logic and order, yet on the other hand it mandates the madness and chaos of murder and war over the loss of eminently replaceable and/or simple material objects would be a valid criticism of the Qun.

See the difference?

I never said the qun wasn't hypocritical either.

The Qunari don't seem to care about hypocrisy. Even when Hawke called the Arishok contradictory he didn't acknowledge it.

There's nothing wrong with pointing out flaws in society or religion. If nobody had the courage to speak out and try to change things, our own world would still be trapped in the more barbaric age of witch hunts, crusades, and supersticion.

It's like Flemeth said. Shut one's eyes tight or open one's arms wide, either way, one's a fool. My canon characters keep their arms closed and their eyes wide open.

Modifié par The Grey Nayr, 10 novembre 2011 - 01:42 .

[General User]

I'm not sure if you're getting it.

There are right ways to criticize and wrong ways.

Modifié par General User, 10 novembre 2011 - 01:58 .

[Urzon]

It seems to be the new way of radical politics. You are always a good guy, fighting the good fight. Anyone who disagrees with you even slightly is evil, and they are out to destory your way of life.

P.S. Meredith would make a good anchor for FOX News. Just replace "mages" with "terrorists" or "democrats/liberals" and you get their primetime block.

Modifié par Urzon, 10 novembre 2011 - 05:58 .

[Gokuthegrate]

Meredith was only looking for any excuse to kill the mages.
Even though I wasn't expecting it I'm happy Anders blew up the chantry.
F#$% the Maker.

My mages tend to not believe in the Chantry's teachings if that wasn't obvious.

[megski]

The Grey Nayr wrote...
"not any of the blood mages I've seen throughout Origins and DAII".

What about the mage that cut up women and sewed them together, including Hawke's mom?  That guy doesn't deserve to be curbstomped by a Bronto?  Ok.  

[Vit246]

I find it to be pathetic and poor writing for Meredith to claim that she cannot stay her hand because "the people" will demand blood.

She is a Knight-Commander with an army at her backing. And the people have not been able to make any successful demands of her ever since she usurped the position of Viscount.

And since when does she care about the people? They wanted to elect a new Viscount, she prevents them from doing that. She allows her templars to murder any people who so much as provide food to a hungry mage. Instead of spreading out the templars to aid any people after the chantry explosion, she sends them all away to annihilate the Kirkwall Circle mages who had nothing to do with whatever happened..

[DreamerM]

I tend to play "agnostic" type characters who are more interested in getting on with their own lives then worrying about the next one.

But from a sheer, purely logical standpoint, it makes no sense for Meredith to demand the Circle Mages die for the crimes of an apostate. If Anders had been a part of the Circle, blowing up the Chantry would have been maybe impossible. Even the most pro-Templar fanatic would have problems executing people for something they didn't do. The Circle is supposed to be the one safe place to keep a mage in Thedas.

A templar who cannot contain a mage safely....or protect them from a public that fears them...isn't a very good templar.

Lets face it, Meredith kind of sucked at her job.

[megski]

I think I saw another thread yesterday or today that pointed out that it made no sense that Meredith left killing Anders up to Hawke. I think this thread, well, part of it, are related to the other that I saw. It said that it was 'out of character for her' which I kind of agree with. I mean, if I'm a templar foaming at the mouth that has been kicking mage ass for half my life, and there is a mage in front of me that deserves a death sentence I think I'm probably going to shank him, without a second thought.

[Fylimar]

"Malvernis, Corypheus and that veil tear at the heart of Kirkwall, all
factor into all of Kirkwall being a bad place to live, and its
population going crazy. Sort of like Gotham City, which is placed on the
grave of a warlock, an ancient indian burial ground, and all sorts of
other nastiness."

I wanted to write the same thing, but with Lovecrafts Arkham as an example, because it would fit - crazy Tevinter mages doing blood sacrifices and crazy cultists doing the same

About the topic: I'm not the religious type - not in real life and  certainly not in a game. But I don't think, you can blame a whole religion for people doing wrong things in the name of that faith. Meredith may be using the Andrastian faith as an excuse for the things she did, but miostly, she did it, to serve her own purpose.
I was of the impression, that she didn't so much care who blew the chantry up or if the people of Kirkwall demand revenge - she just wanted to get it back at Orsino, who opposed her openly not long ago.It looked to me, as if that was a simple act of revenge - she weren't even allowed to invoke the RoA without a Revered Mother allowing it. And I doubt that many Revered Mothers would have allowed that (even Elthina would not)

About the examples of 'bad Andrastians':
Why do people like Greagoir, Cullen or Wynne count as hypocritical. Greagoir had no other option but locking the tower, so that the abominations stay inside, he would have threatened all teh other people, living around the lake otherwise. He was reluctant to invoke the RoA and was obviously very happy, when the Warden returned with Irving alive. Wynne may lecture a lot, but she has a good heart, Cullen is paranoid and frightened after his torture by Uldred - it's understandable, that he would view mages a little different. But even so, he helps Hawke in the fight against Meredith (and my Hawke always sides with the mages at nearly every possibility) and he wouldn't used Ser Alriks methods - he said so in a conversation later in the game (can't remmeber when).

[Joy Divison]

OP: Meredith does not equal Andrastism.

[Nerevar-as]

Cullen helps Hawke after annuling the circle, slaughtering who knows how many people for a crime he knew they didn´t commit, including children (I guess there are mage children in KW even if we don´t see them). After that I don´t care for excuses, if I get the chance to kill him he better pray he´s very important to the plot at that moment.

Modifié par Nerevar-as, 10 novembre 2011 - 02:47 .

[Urazz]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Lol this is so funny. Meredith feels she is doing the Maker's work by slaughtering innocents out of prejudice. And believes she will be given a heavenly reward for it.

How is her invoking the Right of Annulment just because people will want someone to pay any different than what the Archon Hessarian did to Andraste?

I think the Chant of Light is a load of biased historical accounts and the rest pure crap, but I remember that one of the greatest sins mentioned in it is slaughtering innocents. And Meredith makes it plain as day that she knows the Circle is guiltless, but is gonna kill them anyway.

Andrastian hypcrisy at it's zenith. The name Maleficar is better suited for Meredith, not any of the blood mages I've seen throughout Origins and DAII.

Nah, she never had to annull the Circle to satisfy the people's demand for blood/justice.  She had the man that did it right there and he even admitted to it.  He wasn't part of the circle (nor was he even part of the Grey Wardens anymore technically) and there was no evidence to suggest that the Circle colluded with him on it.  She easily could've made a public trial/hanging for Anders and satisfy the the public.  This was more about her own goals and the fact that she was full out crazy at that ponit in Act 3.

[LobselVith8]

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Alistair is not "pro-mage", he just wants a nationalized Circle instead of an international institution, there are still Templars, and a Chantry in Ferelden when he is king. He is also enough of a Templar to be prejudiced against apostates.

I respectfully disagree. Both King Alistair and Queen Anora will publicly agree with the Hero of Ferelden (from the Circle of Ferelden) that the mages have earned the right to govern themselves, when the Hero of Ferelden asks the new ruler to emancipate his people from the Chantry of Andraste and the Order of Templars. Seven years later, King Alistair is apparently still arguing in favor of the Magi boon (as evident from his argument with Knight-Commander Meredith over the issue). If the Magi boon wasn't requested, the argument is about the fact that King Alistair is protecting apostates from the templars.

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Cullen doesn't flat out agree with Alrik's proposal, he just says that there are argumens to be made in its favor. That is the same as saying "I can see why someone would want this". Doesn't mean you neccesarily agree, but that you can see the appeal.

Actually, Anders and Hawke can state that Cullen seems to favor the Tranquil Solution based on his dialogue after "Dissent," and Cullen never disputes her statements that he seems to support the Tranquil Solution.

[Lazy Jer]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet or not and I'm too dang lazy to check, but I think Meredeth was attempting to use a political justification with that statement rather then a religious one. She wasn't saying that it was her duty to the Maker, Andraste or that whole crew to enact the Right of Annulment, she was saying that the people would demand blood for the blowing up of the Chantry and the innocents trapped within. More blood then the death of one apostate mage (Anders) would be able to satifsy.

I still think it's a BS justification, mind you, but I don't think it's a religious BS justification.

[Jedi Master of Orion]

Uh I thought it was because her mage sister killed her entire family?

[Sir JK]

Lazy Jer wrote...

I still think it's a BS justification, mind you, but I don't think it's a religious BS justification.

Spot on. It's Meredith's paranoia and delusions starting to boil over. She is no more representative of the Chantry at that point than Anders is a representative of mages everywhere. It just has political and religious window-dressing.

Claiming that the people/maker demands it to be so is a lie. It's Meredith that wants it. She just managed to find a believable excuse (to -her- followers). The problem at that point is, just like with Anders moments before, the power she manages to use to try to make her wish come true.

[EmperorSahlertz]

LobselVith8 wrote...

EmperorSahlertz wrote...

Cullen doesn't flat out agree with Alrik's proposal, he just says that there are argumens to be made in its favor. That is the same as saying "I can see why someone would want this". Doesn't mean you neccesarily agree, but that you can see the appeal.

Actually, Anders and Hawke can state that Cullen seems to favor the Tranquil Solution based on his dialogue after "Dissent," and Cullen never disputes her statements that he seems to support the Tranquil Solution.

That he doesn't dispute does not mean he agrees. It could also mean that he has simply had enough of Anders' bullsh*t to even bother replying.

[DreamerM]

Urazz wrote...
 She had the man that did it right there and he even admitted to it.  He wasn't part of the circle (nor was he even part of the Grey Wardens anymore technically) and there was no evidence to suggest that the Circle colluded with him on it.  She easily could've made a public trial/hanging for Anders and satisfy the the public.

In my head's perfect version of DA2, the Chantry would go up at the BEGINNING of act 3 rather then the end of it, and depending on which side you pick then, you get access to different missions, either helping Meredith track down and erradicate apostates in the Mage Underground or helping the Mages themselves escape templars, kidnappers, and slavers to get on boats to the safety of Fereldan. You'd be given several chances to change sides when you discover Meredith talking to her sword or blood magic amoung the apostates and circle mages. And amoung the missions you get is attending Meredith's public execution of Anders, where you get to decide whether to let her kill him or swoop in like a Big Damn Hero and rescue him.

But if wishes were fishes, we'd all havea fry...

[macrocarl]

Jedi Master of Orion wrote...

Uh I thought it was because her mage sister killed her entire family?

This was why my Ferelden mage Hawke ended up siding with her. RP-wise Hawke saw his mom Frankenstein love dolled by a Kirkwall mage and wanted revenge.

[Gervaise]

OP: You have got your reasoning back to front.  As the other posters have shown, there is nothing wrong in the sentiments expressed in the Chant of Light.  They are not hypocritical but people are if they claim to follow the Maker's Chant and yet clearly do not adhere to it.

Now if you wish to say that the Chantry is hypocritical, I might agree with you, since there are so many instances of doctrine approved by the Chantry which seems to contradict the Chant of Light.  First and foremost is the Divine Right justification for not only the Templars control of mages but also the Orlesian nobles treatment of anyone else not of their status.

However, there are good people around Thedas I am sure who do try and live to the ideals of the Chant.  In the past there was the ancestor of Sebastian who brought about the downfall of a tyrant, not by raising an army or bombing a palace, but by fasting on the steps of the Chantry and inviting other people to join him until practically the entire city of Starkhaven, including the palace guards were there.   I would also point out that Sebastain, the only surviving member of the actual Chantry in Kirkwall after the bomb, did not ask for the blood of the Circle, just for that of the person responsible, Anders.   It is hardly his fault that no one listened to him.  That he reacts badly if Anders is spared by Hawke is understandable given that he points out that it could have been him lying under the pile of rubble.   That does not mean the faith he claims to follow should be condemned, merely at that moment in time he finds it hard to keep a sense of perspective.    

Hawke's family are Andrastrians and clearly Leandra likes to help people because Hawke bemoans this when the boy tells of her helping the man covered in blood.   Malcolm Hawke lived to an oath "My magic shall serve that which is best in me, not that which is most base."   Whether this is something he was made to swear on the Circle or it is his own personal oath is not clear, but is certainly in keeping with the Chant of Light.

The Chantry in Lothering was doing what it could to help the refugees fleeing the blight, when those people who should have been protecting them, the temporal rulers, had abandoned them and marched north with Loghain.   The Chantry in Redcliffe was providing the last line of defense for the people of the village.  May be it has something to do with being further from the seat of power than the big city chantries, that makes the village chantries seem more concerned with helping the people and less with maintaining their own status.  

Brother Burkel, the dwarf who converted to the faith, is one of the only people in Orzammar who would give refuge to an outcast dwarf woman and her child, whose own family had told her to abandon it in the deep roads because it was the wrong sex or she could not return home.

I would also mention Chantry scholars, like Brother Genitivi and Sister Petrine.  Genitivi seems to be going to some lengths to research the real state of affairs throughout Thedas whilst Petrine is working to ensure that the truth of history is not lost, even when her published findings actually run contrary to the Chantry's official line.

There were more examples in Origins of good Andrastrians because Origins was more balanced in its depiction of many things.  Very few Thedas institutions come out well from DA2.  However, it should be remembered that the main problem with any situation is that it relies on the behaviour of human beings (dwarves, elves and Kossith included) and these tend to be fallible when it comes to maintaining ideals of faith.

 

[Herr Uhl]

Gervaise wrote...

Now if you wish to say that the Chantry is hypocritical, I might agree with you, since there are so many instances of doctrine approved by the Chantry which seems to contradict the Chant of Light.  First and foremost is the Divine Right justification for not only the Templars control of mages but also the Orlesian nobles treatment of anyone else not of their status.
 

What does this have to do with the chantry?

[Gervaise]

Because there is nothing in the Chant of Light that talks about Divine Right but it does say that all are equally the Maker's children be they slave or noble and therefore should be treated in the way the Maker has set out in the Chant. Orlesian Divine Right allows a noble to beat a peasant to death or rape a merchant girl and there to be no come back againt them under the law. In fact if the girl's brother should defend his sister from the assault, he would be condemned to death for defying the noble's rights. The Chantry should have condemned this thinking from day one because dontradicts everything that the Chant of Light stands for. However, since the Chantry was first established by an Emperor of Orlais, I think it is fairly obvious why they have not done so.

[HiroVoid]

The Grey Nayr wrote...

Greagoir, who thinks no mage is worth saving and leaves them all, and his own men, at the mercy of the demons?

Cullen, who thinks you should kill everyone in the Harrowing chamber just to be on the safe side?

Greagoir actually used it when he should have used it.  His men and him did everything they could to fight off the demons, but eventually, he decided that there was no way for them to win, and it looked like he only had few men when we get to him.  It would take at least 3 days or so to get a reply to perform the rite of annulment and the reinforcements, so it's not evil or idiotic to think that the demons had gotten the upper hand, and turned all of the mages at that point.  You're also forgetting he revokes the rite of annulment if you ask him after you save Irving.

Cullen was just mericilessly tortured by blood mages.  He obviously wasn't in his right mind at the time.

As for Andrastianism, Andrastianism doesn't mean the Chantry.  Isn't Anders himself an Andrastian?

Modifié par HiroVoid, 10 novembre 2011 - 09:32 .

[General User]

Gervaise wrote...

Because there is nothing in the Chant of Light that talks about Divine Right but it does say that all are equally the Maker's children be they slave or noble and therefore should be treated in the way the Maker has set out in the Chant. Orlesian Divine Right allows a noble to beat a peasant to death or rape a merchant girl and there to be no come back againt them under the law. In fact if the girl's brother should defend his sister from the assault, he would be condemned to death for defying the noble's rights. The Chantry should have condemned this thinking from day one because dontradicts everything that the Chant of Light stands for. However, since the Chantry was first established by an Emperor of Orlais, I think it is fairly obvious why they have not done so.

It's not always that easy for a religious institution to curb the excesses of an aristocracy or nobility.  Take the Pax Dei movement in millennial Europe for example.  Only the combination of religious and popular pressure was able to put the breaks on the internecine warfare endemic to Western Europe at the time.

Modifié par General User, 10 novembre 2011 - 09:39 .