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[Drone223]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Cerberus: If they're siding with the Reapers they have betrayed their own cause. At some point, advancement and protection of humanity has to come down to advancement and protection of humans.

What is humanity to you? Is it a creature or is it something more? I'd wager that to Cerberus humanity is more of a legacy than it is a being or beings. Protecting and advancing that legacy does not necessarily mean protecting ****** sapiens. The advance may be painful and frightening, but it will be for the best.

Being turned into Reaper goo isn't what I call "for the best of humanity" if comes down to that, (however this is for another disscusion)

Modifié par Drone223, 11 novembre 2011 - 03:46 .

[IanPolaris]

Drone223 wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Cerberus: If they're siding with the Reapers they have betrayed their own cause. At some point, advancement and protection of humanity has to come down to advancement and protection of humans.

What is humanity to you? Is it a creature or is it something more? I'd wager that to Cerberus humanity is more of a legacy than it is a being or beings. Protecting and advancing that legacy does not necessarily mean protecting ****** sapiens. The advance may be painful and frightening, but it will be for the best.

Being turned into Reaper goo isn't what I call "for thr best of humanity" if comes down to that

Except in ME3, TIM swallowed a bottle of 'stupid pills' and he does think this.   There is a reason why TIM thinks helping the Reapers is best for humanity (read TIM/Cerberus).  It's a really stupid reason given all interactions with Reaper Tech and Reaper Actifacts thus far, but there is a non-indoctrinated reason....

-Polaris

[CuddilyEvil93]

 I hated working with Cerberus. Made me feel like my Shep didn't stand for as much as I thought.

[AdmiralCheez]

Actually TIM thinks he can control the Reapers. So when he sides with them, he's actually double-dealing, just like the sneaky little bastard he is.

[AdmiralCheez]

Also, he's right, and it's possible. You actually have the option to assume control of the entire Reaper armada at the end of the game. So it's not like he's just lost all his TIM-ness or anything.

[IanPolaris]

What Admiral Cheez said, except I didn't want to put even hidden spoilers. However, when you look at the history of trying to control Reaper Tech, it's pretty clear that TIM swallowed a whole bottle of stupid pills.

-Polaris

Edit:  That is a very DEM solution and there is no realistic indication it's possible or even desirable until the very end.  If you want to be technical, the "perfect ending is" to have Shepard become one with the Reapers which is about the most evil ending I can imagine.

Modifié par IanPolaris, 11 novembre 2011 - 04:00 .

[jbblue05]

No, what's happening in ME3 is the Reapers are invading, as we knew they always would, and that the galaxy is composed of various races who don't see eye-to-eye and all have their own interests, something else we've always known. Your notion that the Reapers allowed Shep to destroy the Alpha Relay on purpose is just pure conspiracy theory (i.e., long on assertion, short on evidence).

So the Reapers are invading but they are not hitting multiple star systems=]. My conspiracy theory has as much evidence as Kenson telling you the Reapers want the Alpha Relay

[AdmiralCheez]

That's never stopped him from trying, though. Collector Base, ME: Retribution... It's kind of his unique shtick at this point.

But still, the fact that he was right in the end may make all the sacrifice worth it, according to Cerberus fandork logic.

[IanPolaris]

Saphra Deden wrote...

TIM's plan in ME3 is just wasteful.

Agreed.  Given that what TIM wants is one of the possibilities all along, TIM should be helping Shep (and guiding him to the 'Cerberus' solution) and not try to oppose him.

-Polaris

[AdmiralCheez]

@Ian: I think that's more of an Easter Egg ending, a la being able to choose Morinth over Samara if you have enough persuasion points.

And TIM was always wasteful, BT-dubs.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 11 novembre 2011 - 04:07 .

[IanPolaris]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

That's never stopped him from trying, though. Collector Base, ME: Retribution... It's kind of his unique shtick at this point.

But still, the fact that he was right in the end may make all the sacrifice worth it, according to Cerberus fandork logic.

I will repeat what I said above.  If that were so, TIM should be working with Shep to try to pull it off rather than getting crosswise of the one person that could ruin it all (and TIM knows Shep can ruin it all).  I will also say this, it's not really a unique Shtik, and even if possible, I point to Cerberus' history with such projects which should give even TIM a moment of salutory caution (Project Overlord for starts).

-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

AdmiralCheez wrote...

@Ian: I think that's more of an Easter Egg ending, a la being able to choose Morinth over Samara if you have enough persuasion points.

And TIM was always wasteful, BT-dubs.

The Dev Notes call what I hid the "perfect" ending, however which seem to argue against it being a bad but doable 'easter egg' ending.

-Polaris

[AdmiralCheez]

@Ian: TIM doesn't do caution.

Remember that time he brought a dead guy to life and blew billions of credits rebuilding a ship, then threw it repeatedly into traps on the off-chance he might gain something from it?

[AdmiralCheez]

So why should you be surprised with this? It's pretty much exactly what I'd expect from him. He's absolutely reckless, and he's willing to gamble with the whole galaxy if it means he might gain something big enough.

That makes him dangerous and absolutely abhorrent, but still, you gotta admire him a little.

Modifié par AdmiralCheez, 11 novembre 2011 - 04:18 .

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

AdmiralCheez wrote...

So why should you be surprised with this? It's pretty much exactly what I'd expect from him. He's absolutely reckless,

When is he ever reckless?

I can agree with this point.  Tim himself is never reckless.  Tim does, however, see all of his resources as completely expendable for the "greater good".  Cerberus' military arm cell leaders are far worse.

[AdmiralCheez]

Saphra Deden wrote...

When is he ever reckless?

ALL.  THE DAMN.  TIME.

Let's kill babies to unlock biotic potential!  What could possibly go wrong?

Let's strap up this guy's autistic brother into a very painful interface so he can control the geth!  What could possibly go wrong?

Let's experiment on live rachni!  What could possibly go wrong?

Let's see if we can use husks and Thorian creepers for slave labor!  What could possibly go wrong?

Let's give this Grayson guy Reaper implants!  What could possibly go wrong?

And then he basically sacrifices an entire colony (Horizon) to prove a hunch.  Then sends his billion dollar baby knowingly into a trap.

And let's not discuss all the fun Cerb's having in Invasion right now.

Look.  You can use the "independent cells" excuse all you want, but he's supposed to be the guy in charge, and he keeps a close enough eye on all of them to be considered at least partially responsible.

TIM's a ruthless gambler.  I'm not saying it's a bad thing--it's one of the traits that makes him a fascinating character, a powerful ally, and a dangerous enemy.

[GMagnum]

dam cheez went hard as fuk tbh id hate 2 be da person dat gotta reply to her tbh

[DiebytheSword]

Saphra Deden wrote...

How does that make Cerberus different from anyone else? All governments, all people, will sacrifice things if they need to in order to accomplish a goal. You don't want to go to work but you need money so you sacrifice some of your happiness to go to work.

TIM bringing back Shepard was a bit of a gamble, but nothing else he did.

There is a difference between sacrificing what is neccesary and throwing fodder to the wolves.  To be fair cerberus does not often do the latter, but it does it enough.  Lives are not things to be sacrificed lightly, I'm not sure that Cerberus' gain is always justified in costs.