592 réponses à ce sujet

[AdmiralCheez]

KILL ALL THE REAPERS might just be a Shepard thing. You know, a character trait.

Like being an Alliance marine.

Or not being able to dance.

[GodWood]

Yes.

I don't throw away useful allies because of my own selfishness.

[Xilizhra]

GodWood wrote...

Yes.

I don't throw away useful allies because of my own selfishness.

Pity they don't hold the same consideration for you.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

IanPolaris wrote...

Well like I implied above, I think it depends on the Shepard.  If you are playing a Renegade Shep that wants to "win at any cost" (appropriate for the Torfan Background), then all TIM would have to do is tell her (my renegade Sheps tend to be FemSheps) and she would likely agree that this is the best way.  Futhermore after working with her for months TIM should know that she'd be reasonable about such an approach (and Miranda and Jacob could both attest to it as well).

Near as I can tell, TIM never gives Shep (no matter what background or decisions you made) the option.

So Cerberus hostility makes perfect sense for a Paragon Shep (esp one that nuked the Collector Base) but I am not sure it makes sense for some Renegade Sheps.

-Polaris

You make an excellent point, but as the endings in question would be renegade endings, the option to join with Cerberus in doing so may present itself.  Of course, one would wonder why TIM wouldn't just ask Shepard BEFORE fighting with him, but *SHRUGS*

[IanPolaris]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

KILL ALL THE REAPERS might just be a Shepard thing. You know, a character trait.

Like being an Alliance marine.

Or not being able to dance.

I don't see evidence of that in ME1 or ME2 though.  Shepard (apparently) can dance well enough to attract Morinth (if Paragon) for example, and there are many examples of Shepard agreeing with TIM (if renegade) that the ends do justify the means.  For example on Tali's Loyalty Mission, a Renegade Shep can explicitly endorse Admiral Daro'Xan's plan to reenslave all the Geth with the line, "I don't care how you win your war as long as you do."  That's exactly TIM's reasoning.

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Xilizhra wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Yes.

I don't throw away useful allies because of my own selfishness.

Pity they don't hold the same consideration for you.

A pity your own fellow marine and possible LI doesn't give you the same consideration (Ashley/Kaiden I am talking to YOU!)

-Polaris

[Xilizhra]

IanPolaris wrote...

Xilizhra wrote...

GodWood wrote...

Yes.

I don't throw away useful allies because of my own selfishness.

Pity they don't hold the same consideration for you.

A pity your own fellow marine and possible LI doesn't give you the same consideration (Ashley/Kaiden I am talking to YOU!)

-Polaris

I made a topic about that, actually.

[GodWood]

Xilizhra wrote...

GodWood wrote...
Yes.

I don't throw away useful allies because of my own selfishness.

Pity they don't hold the same consideration for you.

I blame bad writing.

[AdmiralCheez]

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't see evidence of that in ME1 or ME2 though.  Shepard (apparently) can dance well enough to attract Morinth (if Paragon) for example, and there are many examples of Shepard agreeing with TIM (if renegade) that the ends do justify the means.  For example on Tali's Loyalty Mission, a Renegade Shep can explicitly endorse Admiral Daro'Xan's plan to reenslave all the Geth with the line, "I don't care how you win your war as long as you do."  That's exactly TIM's reasoning.

-Polaris

Para!Shep didn't really dance, though.  S/He just swayed with the music and let the asari do the work.

However, KILL ALL THE REAPERS has always been a constant.

Plus, the Reapers know Shep is an enemy.  If TIM and Shep openly work together, it might tip them off.

[didymos1120]

Xilizhra wrote...

I made a topic about that, actually.

The VS?  Yeah, you and half the forum.

[The_Crazy_Hand]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

KILL ALL THE REAPERS might just be a Shepard thing. You know, a character trait.

Like being an Alliance marine.

Or not being able to dance.

All I can tell you is that evidently that is not necessarily true.

[IanPolaris]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

IanPolaris wrote...

I don't see evidence of that in ME1 or ME2 though.  Shepard (apparently) can dance well enough to attract Morinth (if Paragon) for example, and there are many examples of Shepard agreeing with TIM (if renegade) that the ends do justify the means.  For example on Tali's Loyalty Mission, a Renegade Shep can explicitly endorse Admiral Daro'Xan's plan to reenslave all the Geth with the line, "I don't care how you win your war as long as you do."  That's exactly TIM's reasoning.

-Polaris

Para!Shep didn't really dance, though.  S/He just swayed with the music and let the asari do the work.

However, KILL ALL THE REAPERS has always been a constant.

Plus, the Reapers know Shep is an enemy.  If TIM and Shep openly work together, it might tip them off.

That is assuming you have to fool the Reapers into thinking you are on their side, yes really you are (and fooling Sentients with millions upon millions of years of experience always seemed a chancy proposition at least to me) is necessary to fulfill the goal and we all know it's not.  Easier to help the Alliance/Shepard and then push for the ultimate 'final' solution....at least with SOME Sheps.

-Polaris

[AdmiralCheez]

The_Crazy_Hand wrote...

All I can tell you is that evidently that is not necessarily true.

Yeah, I read the spoilers, too.

But, you know, endgame.  The hero experiences the final temptation/revelation/whatevs.

[Someone With Mass]

GodWood wrote...
I blame bad writing.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad.

[snfonseka]

If they fight against Reapers, then yes.

[DiebytheSword]

IanPolaris wrote...

DiebytheSword wrote...

He may have been rushing, but he certainly could have prepared and studied the dead reaper better, he just chose not to because his resources don't have high enough worth to him.

Does this clarify where people like me stand?

Exactly.  To continue the Chess Analogy, one of the things that seperates Chess Masters and Grand Masters from talented amatures is their pawn resource management in the mid-game.  It is worth it to sacrifice a pawn?  Sometimes, but it has to be done carefully with the overall goal firmly in mind.

TIM uses his people the same way a Chess amature uses his pawns.

-Polaris

I'm not squarely in the TIM camp, but I can see his point of view from time to time, even if I don't always agree. 

The only reason I needed to stop and clarify was that Saphra had made some poorly educated chess moves of her own concerning my intentions and my stance on TIM's actions.

Chess is such a fascinating game.  I'm terrible at it, but I have my moments.  Still, I can appreciate the fine chess game played by most master villains.  The more elaborate, the more pleased I am.  Otherwise I wouldn't have a TIM avatar. 

That said, I stand by my previous assertions that TIM is not always the finest of Chess players.  It seems he gets overeager from time to time.  He calculates risk versus reward well sometimes, but hardly consistantly.

[GodWood]

Someone With Mass wrote...

GodWood wrote...
I blame bad writing.

Just because you don't like it doesn't make it bad.

Nah it's bad.

[AdmiralCheez]

IanPolaris wrote...

That is assuming you have to fool the Reapers into thinking you are on their side, yes really you are (and fooling Sentients with millions upon millions of years of experience always seemed a chancy proposition at least to me) is necessary to fulfill the goal and we all know it's not.  Easier to help the Alliance/Shepard and then push for the ultimate 'final' solution....at least with SOME Sheps.

-Polaris

TIM's a crafty bastard.  If anyone can double-cross the Reapers, it's him.

But see, TIM's willing to sacrifice the whole galaxy to get what he wants.  Shepard, on the other hand, is willing to sacrifice everything (s)he's ever gained to save the galaxy.  There's a fundamental difference in character right there, and it's what makes Shepard the hero and TIM the villain.

Besides, if TIM teams up with Shepard, he becomes a target the Reapers will go after.  Siding with them, for the time being, keeps his ass out of the fire.  The Reapers won't destroy what they can use, and they figure their indoctrination cannot be countered.

[Someone With Mass]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How do you know?

Common knowledge?

Normal people tend to be more cooperative when they're not tortured.

[IanPolaris]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

But see, TIM's willing to sacrifice the whole galaxy to get what he wants.  Shepard, on the other hand, is willing to sacrifice everything (s)he's ever gained to save the galaxy.  There's a fundamental difference in character right there, and it's what makes Shepard the hero and TIM the villain.

For Paragon Sheps, sure.  For many Renegade Sheps, I don't think this is true.  They want to defeat the Reapers by any means necessary, and if that means TIM's solution, I don't think many Renegade SHeps would lose a minute's worth of sleep over it.

-Polaris

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How do you know?

We would know if he'd tried, but he went for the most extreme solution first, as usual.

It has nothing to do with belief, it's knowledge.

What I meant was do you believe mass murder is excusable because sometimes someone gains from it?

[IanPolaris]

Someone With Mass wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

How do you know?

Common knowledge?

Normal people tend to be more cooperative when they're not tortured.

Not only that but tortured people tend to tell what they think the interrogator wants to hear which makes information chancey at best.  Physical discomfort has a place in rigorous interrogation, but it has to be done carefully.

-Polaris